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Napa Pipe: Big project, big questions for county
Sunday, October 25, 2009
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On the east bank of the Napa River, where vestiges of a 154-acre industrial pipe factory still stand, Napa Pipe developers are proposing a massive mixed-use development, the largest of its kind in Napa County history.

Napa Pipe would feature 2,580 small homes — reduced last year from 3,600 — a retirement center, hotel, restaurants, retail and office space and more. The project is headed to the Napa County Board of Supervisors for a vote next year, and if approved could be completed by 2022.
Since it was first proposed by Napa Redevelopment Partners three years ago, Napa Pipe has whipped up frenzied debate.

The fight has its roots in a landmark 1968 decision, when Napa County adopted the Agricultural Preserve and solidified one basic tenet: Agriculture is the best use of unincorporated county land.
Yet with pressure from the state to build affordable housing, it’s hotly disputed whether a large residential development at the industrial Napa Pipe site would threaten or further Napa County’s planning goals.

Proponents of the project say the industrial site is a perfect place to build homes without infringing on agricultural land.
Critics say the project is unnecessarily huge and lacks the necessary infrastructure.

“There are a number of really interesting planning questions at the point here,” Napa County Planning Director Hillary Gitelman said. “One is that the county is required, like all local agencies in California, to plan for and accommodate low-income housing. Being an unincorporated county that’s dedicated to preserving agriculture and open space and to directing urban growth into urbanized areas, the county has historically found it challenging, to say the least, to meet these state requirements.”

Napa Pipe opponents cite the long-standing local principle that cities are for housing and Napa County is for grapes.

“Napa County has, since the early 1970s, said that urban development belonged in the cities,” said Ginny Simms, a former Napa County supervisor and vocal critic of Napa Pipe. “Residential development is certainly one of those things that Napa County does not encourage in county areas. This development proposes to build a city about the size of St. Helena in an industrial area and, philosophically, that is not in keeping with our values.”

Eve Kahn, a local Realtor and like Simms a founding member of Get A Grip on Growth, acknowledged that Napa Pipe could very well provide much-needed affordable housing. “But to accomplish this, we need to throw out all the values that we created and that have made us the envy of counties and cities around the country and the world,” she said.

Others say Napa Pipe could be good for the Ag Preserve.

“In order to avoid sprawl into our ag and open space areas, we need to build up and not out,” said Napa County Supervisor Mark Luce. “This is one of the rare projects that in Napa can probably do that with minimum disruption.”

Under state law, supervisors have to plan for hundreds of affordable homes somewhere, Luce said. “If not this project, then where?”

“Napa County has a real conundrum with Napa Pipe,” Supervisor Bill Dodd said. “State housing policy requires the county to plan for housing. The county strives to protect agriculture, and not having a certified housing (plan) absolutely threatens the Ag Preserve.”

State law allows private citizens to sue if counties don’t comply with housing mandates, leaving open the prospect that counties lose control of land-use decisions. Said Dodd, “The result could very well be a judge overturning (Napa County’s growth restrictions) and setting some ag land as available for housing.”

Ultimately, Napa Pipe developer Keith Rogal said he believes the project could be “as important for protecting and preserving Napa as the Ag Preserve.”

“This is really the one big chance to do this,” Rogal said. “There isn’t another property that is urbanized, that has the physical resources to be developed in this way, in a way that can absorb our housing needs for the affordable housing requirements, which is both a moral and legal imperative.”

Said Rogal, “The property’s already paved. Something’s going to be on it. The people who are commuting here, they already are alive, and the jobs already are created. I think there’s a chance to be not just responsible but to do something exemplary.”
64 comment(s)

def123 wrote on Oct 25, 2009 1:02 AM:

" The best solution may be to simply secede from the State of California and then there is no reason to even think about proceeding with this greed driven project. Might solve a whole lot of other problems too. Why should we let a bunch of incompetents politicos in Sacramento and from Los Angeles tell us what to do? "

jefferson wrote on Oct 25, 2009 6:40 AM:

" Our Supes are aruging what ever city has found destructive and have reversed. That is building all the low income housing in one area and complex of high rises. This has created ghettos and crime. And thisis their primary argument?! Very questionable leadership.

The bottom line is that developers make money off of development. They cash in and then leave town.

The city is already unable to finance its current infrastructure and his burdened with police/fire salaries and pension plans. Napa Pipe/Keith Rogalville will bankrupt Napa. "

97526 wrote on Oct 25, 2009 7:47 AM:

" Cool! I can't wait to go swimming in an old greasy dry dock! "

R K Savae wrote on Oct 25, 2009 7:58 AM:

" Have these "people " That are considering Building Homes and resturaunts and the like on that land thought about the fact that "ASBESTOS" was used for years in that plant and the Kaiser Steel Plant that was adjacent to it? Now I'm not an expert but won't that present health issues. Or do they just not care? "

willy m wrote on Oct 25, 2009 8:20 AM:

" Has anyone considered the huge impact on traffic? We already have clogged highways, take Jamison Canyon for example....Let's preserve the country ag feel of this great valley. "

suma1971 wrote on Oct 25, 2009 8:29 AM:

" I agree with Jefferson - plus add in that a development this size would need its own fire station and a school, as Phillips and Snow would be over-whelmed. Our property taxes will go sky high to pay for this! Throw in the mix of cars, too many people, stoplights, and the inevitable gas stations, banks and shops and you get one BIG mess. Let's stop this one COLD. Napa is too big already. "

GET REAL wrote on Oct 25, 2009 8:55 AM:

" Hey what a concept, Marin County has "Marin City." Maybe Napa County can have "Napa Pipe." It can be its own identity where all the high concentrated section 8 and low income housing is located. The rest of Napa can stay "Napa-Napa." "

Cadence wrote on Oct 25, 2009 9:01 AM:

" So exactly what is this - is it low income housing? Is it affordable housing? The two terms are used interchangeably and they are not the same.
The now demolished pink palace in San Francisco was low income housing. The Sunnydale projects in San Francisco are low income housing. Like it or not, both are known as breeding grounds for gangs and crime. And be aware, busier low income centers like Oakland can and do identify less crowded low income projects and encourage their wait-listed section 8 voucher holders to move and use their vouchers in other counties.
Affordable housing are those homes sold at below market rate to approved buyers and they are subsidized by fellow buyers who then pay more.
So is Napa Pipe BOTH low income and affordable? And who in his right mind will be the chump willing to subsidize the affordable housing units by paying more to live in a dense neighborhood that includes high rise, low income projects? Even if the chump gets a river view?
The negative aspects of thousands of new residents could be diluted by dotting them throughout the county. Better yet, why hasn't any local legislator looked into challenging the ABAG dictatorship? We sure as heck didn't get to vote for ABAG, did we? "

Just Concerned wrote on Oct 25, 2009 9:31 AM:

" What happens when this development incorporates and becomes a city, much like AmCan did. Then where does the county put its low income house? We always put our ABAG low income housing mandates in south-county. Now, they're sitting pretty with more than their fair share and the county needs to find property or stop developing. I think a small area of Napa County extends on the other side of I-80... how about there? "

reader wrote on Oct 25, 2009 9:35 AM:

" I'm just guessing but I wouldn't be surprised if the "pressure from the state" to build affordable housing throughout CA is being pushed from behind by lobbyists who work for big developers. This needs to be exposed. "

napalove wrote on Oct 25, 2009 9:44 AM:

" Ginny Simms needs to do a reality check. Just because we have not done it before doesn’t make it a bad idea or taboo. I what we have been doing up until now clearly hasn’t worked because we continue to get sued or are threatened to be sued because of our planning principles. It is an empty piece of concrete, what better way to protect ag land. "

109823 wrote on Oct 25, 2009 9:57 AM:

" The NVR must be low on topics to devote 5 headlines to Napa Pipe. "

So It Goes wrote on Oct 25, 2009 10:15 AM:

" Did this developer really say,
"This is really the one big chance to do this...”
AND
“...which is both a moral and legal imperative.”

Boy, he went with the sure fire marketing stratigies of:
"Better grab it, It's your last chance"
AND...
"It's your moral and legal obligation as a responsible person."

These days people are more savvy to these old marketing/fear/moral obligation tactics.

Let the State sue us.
We should sue them right back!
We're in a fiscal crisis here.

I'm not buying the arguement, "But we have to walk over that cliff over there...We have no other choices."

I can see this attitude coming from this developer and his group of investors, but I would expect better from those we elected to protect our city financially.

Why can't we at least summit a request for a reprieve from this housing mandate due to our State being in a fiscal crisis?

Building more stuff is like eating more stuff.
Eventually you have to say,
“Boy I can’t fit into my clothes any more, and I can hardly catch my breath when I walk up the stairs.” I’m Way Too Fat.

We should push the plate away now before we fall over and die.
It should be OUR choice to survive and thrive as a healthy community. "

bennyd wrote on Oct 25, 2009 10:28 AM:

" Affordable housing should be the term used for this project. It is clear that most professional and highly skilled jobs have taken a hit on earning power. Even with this sad reality we still need to provide housing for everybody who works in this county. The hospitality industry which supports the ag business must work together to form a healthy economy for all of Napa. The Napa Pipe development can solve placement of these citizens and can provide a rail link directly to downtown Napa, where it is clear that it's becoming a fine destination for needed tourism, the customers of our great wines. "

kkjp wrote on Oct 25, 2009 10:47 AM:

" Supervisors: While it may be tempting to approve this project and in one fell swoop satisfy the county's affordable housing mandates for the next 20 years, consider this: Your approval of this project will be your legacy; what you will be remembered for long after your tenure on the board has ended. Napa Pipe's monstrous scope and long-lasting impacts will overshadow any positive contributions you may have made as members of the Board. Is that how you want to be remembered? "

winelover80 wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:04 AM:

" Luce is on the ball on this one. I think he is actually listening to his constituents on this one. He has clearly thought this one through. I can’t say that for the rest of the Board. I think they need to start really hearing what the community is saying out there. It sounds from Dodd’s comments that he is coming around. I hope for Dillion’s sake she starts to see the potential of Napa Pipe "

Cadence wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:10 AM:

" You open with "affordable housing," bennyd. Then you say "we must provide housing for everybody who works in this county."
Are you saying, bennyd, that hotel maids will qualify for AFFORDABLE housing?
Please drop the double talk.
If we the taxpayers provide (pay for or subsidize) housing, that's LOW INCOME housing, bennyd. And you know that many, many hospitality workers fall into the low income category and do NOT earn enough for "affordable" housing.
Oakland has a lot of low income housing. So does Solano County. Neither has a thriving tourism industry.
Connect the dots. "

cheezcakemaker wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:42 AM:

" Fastforward to year 2022:

The second thing touists will see driving into the valley is the Napa Pipe with highrise slums surrounded by industrial buildings and a view of a swamp! "Woopee" they will say, let's take our money and keep driving to Sonoma.

Why is there a huge drive for 'affordable housing'? You can buy a house right now for less than you would pay in rent and the FHA is insuring 100% financing. "

So It Goes wrote on Oct 25, 2009 12:19 PM:

" Winelover80
I really don't think these above mentioned supervisors appreciate you reminding Napa voters how their feelings on this Napa Pipe project might be so far from the community’s feelings.
Way to sink their hopes of being repected and re-elected!!
Maybe Luce and Dodd will come around to do what is best for the community.
And mass housing at Napa Pipe is NOT it. "

bennyd wrote on Oct 25, 2009 12:49 PM:

" Cadence- It sounds like you are oblivious to many hard working professionals problems in earning power. You sound like you look down your nose at many hard working people...I did not mention "hotel maids" but since you mention it, they need accessible shelter too. You seem in your remarks condescending and elitist. The fact is that even people with degrees and many years of experience are having a hard time earning a living. having high quality transit and walkable housing is beneficial to more people than you care to acknowledge. It would also improve mobility to and from the Valley. And by the way, I pay Taxes too, I just don't judge other peoples needs. "

Joe B wrote on Oct 25, 2009 1:09 PM:

" Mixed use is bogus, look at the vacancies downtown. The only trump card Rogal has on this project is this state mandate, otherwise it is DOA. Maybe NVR should call it the Napa Pipe Projects. What is the possibility for low income housing in Napa? The Emperor has no clothes! I'm with "So it goes" let the state sue. "

sharonden wrote on Oct 25, 2009 1:27 PM:

" Mark Luce seems to be the only supervisor that is grounded in reality, and truly has the best interest of Napa County in mind.

It is hard to believe how naive people are. Somehow they think that developers equate to greed. Developers are the visonaries whom take great risks, use a plethora of expertise, invest enormous amounts of time and money, and give people an environment in which to succeed in life.

The "Napa Pipe" area has been a muck of past and/or diminishing enterprise for years, where a developer is willing to help create a gateway to Napa County inclusive of needed development. "

Joe B wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:02 PM:

" What is the reality? Are we into a long economic downturn? If so what is that impact going to be on this project going forward? Would it be a good idea, turning blight. What would that do for those of us who enjoy Kennedy Park? All of us who have taken risks in this economy have had to bite the bullet. The stakeholders of this project will continue to lobby city hall and enroll more articles in NVR because they have a lot at stake. Maybe they are philanthropists. I doubt it. This project may be a simple solution for a state mandate but what is it going to be for Napans, does it have a viable future? "

Paddy wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:13 PM:

" The numbers in this EIR are best case. What are the worst case numbers? Let's say 5 or 6 people per unit. That would be 10,000 - 13,000 new residents, not the 5,000 they want you to believe.

These new residents will not use public transportation any more than today's residents us VINE and rail. We'll see 4,000 to 8,000 more cars on the roads of Napa County every day. Most of them in Napa.

Who actually believes the residents of Napa are so gullible and ignorant to believe these low-ball figures? It's both distressing and insulting. "

Cadence wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:14 PM:

" funny, bennyd, actually I am a hard working individual myself. I work in a nearby town. I work across the street from a low income housing project that was built with promises of senior housing, the working poor, proximity to buses and schools, etc.
I get to see for myself what has shaped my opinion of low cost housing projects. This isn't for seniors after all. If the tenants work, it must be at night because during the day lots of them hang out on their front porches. It has lots of police activity; on a good day, I watch the police detain small time dealers on the sidewalk curb.
You can call it elitism. I call it reality. "

Paddy wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:17 PM:

" Why not use this property to help dismantle the mothball fleet? Dredge the river and begin towing some of those ships this way. "

Ballermjq wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:39 PM:

" What is people’s obsession with keeping the status quo? Last year we elected a President solely based on the idea of change. We were all whipped up into a frenzy over a man who promised to CHANGE the way things were done. I think we need a little bit of that spirit here in Napa. Things are not going great here. I am not saying that Napa Pipe is that agent of change, however to suggest that we shouldn’t do it because that has not been our philosophy to me is ridiculous. "

pipe wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:40 PM:

" Dodd is on the ball here not only does not having a housing plan put our ag land at risk it also puts us at risk to law suits that we can ill afford right now. Whether you like it or not Napa Pipe is the answer and the best opportunity for Napa to solve its’ housing challenges. "

Paddy wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:54 PM:

" This project, the decades of development and the aftermath of what the real gateway to wine country will look like will kill tourism. This is a plan will cut off the hand that feeds us. "

bennyd wrote on Oct 25, 2009 5:04 PM:

" Cadence- I live in Napa. My concern is for the economic and sustainable growth here. The tourism industry along with the Agri business make Napa a very desirable destination and a large employer of many diverse jobs. this is a very unique community that must keep it's eye on the fluid transit of tourists and commuters. You may want to consider moving to Napa when this mix of transit and walkable housing becomes a reality for local workers who desire a better way of getting to work each day. "

So It Goes wrote on Oct 25, 2009 6:37 PM:

" I'm wondering why there are so few pro Napa Pipe/Rogal bloggers chiming in today??
So far only:
winelover80
Sharonden
Napalove
bennyd

Did someone not pass on the memo to the Rogal crew or has team Rogal had to downsize?

Maybe all their second and third screen names got deleated by the Register. "

cpslowine wrote on Oct 25, 2009 6:39 PM:

" Please note that Napa Pipe is NOT a "Low Income" Housing "Project." It is meant to provide affordable housing to entry level home buyers, singles, retirees, and empty nesters. To qualify to build the development will have to offer a certain portion as "Section 8", but not the entire neighborhood. Napa Pipe will not be over run with "hoodlums" or have laundry hanging from the railings. Instead it will be a beautiful walkable neighborhood with a population of all ages. "

Cadence wrote on Oct 25, 2009 6:40 PM:

" bennyd, I also live in Napa. I am a reviled kommuter but I won't live where I work anymore - there's too much crime.
I've seen the crime increase proportionately as the numbers of low cost units have grown. It's not a coincidence.
When I read the town's news, I see that the biggest majority of arrests, drive-bys, dealing, etc., occur in its many low cost housing projects and neighborhoods.
I do feel sorry for the town's old-timers. Many retired in their paid for homes and saw their modest neighborhoods deteriorate as neighbors moved "up" into newer affordable homes. Many of these same retirees are afraid to go out after dark and in broad daylight now, and rightly so. They can't afford to move.
The streets are crowded and there are a lot more signals than there were 10 years ago. Lots of new turn pockets, too. They don't help.
The town is rapidly approaching bankruptcy although it has several major employers.
The schools are broke and broken.
Public safety costs are sky high.
With every economic downturn, low cost housing projects were built to provide revenue and jobs. A lot of these projects are owned by out of town investors.
Turns out these projects were like a payday loan - get the cash now, but the interest is staggering.
And the oddest thing of all is that I do not see the projects' residents moving up in the world. I don't see them heading to college or job training, even when it was all free and baby-sitting thrown in, too! What I do see is the incessant growth of a culture of entitlement, period.
Seems like an odd thing to wish on Napa. "

bennyd wrote on Oct 25, 2009 7:12 PM:

" Cadence, I'm sorry you see such misery on a daily basis. The Napa I see has so much potential as a diverse cultural modern city, that is in the heart of the wine country. Maybe your kids or grand kids have more hope than most of the negative and less than encouraged adults here. "

So It Goes wrote on Oct 25, 2009 7:43 PM:

" Gee,
The water looks really blue in the picture above.

Is the developer going to keep adding blue dye to the river too.
Or is it going to be a one time deal? "

shareathought wrote on Oct 25, 2009 7:52 PM:

" jefferson (10/25, 6:40AM) wrote:
"The bottom line is that developers make money off of development. They cash in and then leave..."

...us to support their "baby".


Cadence (10/25, 9:01AM) asks:
"So exactly what is this - is it low income housing? Is it affordable housing?"

Low income is less-than the median income (a larger than average percent of Napa residents live below median income, a larger than average percentage of residents live below the poverty level), so it is not low-income development.

Affordable housing is what the market can handle so, this development would be built primarily for others from around the bay area and/or those who need a second home.


So-It-Goes (10/25,10:15AM) wrote:
"We're in a fiscal crisis here."

I agree.


sharonden (10/25, 1:27PM) wrote:
" Mark Luce seems to be the only supervisor that is grounded in reality..."
and
"Developers are the visonaries...and give people an environment in which to succeed in life.'

(Developers sound almost god-like. They help us succeed?)


Joe-B (10/25, 3:02PM) your comments: 1:09PM: "Mixed use is bogus..." and at 3:02PM: "What is the reality?"

are appreciated.


pipe (10/25, 3:40PM) wrote:
"Dodd is on the ball here...
"Whether you like it or not Napa Pipe is..."

Have the investors already been assured of this projects approval?


Paddy, I agree we will be left with "the aftermath". "

napaoldguy wrote on Oct 25, 2009 9:07 PM:

" It will be low income and will eventually look like west wood. So that means 10 -15 people per house hold and 5 -10 cars per household wether they work or not. That is where I would want to stay in a Hotel.I think it will be another Copia as far as businesses. Lets fix down town instaed of tying to create anther on "

LMW wrote on Oct 25, 2009 9:20 PM:

" yes, i have a question? Whats Grabill phone number?

I'd like to share my thoughts with him regarding schools, our existing developments and Children...seems we have lots in common.

the way we need to live! "

MyWrites wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:37 PM:

" Let us not forget that Mr. Rogal’s allegiance is to his investors not the people of Napa. He came here to make money through “development”.

And what happens after this project is finished? We will have more people living in Napa and ABAG will again demand that our ratios are out of whack and we need to build yet more low inome housing.

I agree with reader - time for the NVR to do an in depth investigation into ABAG and its dictates from Sacramento. This entire arrangement has big development fingerprints all over it. If NVR isn’t interested perhaps the Chronicle might take it on.

Seems to me the county has all but approved this. Rogal and group have thrown so much money at the project (including the last election) that county officials have just rolled over.

The new plan shows a tiny (miniscule) light industry area. What a joke. I think we were originally led to believe there would be somewhat more space dedicated to facilities that would provide jobs for the residents. And now a hotel! It just keeps getting better... "

Paddy wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:55 PM:

" Cadence - Napa is actually thriving today because Napa didn't go through a building explosion as those communities did who truly are suffering. Because of the slow and controlled growth policies we enjoy Napa did not have thousands of foreclosures; we have too many but it's 'manageable'. A development like this would have created financial havoc.

Again, this project will not create very many long term jobs. It will put thousands of more children in stressed schools and thousands of more cars on the roads driving to where the jobs really are. "

5th generation napan wrote on Oct 26, 2009 8:17 AM:

" Besides loosing the site for "real" blue collar jobs, (which I feel the town seems to dislike) that pay liveable wages.

Besides not planning or even wanting to take responsibility for schools, fire, police / sherrif, waste water sewage, or traffic (answer, we can't be held for all the existing woes surrounding us).

What will it be like for the people to grow their nice organic garden in lands that had, industrial waste, PCB's, Heavy Metals, Solvents, Asbestos, Paint/Coatings, Welding fillers, Metal Pipe leaching rust and Chemicals, leaching into the ground where your fresh lettus, and tomatoes would grow. But, I guess this is for childless, professional, couples, and childless seniors, and childless, low income population to occupy that would only have a small bonsi plant and not a garden!

You know we are never to be allowed to go into the Mare Island wet land because they only decontaminated the top 4 feet and federal law requires the wet land to be decontaminated to 8 feet in depth. The navy said were done and walked away leaving the department of interior with acres of land that the public is only allowed to venture into one a year during the "fly way" weekend.

That's the federal govenment with money!, How can a developer assure the public and residence the site will be cleaned up? Love cannal anyone?

Before you put the cart before the horse, Mandate a complete profile and survey of the land before you even talk about a planned community thats perfect for Napa. Atlease when you identify the toxic areas that can't be cleaned up you will know were to put the low income families, schools, and elderly at! It only makes planning sense! "

napalove wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:26 AM:

" Why is everyone convinced that Rogal and his partners are just going to build Napa Pipe and leave? I mean they built Carneros and are still here in fact I think Rogal lives at Carneros. I really believe we need to stop with the scare tactics and hysteria and focus on having a real discussion about the issues are county is facing. Napa Pipe could be a great revenue generator for our County and it could provide much needed construction jobs. "

winkyface wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:48 AM:

" Paddy – the problem in our county is not a lack of jobs, it is the fact that the people that work here have to commute in from Vallejo and Fairfield because they can’t afford to live in Napa.

Let’s get real here, we have worked hard to keep Napa a certain way and that has caused home prices to go up, we are now suffering from the repercussions of this with thousands of people commuting into Napa. We need to start to reverse that course and give those that commute in a real option of a place that they can afford in Napa. Napa Pipe is designed to do exactly that. "

littleonett wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:49 AM:

" Just a quick lesson in sustainability for everyone. One of the most sustainable cities in the world is New York. Why you ask? Because it is densely populated with a mass transit system, meaning that most people don’t have a car, or if they do, they don’t use it that often. That is one of the main reasons why Napa Pipe got LEED certification, because it is more dense, services will be closer and people will not have to use their cars to get around and if they do the drives are shorter. "

urte wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:53 AM:

" Whenever an article appears and there are some positive comments...a handful of dissenters appear and they are the same folks over and over...and the same arguments over and over...

As several comments already suggest...there is a distinction between "low income" and affordable housing..! Some make it sound as though this is going to be huts for the migrant workers instead of affordable housing for maybe young families...singles starting out...or seniors who want to scale down.
The other comments that I can only shake my head at are that the developer is only doing this to make money...and to that I say...so...? Is there something wrong with making a profit for a product that is needed and wanted...?
The developer has said that he will clean the site up in accordance with the recommendations by the environmental folks...so if Napa Pipe does not happen ...it just sits there for years to come...and continues to bleed into the river...is that scenario preferred...?
For the life of me I can only see a win...win...situation...
From all I have read and heard about the project there will be lots of green belts...amenities for family fun and recreation...etc...!

I would much prefer having a view of that as I come into town than what there is now ...and as far as ag land ...there is still plenty of land available to grow grapes...don't believe they ...the grapes...would do well on a former industrial site...!

Lots of "kudos" go to the developer for his patience and persistance...I for one will do everything I can to support the efforts because I truly believe that this is needed in Napa and think that once folks get their heads into the sunshine they will see the light..! "

manman wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:54 AM:

" I feel like we keep having to have this discussion over and over again about the difference between affordable housing, which is mandated by the state that the county builds, and affordable homes, which are homes that the average working family is able to afford. Napa Pipe is not talking about building Section 8 housing or creating a ghetto or slums. It is designating a portion of the homes as affordable homes that people will have to apply for to buy at a reduced rate and with a special mortgage. I am impressed that they are actually planning on building these homes as opposed to paying a fee in lieu of actually building them. I am appalled at the lack of empathy that we have for our fellow Napans that are less fortunate than some of us that are able to afford large homes. Who are we to decide who deserves to live in this beautiful county? I think it is time for those of you who have a sense of moral and monetary superiority to come down from their pedestal and see that there is a need for these homes and to get on board. "

napastudent2 wrote on Oct 26, 2009 10:46 AM:

" I am with you URTE. It is the same old tired voices. I hope the Board does not look at these comments and think that they represent the community. The problem is that those that support Napa Pipe work for a living and don’t have the time to jump online and post comments every 2 minutes. Especially some of the younger folks in Napa like myself. I love the idea of Napa Pipe and hope to live there someday. "

5th generation napan wrote on Oct 26, 2009 10:54 AM:

" I only suggest they tell everyone exactly whats out there and what has to be done to fix it, number one.

Number two, construction jobs are good but not sustainable. When the construction is done the jobs are gone!

But give me a break, since Napa has become "Wine Yuppie" the middle class has lost tremendous gournd.

And as far as it being a selfcontained local? Well I'm sorry but look at Brownsvalley, you have a grocery store there, but everything else requires travel. Hardware, clothing, gas, hobbies, furniture, movies, restaruants, middle school and up,everything requires travel!

So is Napa Pipe going to be a self contained city?

Just for once people can we get solid answers before a project gets built. Maybe just maybe that was the intent of a PROPERLY DONE EIR.
All I want is facts to make a decision, not just hear say, guesses, promises, of what this project should be. For once I'd like to see the homework done!
Whats the cost to improve roads to the project? Who pays, How many bus trips for kids to school? Which schools will be impacted, where will they be bused? What kind of industry can be there, What affect will this have on the Napa Airport? Cost of increased sherrif deputies? how many extra needed? How much consumption of water used over what the industries had used? What source? How treated? the list goes on!

Do The Homework before everyone decides this is a good project. LEED is just a method of construction, Not sustainability!

I don't deny this could be a good project, I just have only heard talk.
And yes I read the EIR and what was written is junk! Do it right for once! "

Paddy wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:13 AM:

" winkyface - there will be a slurry of short term jobs mostly held by workers who live outside of Napa. The work will slam the Napa environment with traffic, smog and ruined roads. There will be no return from this impact because it will be followed by thousands of new inhabitants who will have to travel outside of Napa for work. By their own admission:

"Napa Pipe would add 2,730 housing units (including the senior center), 5,901 new residents and 721 jobs."

The vast majority of these jobs will be low-paying hospitality positions which we have plenty of now. I say use Napa Pipe to dismantle the Mothball Fleet in the bay. Now we're talking long term jobs for years to come with no additional infrastructure and minimal retooling. "

Paddy wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:22 AM:

" littleonett - I can't wait to be just like New York City!!!!!

The nicest places in the world (like Napa) are as different than NYC as Earth is from Mercury. "

Paddy wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:28 AM:

" urte and napastudent2 - the vast majority of commentors on are against this project and the EIR now provides us with clear insight into the disaster that awaits with this development. You are both in the minority, I hope the Supervisors and Council closely review these comments to understand how so many of us feel about this project. It's too big, to fast with too many open ended issues. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Oct 26, 2009 2:26 PM:

" Since Napa Pipe has no backbone without ABAG, we really need to dig the root of this problem out of the hole.

Mill Valley is our role model. Other Marin County towns have fought ABAG and Grabhill type attorneys. They have formed a group called friends of Mill Valley. If you do a google search on it, you can learn what they, as a community, have done to fight this growth machine. We need to do this in Napa County. We need to study what other cities have done to fight ABAG off. We need to start our own "Friends of Napa Valley" organization. How can we get started? It would be nice to have a land use attorney on board. If Marin can do it, we can. "

freeport56 wrote on Oct 26, 2009 3:39 PM:

" Again, everyone is missing the real issues here. It is ABag and the states housing requirement per county that has to go. We have limits on water and cannot support more homes over our agricultural lands.

Napa pipe should be mixed use and not a condo community. By the time it gets approved, it will be unafforadable property. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Oct 26, 2009 4:08 PM:

" Here's something I discovered about ABAG today. ABAG defines affordable housing as housing that costs equal to or less than a third of family income.

If we analyze this figure in relationship to $12 an hour hospitality incomes, and multiply it by two for a "family" (which is highly improbably given that many, if not most hospitality jobs are less than fulltime, we arrive at $1267. This means that in order for housing to qualify as "affordable" for a hospitality worker, their housing payment cannot exceed $1267 per month.

Even with mortgage incentives, $1267 doesn't buy much house. If we're talking about a "rental" market rather than a "resale" market, then it's another matter altogether.

So, let's be truthful here. If the goal is to provide housing for the lower income workers of Napa County, then expanding the rental market would be the goal. But that's not the goal now is it. "

So It Goes wrote on Oct 26, 2009 5:30 PM:

" I was wondering where Rogal's bloggers were. They must have been out of town yesterday or added new screen names for themselves.

Your a very condescending new group today. Bad weekend?

What's got your feathers all ruffled?
Legitimate public conserns you feel the need to discount as unimportant and "tired"?
tisk, tisk.. "

toobuff wrote on Oct 26, 2009 8:25 PM:

" some people on here complaining about rogal "cashing in and leaving town after the project is over" forgot who developed carneros inn... also, i read a lot of complaints about napa pipe, but ont once have a read an alternative solution to our county's low income housing problem, or a solution to those who are first time home buyers that don't want to buy an overpriced house in napa, but still want to live in napa. "

toobuff wrote on Oct 26, 2009 8:27 PM:

" so it goes, its called facebook, most people these days use that "

sharonden wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:15 PM:

" Napa Pipe is an investment. A developer has met the criteria to move forward with sound proposal. People with little more to do than criticize are not exemplary of Napa Valley. The Valley is filled with others who have invested in the promise and potential of the future. Napa Pipe ideally supports the best growth practices and creates a substantial solution for a multitude of issues. "

LMW wrote on Oct 26, 2009 10:07 PM:

" no right here, so It goes!

60 days to comment, so email it, fax it, write it or drop it off. I'd like to move forward so I continue with what I love doing and I believe someone knows what I am talking about...mitz... "

vocal-de-local wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:39 PM:

" toobuff, have you ever considered the "feelings" of those who bought an "over priced house" or paid market value for their property in Napa County, worked incredibly hard to create their dream, and now faces the mentality of comments such as "or a solution to those who are first time home buyers that don't "want" (notice the WANT) to buy an overpriced house in napa, but still "want" to live in napa"?

Have you ever considered the possibilty that many of us started our journey as first time buyers, perhaps somewhere else, and then worked our way up to living in this place? To hear comments about "first time buyers not WANTING to buy overpriced houses" is insulting to those of us who worked really hard to arrive at the place of home ownership in a desirable area.

What sickens me most of all is developers using "entitlement" as a tool to peddle their wares. The "I WANT" generation loves you. "

Paddy wrote on Oct 27, 2009 7:30 AM:

" Where is the report on the consequences of a significant earthquake on the Northern San Andreas, the Rodgers Creek, the Northern Hayward, the Concord Green Valley and the West Napa Fault? Liquifacton at this site will most likely be significant and devestating due to it's proximity to the river and the abundant ground water... Is this site originally landfill? It appears to be on an earthquake map. "

realitybites wrote on Oct 27, 2009 2:52 PM:

" When is the infrastructure going to be put in place to support such an ill conceived project? You have to first improve the roads, increase the water supply and septic systems to support this new "affordable" or "low income" city. Furthermore, I'm sure the penthouse places will sell quickly when their downstairs neighbor is "low income". The roads to and from the South, West and East of Napa are PACKED ever morning and afternoon. Without improvement of the roads, Napa Pipe is a huge mistake we will all pay for. Your not gonna fix the lack of affordable or low income housing in Napa County, which has been missing for 30 years, with some ill conceived project. The state has been threatening to sue over the affordable / low income housing issue for decades - ain't nothing new there. "

napaNTV. wrote on Nov 1, 2009 9:50 AM:

" Lets think about this. The sewer plant is just south if this. Do we really want Napa to be a breakfast community only. Napa pipe should be left alone how many good paying jobs did we lose when it closed. There are ship dry docks out there you remove them and there not comming back with all the restrictions today. There have been many local projects that have been constructed out at napa pipe where are these projects to be done next Japan China, Slowly shutting America down. On my last note I feel good seeing napa pipe when I come home to Napa. It supplys skilled jobs not vinyard workers and its America at work taking care of its self. "

Paddy wrote on Nov 4, 2009 9:34 AM:

" I say use Napa Pipe to dismantle the Mothball Fleet in the bay. Now we're talking long term jobs for years to come with no additional retooling.

Why not use the water at NP to provide a source to Coombsville?

Both of these uses would come at minimal cost, and provide long-term benefits without any changes to infrastructure. "

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