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Teacher salaries

Wednesday, October 21, 2009

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By Chris Burns

A Teacher's Blog

November 17th, 2009

School reform is needed

October 21st, 2009

Teacher salaries

September 14th, 2009

The Bell Curve

No one ever gets rich teaching. I doesn’t matter how good you are or where you work, the rewards of teaching are not financial. That said, I can’t complain that much about my salary. The party line is that teachers are poorly paid, but the truth is more nuanced. It all depends on your perspective.

First of all, teachers are seasonal employees. We work the school year, not the business year. The average American works 50 weeks with around 10 days paid holidays, around 240 days annually. The average teacher works 180 days. So I work about 75 percent of the time the average person does. We are effectively laid off every summer. Having summers off is a perk to some, but to others the loss of income needs to be made up with summer jobs.

Also, a teacher’s official work day is around 7 hours. Yearly, that would amount to around 1,300 hours of work compared to around 2,000 for a more typical job. Taking all this into account, a teacher works two-thirds of a typical work year for the average person. If you consider hourly wages, teacher salaries take on a different light. In my district, a beginning teacher earns $37,000 a year or $29 an hour; the top teachers make $71,000 a year or $55 an hour. It is comparable to a registered nurse’s salary, which has roughly the same educational requirements.

If I look at my hourly rate, my salary is actually impressive, but as I said, the truth is nuanced. For instance, while I officially work 7 hours a day, I also put in an additional 2 hours “off the clock” daily. I also work an average of 6 hours on the weekend. Nurses, police or firefighters don’t have take home work, they have overtime. Lawyers have billable hours. For teachers, it is just a part of the job. That’s OK with me though, I knew what I was getting into when I started out my career.

Another thing the public doesn’t understand about teacher salaries is how teachers get raises. Teacher advancement is based on years of service and education. The anti-union folks will point this out as a way unions protect poor teachers, but in reality it has nothing to do with unions at all. Teachers are government employees and are paid pretty much as other government employees are. I suppose there are good reasons for this. My guess is that if salaries are transparent it helps keep everyone honest.

Some reform measures suggest that salaries should be tied to student performance. If I have any complaints about my salary, it’s this: why does anyone think that I do this for the money. I find that insulting. Let me put it this way. Cops don’t get bonuses for stopping a crime. Firefighters don’t get a raise for pulling someone out of a burning car. A nurse doesn’t get promoted for saving a life. They do those things because they chose a career of service and it’s their job.

We teachers aren’t any different.

101 comment(s)

alucawanza wrote on Oct 21, 2009 5:09 PM:

" Great post, Chris. Don't forget the week before and after the school year setting up and cleaning up! I personally appreciate the clarity and forthrightness of this post. Thank you. "

kevin wrote on Oct 21, 2009 7:38 PM:

" Considering the new testing scores came out and California ranks just ahead of Mississippi for the BOTTOM of the list, I can see why teachers DON'T want to be paid for "performance"... "

freeport56 wrote on Oct 21, 2009 8:02 PM:

" a tyeacher-

i know we rag on one another, but i do have a great deal of respect for your profession and what you have to deal with.

Dt9nt "

Cadence wrote on Oct 22, 2009 7:15 AM:

" Don't some choose teaching precisely because it's seasonal employment?
As to firefighters, cops and nurses' outcomes, no they don't get raises for doing their jobs. However - if criminal apprehension rates were to drop and drop some more, if the numbers killed in fires jumped, if nurses worked in a hospital or clinic whose patients suffered a markedly higher rate of mortality than the other 49 states, I don't doubt for one second that investigations would be launched and procedures would change.
And p.s. - most licensed professionals I know have to complete many hours of continuing education as a condition of license renewal, and all are expected to keep abreast of current professional literature. If they are self-employed, its on their own time and on their own dime. Not much different than taking work home. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Oct 22, 2009 12:14 PM:

" Chris,
I wonder if you factored into income the purchase of books and supplies by teachers out of their own pockets. I don't know how much this happens at the K-12 level, but I know teachers in community colleges often buy books and other supplies which aren't reimbursed.

Cadence, I think it's a good point that if performance keeps going down overall investigations should be launched. In the case of teaching, my guess is there are many variables that contribute to deteriorating student performance, and my guess is (just a guess at this point) the teachers would be the least of the problems. But in any case, to single out teachers for salary reduction in response to student grades or test scores, even if it were possible, would end up being subjective and/or arbitrary.

Everyone I've known who's gone into teaching has done it for some of the reasons Chris has stated -- it's a way to give back, to ensure we have a well-educated future, and it can be very rewarding to impart knowledge and skills to others, as well as to encourage critical thinking, dialogue, problem-solving, creativity and social cooperation.

I think many teachers, as others who have chosen service professions, are motivated by intrinsic reward rather than extrinsic reward. And they usually adjust their lifestyles accordingly. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 22, 2009 12:52 PM:

" Cadence and Kevin: I don't think your points are unreasonable. You should expect good results from schools. I question your assumptions, however, as to the cause.

In the examples Cadence gave, the investigation would reveal either a deficiency in training or management, or both. No one would question the work ethic of the personnel. Unfortunately, that is not true of the criticism lobbed at teachers, who are frequently characterized as burnt out, indifferent, lazy, etc.

Additionally, money would be found to address those problems. You also wouldn't hear much about the unions (who are every bit as militant and protective as teacher unions). But, when education is discussed, there is never enough money and constant complaints about the union.

I think the problems in education are exactly the same as in law enforcement, fire fighting and nursing: effective training and effective management. However, education has become a huge political football where both sides try out their philosophies to prove they are correct.

It's bad for our kids and bad for our country. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 22, 2009 12:59 PM:

" Cadence. I originally became a teacher because I would summers off(ironically, out of 24 summers, I've taken maybe 4 off - and usually I've had to do some sort professional development). Some become police officers because they like guns. It's not why chose your profession, it's why you stay in it.

All teachers have to have 150 hours of professional development to renew their credential. I do an average of 80 hours a year. "

Cadence wrote on Oct 22, 2009 1:00 PM:

" I do applaud Chris Burns for being the second teacher I've ever heard in my life who has baldly stated that teachers do NOT work the normal, 12 month business year that most of us do. Generally I hear annual salary comparisons with no mention at all of the working hours difference. "

kevin wrote on Oct 22, 2009 1:33 PM:

" ateacher, if you think other public employees and their unions haven't faced the same criticism as teachers, then you definitely haven't been paying attention to this blog.

Where's NB when I need him?

The funny thing about firemen is that they successfully "won" their battle. Their "performance" has skyrocketed over the years as the number of house fires in the country has declined dramatically (due to the new building codes).

They are almost victums of their own success as districts cut back the number of firemen needed.

Thankfully (from their point of view) they started becoming EMTs responding to medicial emergencies or there would be a need for even fewer firemen.

If only I thought that someday in the future we would have such a discussion regarding education... "

post-it wrote on Oct 22, 2009 2:31 PM:

" Kevin, the comparison to firefighters may be true if we were able to improve our children in the ways we improved our buildings. Maybe the parents complaining about teachers ought to look at what raw material they are giving them. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 22, 2009 2:41 PM:

" What conversation would you have, Kevin? "

glenroy wrote on Oct 22, 2009 2:48 PM:

" Kevin...foomcl.....fell out of my chair laughing....

Chris does have a point...most teachers, at least the good ones, work more than 7 hours per day....then there are those who go through the motion for 7 hours just to spread their misery... "

BrownsValley wrote on Oct 22, 2009 6:09 PM:

" Most teachers do the best job they can under increasingly difficult circumstances. The design defects and structural problems with the California education system are everywhere. The State of California goes out if its way to make a teacher’s work life as difficult as possible. It is against education policy for a teacher to tell a parent about an effective education program that is proven to help their student, even if the program comes with a money back guarantee, if the program is offered by a for profit company. It's the equivalent of a doctor not being allowed to tell you about a cure for your child's cancer because the company that makes the cure might get paid for it. In other states like Georgia, a school district can take the NCLB tutoring funds and pay the classroom teachers their hourly rate to tutor the students who need extra help after school and on Saturdays, (because they actually know what the student needs to focus on to improve) but the State of California won't allow that. Teachers are expected to be effective in 180 six hour days of teaching and then they are required to devote time to "Dare", have constant interruption of class time from loudspeakers and visitors. The California high school exit exam measures a student’s ability to answer questions based on California’s sophomore level content standards. To put that in perspective the requirement includes Algebra. Algebra is taught in sixth grade to students in most of the world’s education systems. The next time you see a teacher at Starbucks buy them a cup of coffee and say thank you. Given “California’s dysfunctional Educations System” (that’s a quote from Education Secretary Arne Duncan) it's a wonder our students learn as much as they do in the "Golden State". "

kevin wrote on Oct 22, 2009 6:37 PM:

" Excactly right post it!

Change the "raw materials".

One of the most common excuses teachers use for their dismal performance are all the ESL learners.

That's a problem that can be eliminated... "

a teacher wrote on Oct 22, 2009 7:47 PM:

" Brownsvalley - thanks for the sentiment. I don't think any country teaches formal Algebra before 8th grade. Many countries, including ours, teach many Algebra concepts in 6th grade, but it's not the same thing.

But, I agree with you about being hamstrung by the educational/industrial complex. One of the problems I have with performance pay is that I will be held accountable for results, but not allowed to use my own means. It's like tying my left hand to my right foot and telling me to run faster.

Kevin - I have heard very few teachers blame ESL students for failures. If they do, they are full of it, ESL students are maybe 10% of the school population statewide.

So, what conversation would you have? "

dellasumbrella wrote on Oct 23, 2009 11:47 AM:

" From glenroy: "...then there are those who go through the motion for 7 hours just to spread their misery..."

Who do you know who does that?

I know quite a few teachers; they have all been enthusiastic throughout their careers (even when facing difficult or unmotivated students and taking on extra responsibilties outside teaching and pursuing continuing education and buying materials for their classes and dealing with parental expectations, reduction of benefits, insufficient funding for schools, and a growing societal distrust of academics). Most are actively involved in the community, stay abreast of local, national, and international affairs, are practicing their trade as well as teaching it, and thoroughly appreciate their opportunity to contribute to the potential of those they teach. They tend to be innovative, energetic and astute, to the extent that I sometimes feel like a sloth by comparison.

And even when I taught as an adjunct instructor, although I never got paid for the hours outside the class time during which I prepared for class and created tests and assignments, graded tests and papers, responded to students' questions, and did extra research in order to prepare fresh lectures and class plans, I was excited about the opportunity I had to expand my own knowledge while inspiring students and helping them expand theirs.

I don't know what kind of people you know, but they certainly don't fit the mold of teachers I've experienced throughout my longish life as a student, friend, and colleague. "

anticommie wrote on Oct 24, 2009 10:23 AM:

" Teacher:

Great post. I have had some wonderful teachers in my student career that have changed me for the better. I appreciate your outlook and honesty on your profession, and have gained a lot of respect for you as a person.

As far as test scores of students, I wouldn't blame the teachers first. Of cours there may be some teachers out there that should look for a different line of work, but that will be found in any profession. I blame that stuff on management and the government beaucracy that the educational system has become. My sixth grade teacher retired because of curriculum she was FORCED to teach, and her own style of teaching was not accepted by her governmental employer. Sad really, because she will always be my favorite teacher I ever had, and probably one of the best. Am I somewhat close to this Chris? "

a teacher wrote on Oct 24, 2009 6:39 PM:

" anticommie: Thank you.

The truth about curriculum and teaching is not simple. First and foremost, teachers are employees of school districts. I am not a private contractor. If my school district uses a particular curriculum, I have to use it, like it or not. A well run district should include it's teachers in developing curriculum and choosing materials. It should also give some leeway to innovate. But, when decisions are made, I really don't have much of a choice but to go along or resign.

When you imply that the "government" is forcing me to teach things, that is not really correct. In most states schools are locally administered. The state government's role is to set standards, write and enforce laws for governing schools - ie - how many days can a student be suspended, how many school days and (this may surprise you) tenure rules (it's not the unions).

States also control the purse strings - which DOES give the state an enormous influence. One of the criticisms of Prop 13 is that it unintentionally upset the financing of schools. It shifted the control of funds from local school districts to the state. He who controls the purse strings has a lot of say. However, within the parameters set by the state, school districts are autonomous. "

cab e-girl wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:51 AM:

" Teach- Thank you for an honest and insightful letter from a teacher, about salaries. It's factual and concise, and I like that.

I would really like to see you write something about what needs to be done with the failing school system in California. The average student in California is being turned out uneducated and as a result most businesses don't want to hire them. The economic downturn has made their ability to support themselves even more dismal. While you might consider it an insult to pay more to teachers who get better results, some of us in the business community believe that the best teachers spend more than the average 7 hour work week, and they have much better results if they do. Why not reward the best teachers with a "salary incentive"? It's no different than paying them for the extra hours they have put in. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 26, 2009 6:19 PM:

" cab e-girl: To answer your question, let me quote Sir Issac Newton "If I have seen further than others, it's because I stood on the shoulders of giants."

Success in my profession is reliant on the efforts of those who came before me. I will not be successful unless last year's teacher did their job well. It's a team effort.

Additionally, I've yet to see an objective measure of teacher success. Testing may be part of that measure, but there are problems. Not all subjects are tested annually, some aren't tested at all (PE). Many things are out of our hands, parental influence, language, culture, poor planning, finances, etc. Education is a poor fit into a business model. "

antipc wrote on Oct 26, 2009 7:57 PM:

" We're aware of the variables teach. What we want is for all schools to achieve what Mt. George has achieved.
The students deserve no less & the teachers are already compensated to reach those goals. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:36 PM:

" So, anti, are you going to maintain that it was only teacher effort that produced the results at Mt, George? When I taught nothing but GATE classes I had wonderful test scores. "

antipc wrote on Oct 27, 2009 7:11 AM:

" Certainly not teach. But why can't we use the best school in the district as a target for achievement. The old saying, "where there is a will there is a way" comes to mind. Remove the protectionism (ie unions) & top heavy administrations & progress can be made.

Identifying & tackling one problem at a time is the way to bring reform. Playing the blame game only exacerbates the problem "

Bill wrote on Oct 27, 2009 12:32 PM:

" The most basic experience the majority of us share as Americans is the public school system. We have all experienced both good and bad teachers in the 12 some odd years we spend in a system that has made no essential changes in nearly 60 years. Coming across the very good teachers is rare but not so the poor ones.

Teacher’s salaries are perhaps the last thing that we should concern our selves with when it comes to the school system. The education required to “sign on” as a public or private school teacher (I do not believe that private school teachers a paid more, rather less) should have made them well aware of what they were getting into as far as monetary reward. The fact that they may be worth more is questionable only in sense of what value we place on their performance and how that is desirable to the society they serve. Those forces that establish price and those who have felt themselves undervalued have found other paths to follow in pursuit of their happiness and determining their economic value.

The salient point is that you are not fully utilized for much of the year nor are the facilities necessary to perform your functions. A good third of educational property and intellectual ability is wasted annually. Fully one third of a student’s time is squandered in the current system.

This is not a conservative or liberal objection but an economic and social fact. No matter what tweaks of testing or accountability are used as long as you ignore full usage, by not changing to a year around system, you are doomed to poor performance, poor compensation and an increasingly ignorant population. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 27, 2009 12:47 PM:

" AntiPC - the only person playing the "blame game" is you.

Of course we all want the best results. However, not all schools look like Mt. George. California has one of the lowest ratios of administrators to students in the country and NVUSD has one of the lowest in the state. Unions are not the main obstacle to reform. Blaming administrators and the unions may sound good on Fox News, but it's the result of an uninformed opinion. "

antipc wrote on Oct 27, 2009 1:29 PM:

" Uninformed opinion? Unions & administrators are very much a PART of the problem, no blame game just a fact. The teachers union has far more allegiance to it's members than it does to it's members charges, because that is where the money is. Or is political backing of certain bills, politicians, & propositions with a liberal slant just a figure of my imagination.

Archaic funding policies, construction spending, & an unwillingness address the immigration problem are just a few more examples of failures.

It is my opinion, using your data that $55 per hour is too much money for a teaching position unless they get results like Mt George. Add in the benefits packages & it's way too much to pay for the results we are getting. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 27, 2009 2:51 PM:

" AntiPC-you are entitled to your opinion. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:27 PM:

" Bill - I agree with most of what you said about salaries. We know what we're getting into, I'm not surprised that I'm not a wealthy man. As I noted in my blog, I don't feel under paid.

The reason I brought up salaries is that most reform ideas require that we teachers spend more time at school. If the public expects more time, we expect to be compensated for it.

I have to say that I am not convinced that more time is necessarily going to produce better results. I read an interesting, and surprising statistic the other day. It turns out that American teachers spend FAR more time in front of the classroom than their international counter parts, including those who regularly surpass us in those international tests we worry about. American teachers spend an average of 1080 hours in class whilst the international average is closer to 800 hours. Who knew?

I have to say I disagree with you about good teachers being rarer than poor teachers. My experience in class, on either side of the desk, has been the opposite. That is also true of my children. "

pharper wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:43 PM:

" I think the notion of "bad teachers" is arbitrary. A lot of kids will come home and say how bad their teacher is, or how much they hate the class. Disliking a teacher doesn't make them a bad one. I had a couple of teachers throughout elementary school, middle school, and high school that I HATED, but looking back on them, I think that's only because more was expected of us as students and as people in those classes, and I think I may have actually learned a lot. When kids decided they don't like teachers, they're less inclined to work - so whether a teacher is a good one or a bad one, if kids decided they don't like what's being asked of them, it's not always the teacher's fault they start getting bad grades.

A teacher is right; there are far more good teachers than there are bad teachers. Teachers obviously aren't in it for the money, so it follows that they are there because they truly want to teach. It's not a profession that leaves much room for "bad teachers." "

antipc wrote on Oct 27, 2009 7:58 PM:

" Thanks for allowing me to have an opinion teach.

I think the point we may be missing here is that the idea collective equality has dulled the reality of what is truly possible.

Union protectionism has ingrained that into our teachers & it's unfortunately trickled down into the curriculum. "

Bill wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:12 PM:

" A teacher, it is not about you. It is only my twelve year plus experience with the public school system, which sustains the opinion from personal experience that truly good teachers are rare. You, of course, have a wider experience that would allow you a greater opportunity to encounter more exceptional teachers. The rest of us may count our selves fortunate if we encounter even one or two. Figure how many teachers an American student experiences in their school career and the possibility of encountering those truly exceptional individuals that have the ability to touch us and make a difference in out lives.

What does you example of other teachers spending less time in front of their students yet achieve better results suggest? Could there be a quality or emphasis in their method that produces this result and not necessarily the physical time spent? Is there a general demand or expectation that produces different results? Using your intellectual abilities does not require you be in class the full year and of course if you work full time you should be compensated.

The facilities and the availability of teachers are present year around and should be utilized. Hiding from this is a tremendous disservice to the education of all Americans. There is absolutely no reason to waste a full third of educational resources settling for the part time system we expect to educate modern citizens. Have you noticed the front page of either Time or Newsweek trumpeting finishing college in three years? I did not read the article but the head line shows the drift.

Good teachers? Or individuals that have the ability to motivate and inspire as well as instruct. The merely good as opposed to the simply bad is an exercise in mediocrity. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 28, 2009 6:51 AM:

" Bill - Nor is it about you. Respectfully, your experience can be applied to you and you should speak for yourself and not others. I also find your expectations impossible to meet. You would appear to recognize only the exceptional, the mediocre and the wretched as a continuum for teacher performance. Exceptional is by definition rare. I wish I had more exceptional students, but that is not reality. I think competent as opposed to not competent is a more reasonable measure for teacher quality. The vast majority of teachers meet that measure.

Teachers are NOT available all year round. They are available for the days that they are paid. Currently, that is 183 days. The same is true of facilities, which must be maintained when in use. This would all cost money that currently is not available.

I agree that resources could be used to encourage students to complete their education earlier. Sadly, those resources are being used to address the needs of students who are mostly unwilling to apply themselves. It's a big reason I won't teach summer school at the high school level.

As for the research I pointed out about hours spent in front of the class? Frankly, I don't know what to make of it. Research suggests that more time teaching equals better results. My initial reaction runs along the lines of working smarter, not harder. However, I need to think about it more. "

Bill wrote on Oct 28, 2009 8:41 AM:

" I only speak for myself indicating that most Americans have the same experience is not a claim of spokesman ship but an observation. 183 days of part time work produces a part time result. While I understand more time requires more money and compensation is not commensurate with the demand, more time you more compensation. Alternatively the school year can be divided into quarters or thirds such that you can retain your same paid status and free time. Teachers can be available year around by a simple scheduling device, not all need to be involved for the same frozen time period
.
I am aware there are significantly more good teachers than bad ones but find it unfortunate there are more bad ones than excellent ones. Again that is my observation especially after sheparding two youths through it. Add another 24 years experience.

Fallow ground may have a use in agriculture and education for the rejuvenation of intellectual need and the playtime that the fertile soil of youth finds necessary but not so the physical structures deemed necessary to carry out educations objectives. Excellent students rarely require excellent teachers, is there not a bit of elitism here on both our parts? Where those who truly need that excellence are relegated to the further mediocrity of summer school.

As far as the use of facilities it is completely in efficient to allow them to lie unused for more than a third of their useful life. This is inefficient and not cost effective. Yes there is down time for repair and maintenance but not for fully one third of those facilities availability. To ignore this abandons a great opportunity to improve the current system. It is indefensible except for the cultural exceptionalism we allow to govern our thinking. "

wine nurse wrote on Oct 28, 2009 9:22 AM:

" am a registered nurse with an advanced degree and do spend quite a bit of money traveling to conferences pertaining to my specialty for mandatory CEU units. I also buy supplies with my own money just to ensure that I have them.

All three of my children went to school in Napa and personally I feel they stopped learning in or around 8th grade.

Teachers are amazing individuals who must enjoy the torture of having to deal with not only students who are not motivated but the parents who jump down their throat if they were to give one of their little angels a bad grade.....

If I had to do it all over again I would pay to have my child put in a private school from day one.

Both of my daughters graduated with almost a 4.0 and UC requirements completed. However when they began College neither couldn't pass the standard math exam and had to take a remedial class. I don't blame this on the teachers I blame it on the system. "

Bill wrote on Oct 28, 2009 9:34 AM:

" As an educator I must bow to your expertise on the educational system but that does not mean that those of us not directly involved do not have an expertise of our own that is important to education. My pet peeve is not with teachers or salaries but with the refusal to implement the full year and dedicate it to education. It may not be your refusal but the general acceptance of things as they are instead of things as they could be. "

Bill wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:38 AM:

" Allow me to point out that insinuating that I am speaking for others when I am not is not respectful. You may disagree with my observations but it is your claim that I am speaking for others not mine. You on the other hand are speaking for others of your profession by default even if you protest that your writings only represent your opinion. You represent, as a teacher, certain authority and as such believability coupled with influence.

Do my “impossible expectations” mean that I should accept the majority of students are relegated to an education governed by a part time attitude and, to reverse the Al Davis motto, “No commitment to excellence?” Are only exceptional students of Value and others merely chaff?

I have encountered another pet peeve; the system strokes the pates of the best and the brightest and performs the function of a policeman for the troubled masses. I could make the observation that your words may indicate that you also buy into this assumption. How is the fact that there are few exceptional students relevant to the fact that there are few excellent teachers? Why should the absence of excellent students preclude the efforts of excellent teachers? If you happen to be a truly excellent teacher why deny your skills to those most in need?

Why should I accept the merely good for myself, my children and the society in which I live and not seek that which is rare or excellent as a standard for myself, my children and society? Should I abandon excellence to the realm of impossibility? It appears that has already been done. This attitude condemns us all to mediocrity; it invites us not to dream but to accept without question any yoke placed upon us. "

alucawanza wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:51 AM:

" wine nurse
Blame it on your kids. If they had SAT scores high enough to get into the UC system, math being a component, why couldn't they pass the standard math exam? On the other hand, it could be they weren't scientifically-minded, but were rather gifted in the Language Arts and Social Sciences. There are many reasons for their Mathematics experience other than the "system." I'm not even sure what "system" you're blaming it on.
Did they take AP Math classes?
Did they get As in higher level Math classes?
Math is one of the most objective subjects to grade. You can't get an A without showing your understanding of the material. Your child's experience baffles me. You can't get a 4.0 without an A in the math classes. You can't get an A in math classes without mastering the concepts. What happened? "

alucawanza wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:09 AM:

" Bill
It's 183 days of full time work. Arrival at 7:30, 10 minutes to use the bathroom in the morning (recess), 30 minutes for lunch, kids dismissed at 2:40, prep time for the next day to 3:15 by contract..everyone stays until at least 4:00. Two hours at home grading papers.
*Two days added to the contract for in-service 8:00 to 5:00.
*Weekend preparation for the next week. Run off papers, put up new bulletin boards etc.
*Teachers who go to Outdoor Ed: One week away from home working each day 6:00 to 11:30 p.m. Hours of fund-raising and paperwork that needs to be sent to the camp.
*Faculty meetings after school monthly, add one hour to the day.
*Grade level meetings weekly after school, add one hour to the day.
*Parent conferences when needed after school.
*Special Ed Student Study Teams, after school, add one hour to the day. The number of times this happens depends on the number of special ed kids in your class.
*Evaluation meetings with the principal after school, one hour, six times a school year, every other year.
*School Carnival: One Sunday a year or one afternoon and evening a year
*Fund raising: Different each year. Someone has to keep track of the candy! No field trips without fund-raising. There's always a parent late to pick up their kid on these days too..
*Parking Lot duty: takes time of prep period so prep is done after.
It goes on and on. These are just some of the ways that an elementary school teacher's time is spent. Don't ever tell me my job was part-time. Every paper your kid brings home represents 32 others that were corrected too. Do the Math.. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:14 AM:

" Bill - Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate your comments. I just don't agree with them all. My pet peeve is how teachers are often portrayed: lazy, pampered, power hungry, incompetent, etc and held up to an impossible standard of performance.

Up until I read that American teachers spend more time in class than their counterparts in other countries, I would have agreed with you about spending more time at school. However, the more I read about it, the less convinced I am that would help.

I do agree that we could use these resources more efficiently. But, that would mean that we have to spend more money on education, which is something Americans won't do (unless it's someone else's money). "

a teacher wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:56 AM:

" Bill: you said: " The most basic experience the majority of us share as Americans is the public school system. We have all experienced both good and bad teachers in the 12 some odd years we spend in a system that has made no essential changes in nearly 60 years. Coming across the very good teachers is rare but not so the poor ones."

Had you said "I have found that coming across...", you'd have a point. But, perhaps I'm being a little thin skinned.

You and I have been down this route before. You believe that by holding up high standards, people will meet them. My concern is the people who can't meet those standards, and I think it's larger number than you are willing to admit to. I don't buy the power of positive thinking.

I don't see my job as setting high expectations, I see it as setting clear expectations. My job is to teach Algebra. I know how a 13 year old mind works, so I'm good at explaining the math on that level. That's all there really is to it.

The truth is (in my opinion) that most students in our schools don't really want to be there. They'd rather be else where. Having high expectations doesn't work well on a population that is a captive audience. I don't see this as a problem with schools in particular, but with American culture in general. Americans don't trust intelligence and don't value education. Until that changes, results won't. "

Bill wrote on Oct 28, 2009 12:41 PM:

" If it is not education’s role to challenge us but only to train us then what value should we apply to those merely good practitioners? Is it only a strictly utilitarian calculus to be applied to “unwilling students?” Could it be the reaction of these unwilling students to the quality of that training which contributes to the debate of teacher’s salaries?

I find here a certain ambiguity where students must be exceptional to merit the efforts of even the good if not the excellent. Of course we must all now be exceptional parents to produce exceptional students who will probably become excellent people in spite not because of the educational system. The reality is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease those exceptional students receive the fawning attention many feel they rightfully deserve and the problem student receives the strict attentions of the policing assignment while the rest are relegated to the limbo of over stuffed if good “minders.”

I know I am being antagonistic here but your last comment certainly appears petulant and more suitable to a Rodney Dangerfield dialogue. The “I don’t get no respect” is a two way street. You certainly do put in more time, as do most teachers and administrators than you are compensated for which may be working harder if not smarter through no fault of your own. Still this was an eyes open arrangement when teachers made their choice. I certainly do not begrudge what ever you gain for yourself or your union helps you gain.

People with an education, especially those professionals who wear them on their sleeves as doctors, lawyers, teachers and others will always be targets of derision and disrespect it’s part of the territory. This is really talking at cross-purposes and not fruitful. "

NapaMom wrote on Oct 28, 2009 12:49 PM:

" I guess if you do not like the job YOU decided you wanted to do then go back to school and do something else. I know of many people who go above and beyond to do well at the job they picked. A good teacher is hard to find. A couple of my high school students teachers are always crabby and for what? If you dont like your job find another one that will make you happy. "

5th generation napan wrote on Oct 28, 2009 1:05 PM:

" All good points.

I however believe the teachers are mandated to teach a curiculum by the feds and state thats rediculous.

I also believe 80% of todays parents have failed in their job of teaching their children dicipline, respect, love of learning. They set them infront of a video game, play station, lap top game and say, gee my kid is learning the computer!

Kids have become drones, learing how to push buttons and not how to create, how a computer works or how to use their imagination.

Finally sadly enough hollywood had better admit they are responsible for creating a couple of generations of hoods showing them how to solve problems by violence. Even Disney moves has to have some huge tragic event to show little kids who the bad guy is and its ok what ever happens to them at the end of the movie. You dont think this is affecting our kids?

So lay off the teachers and start looking at home and what our messed up legislature is mandating how a teachers time is utilized during the day. A huge percentage of the time is not teaching but maintaining control and teaching the lowest learning student to take a test and make the scores look good!

But thats just the opinion of an old fart. "

Bill wrote on Oct 28, 2009 1:12 PM:

" A Teacher, sorry I did not understand the reference to-(Had you said "I have found that coming across...", you'd have a point. But, perhaps I'm being a little thin skinned.)

Limited word counts force brevity and the manner in which things get posted are many times out of context leading to an imagined insult. Still your reference is perplexing.

Please do not tell me what I believe, that always leads to a tit for tat exchange as in describing the other. Allow me to describe myself or we really enter into cross-purposes and I will try to the same.

Setting high expectations may be tilting a windmills but their absence condones poor performance. That’s one reason why teachers are now saddled with teaching to a test and performance measurement for good or ill. Another subject.

It is my contention that we cannot use the same format and produce modern citizens equipped for a much different world than the world the present system has served. Unless there is a radical format change a “good education” will prove or is proving insufficient. As far as salaries and the current time frame you could not be paid enough to make up the difference necessary in the present system. If your pay were doubled class size cut in half with more teachers picking up the load under the present arrangement it is not demonstrable that the change would be sufficient or significant. "

a teacher wrote on Oct 28, 2009 1:53 PM:

" "If it is not education’s role to challenge us but only to train us then what value should we apply to those merely good practitioners?"

Try getting through modern life without being able to read. That should inform you on the value a good practitioner of education. If we reckon that survival in a modern society is dependent on a firm grasp of language, mathematics, science, history, etc, then we should put a high value on people who can competently train people in those areas.

"Is it only a strictly utilitarian calculus to be applied to “unwilling students?” Could it be the reaction of these unwilling students to the quality of that training which contributes to the debate of teacher’s salaries?"

Yes. The biggest complaint High School students have is that what they learn is not relevant to their lives (in their opinion). They have a point. It is not possible to show how Algebra is relevant to the lives of a 13 year old. It will not make them popular. It will not help them find a girl friend or a boy friend? They can not use it if they were stranded on a desert island. We live in a culture where learning is a means to an end, not an ends in and of itself. That is why, in my opinion, Asian countries have better academic outcomes. They value intelligence and learning as worth while pursuit.

That is what I meant in my last comment that you found petulant. It's not an excuse, it's an observation. "

Bill wrote on Oct 28, 2009 4:24 PM:

" Are you being deliberately obtuse here? In one breath setting high expectations as not reasonable and in the next using the a high degree of competency necessary in modern life does not to support a demand of high expectation. Are we spinning in the wind here or merely overly defensive?

I don’t like cut and paste but here ya go.” My pet peeve is how teachers are often portrayed: lazy, pampered, power hungry, incompetent, etc and held up to an impossible standard of performance.” Petulance.

“Sadly, those resources are being used to address the needs of students who are mostly unwilling to apply themselves. It's a big reason I won't teach summer school at the high school level.” Elitism.

Sorry I know it’s not nice to quote out of order but you started it and it can turn vicious.

Most students are unwilling to apply themselves unless motivated to do so. It’s the nature of the beast as you so aptly demonstrate about teenagers. Will more money change that?

I am not trying to degrade your value or provoke you but challenge you to explain. Especially the point where other places spend less time in front of students and get better results? There may be something reactionary about American society that prevents much of what is desirable but that is as big a blame game as is blaming teachers. It only serves to shift the focus from the system and rail against the American malaise. You are in a position to instigate change not politicians or society. Salary is really a minor part of the problems education faces "

a teacher wrote on Oct 28, 2009 5:04 PM:

" Bill - I don't think I've complained about my salary, in fact I think I've said it is fair. My blog was meant to inform on how teachers are paid. It wasn't a complaint.

Objecting to being denigrated is not petulance.

Choosing not to work during the summer, an option I have, because I find the students unprepared and unwilling to do the necessary work, is not elitism. I find it unpleasant and would rather spend the time with my daughters, it's personally more rewarding.

Summer schools are funded to deal with remediation. I can't think of a single district that allows students to advance through summer school. Those places are needed for students who failed. In my experience, half of the students who came on the first day of class will not finish on the last day. They simply stop coming or run into discipline problems and are expelled. Of the ones who stay, a third will fail because they did not put in the required work to pass.

I think spending the money on students who are willing to put in the effort to pass the class is a better use of the funds. Students who enroll in summer school in order to pass it will probably be in those seats at the end of the course. Students who are being "forced" to take those classes will not.

I have no further comments on the amount of classroom time and it's effects on success. It contradicts other studies that say it should matter. I don't quite know what to think about that. "

anticommie wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:27 AM:

" Well teach, I still appreciate your posting of this blog. It is sad though that teachers aren't always allowed to have the major voice in what and how curriculum is taught. It just goes to show that the "higher-ups" always think they know what is best when it is those in the field that really do. Thanks for the view point! "

Daholla77 wrote on Oct 31, 2009 4:43 AM:

" Why is it when they talk about testing , "no child left behind" and school performance,we always talk about the teacher are bad, the admin are bad but the parents are never apart of the equation. If we want higher test scores we need the parents to be a part of this equation. The student who do good in my classes have good support from parents, grandparents etc. NCLB has put the blame on the teacher and that's it. Parents have given up responsibility and went to pointing fingers on "why is my kids not getting an education" When they need to ask themselves the same question. The Parents are the first Teachers a child will have, so if a parent doesn't do the job right and passes the buck the child's example of a teacher will be twisted. Some of the Kids in my classroom who really screw up in school and act crazy, the parents of these children sometimes have passed down there negativity about schooling. These parents are sometimes very confrontational towards school staff and they feel that it is never their kids fault for anything. On the salary thing, I think most teacher just wish that we would get paid as much as other jobs that require the same amount of education. I can have a Doctorate and I will only get paid 1599 more a year as a High school teacher, wheres other jobs I will be making six figures. That is one reason why districts can't keep science and math teachers. I have a bachelors, two credentials, and multiple hours going to seminars and trainings I would just like to be compensated for all the hard work I have done. I love my job "

Daholla77 wrote on Oct 31, 2009 5:05 AM:

" for the young teacher that complain about there salaries it mostly because they have to pay off their student loans which are not cheap. I know I am about 40,000 in the whole right now. I know non teacher think that we have all this time off and we are boo hooing over nothing. But I know any good teacher is reevaluating during their breaks what has work, what didn't,and how can we make it better. I have to redo my lesson plans every year so I can reach and educate each different group I have every year. Plus I work summer school. So I would say that I probably get a total of 2 maybe 3 weeks of total free time with my family over a years time.
I think that teacher should be in the same Honored light as doctors, Police, lawyers, fireman, basketball player, football players of importance in our society. The reason being is that none of the people I have previously mentioned and many more would not be who they are if it wasn't for a teacher. To be there for them , to teach them, and inspire them. "

steph wrote on Oct 31, 2009 1:44 PM:

" What about some suggestions from Bill as to how children could be assisted by teachers in overcoming poor parenting in order to achieve success?

Bill's biggest concern seems to be that the middle-of-the-pack children or those who are really failing are not getting better instruction, and he seems to blame teachers.

I agree that the system is failing to capture a lot of these kids (sorry, Bill, but that's an acceptable use of the word). I blame neglect--large, impersonal, unsafe campuses that have insufficient resources for sports and vocational programs, for example. And I am sure that it is difficult to attract high quality teachers to some of the schools where the children are hostile to education and their absentee parents only appear to defend the children against any form of discipline whatsoever.

But some ideas instead of complaints from Bill--for whom this seems personal--would be refreshing.

For the record, my three children are thriving in Napa's best public schools and our share of excellent teachers has so far outweighed our share of bad teachers, the number of which so far totals one, and she wasn't really that bad to our children....Of course, they have good parents, if I do say so myself. We've never allowed our children to blame teachers for their troubles. That's rule #1--take personal responsibility for your lot. "

alucawanza wrote on Oct 31, 2009 3:30 PM:

" Daholla77
Some advice from an old retired teacher. If you are going to represent teachers in the public, state your ideas and arguments for all to see, please proofread what you type. Concentrate on noun, verb agreement, run-on sentences. I think your emotions are running ahead of your fingers. Your statements are true ones...they need to be stated correctly for you to be respected as a teacher. You must be the model here for precise grammar. People will concentrate on the presentation rather than the content. "

Napagrrl wrote on Oct 31, 2009 8:24 PM:

" Oh, Lord, Daholla77! I certainly hope you are not teaching my NVUSD kids! Wow! Where to begin? Um, I guess I won't! You know those continuing education classes you're supposed to take? This year, let's focus on grammar, sentence structure and spelling. Not to mention, "in the whole." (meaning "hole"); "there" vs "their." What's the use? I count no fewer than 20 grammatical errors in this comment! (Any errors in mine, of course, can be chalked up to fatigue, irritation, typos...." "

steph wrote on Nov 1, 2009 12:22 AM:

" Is it possible (let's hope!) that daholla is a foreign language teacher whose first language is not English?
If that's the case, I'm cutting some slack. Because my Spanish is terrible. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 1, 2009 7:44 AM:

" Guys it's a comments section of a small town newspaper, not an education journal.

Lighten up. "

Jane Eyrehead wrote on Nov 1, 2009 9:56 AM:

" The United States is the only country in the world that has taken on the job of educating every single person until the age of 18. Think of it as a mission.

It is easier to teach children of educated parents who have high expectations. Those children every day see concrete evidence of the payoffs of education. Some rebel, of course, but most buy into the idea that education has real benefits.

I was reading a book recently by Joe Queenan, a New York writer who grew up in absolute deprivation, yet went to college and is today very successful. He attributes his success to: 1. good teachers; 2. the horrible warning of an uneducated alcoholic father; 3. lots of books. He goes on to state that poor children today don't read as he did.

I think this last item is the reason so many children are struggling in school. When you realize that the percentage of children living in poverty has increased over the last twenty-five years, and factor in the types of entertainment that have supplanted reading, it's no surprise we have many students who aren't successful. Teachers try hard, but they are only in the student's lives for one-third of the day, half of the year.

These children are in trouble because the culture is in trouble. It has been suggested that teachers should be paid according to their student's test scores. If we start rewarding teachers in that way, we will be punishing some dedicated people who are willing to work with the most unpromising students. Those are the teachers to whom Joe Queenan owes his career.

The book is "Closing Time." "

a teacher wrote on Nov 1, 2009 11:21 AM:

" " The United States is the only country in the world that has taken on the job of educating every single person until the age of 18."

Jane, I think there are many countries in the world who would beg to differ with that statement, England, Canada, France, Japan, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Germany...

However, I do agree with the rest of your coment. "

cattywompus wrote on Nov 1, 2009 11:48 AM:

" The day education stops being about politics and starts being about my students I will have a better opportunity to do a much better job.
Stop making my meetings about what some politician who's never been in a classroom dictates and lets start focusing on our actual students' needs.
Make those politicians stop changing their mind about what program we must follow every four years until the next one gets elected.
I don't care how much I make or how many days a year I work. What I care much about seeing many of my students struggle in the classroom.
Make my meetings about them, help me visit successful schools, give me time to collaborate with other teachers and set up programs that have proven effective. Stop forcing my administrators to follow Sacramento and give them the tools to support our local needs, because right now many don't know how to. "

Daholla77 wrote on Nov 1, 2009 12:23 PM:

" Did you guys see what time I was writing? My brain was only half awake. "

Jane Eyrehead wrote on Nov 1, 2009 12:36 PM:

" to a teacher--

Other countries stratify the education a lot more than we do--students are tracked into non-university-bound courses. They leave school younger, too.

But I am glad you agreed with most of the post. I think you would get a kick out of Queenan's book. "

steph wrote on Nov 1, 2009 5:11 PM:

" I agree--our culture is in terrible trouble. "

steph wrote on Nov 1, 2009 5:14 PM:

" And I've always deeply admired those who achieve in the face of seemingly overwhelming odds.
I'd say my dad is one of those men. He had a tragic childhood, but he never dwells on it. He struggled to put himself through college, and became a teacher, first in a middle school, then at a continuation high school where he saw a little bit of himself in most of his students, most of whom also had less-than-ideal childhoods. He was one of their biggest champions.
My dad, a former teacher, is a good man. "

alucawanza wrote on Nov 3, 2009 4:22 PM:

" steph
Your dad is, indeed, a good man. How proud you must be of him. Working at a continuation high school, helping those kids...he's a hero. "

Bill wrote on Nov 3, 2009 6:18 PM:

" Sorry Steph,

It’s not personal I don't know where you pick that up and it's not about blaming teachers. I like teachers.

It is about the myopia perpetuating a system that has made no essential structural changes in 60 years. Teachers are merely an acquiescent part of it. Teachers are certainly not the Liberal tomes many would make them out to be and many would probably agree that year around schooling would be a beneficial move.

It is my understanding that several advanced western educational systems, whose students out perform ours, do operate this way. I would appreciate some enlightenment along this line.

I think an attitude has been demonstrated here that at least one teacher prefers to devote more attention to those that have a better chance of achieving than the run of the mill student. I want schools to run year around and a system that is responsive to the students’ it is charged with educating. I don’t see that happening.

Blaming teachers, parents or culture is a cop out. We have mandated that All children receive an education. Guess what, all the children don’t want to go to school. I don’t think it’s too far out of line to say that the vast majority of children don’t want to go to school and that the vast majority are forced to go to school.

If this surprises anyone it should certainly not surprise teachers. That just might be the students that concern me the most, as Steph would like to point out. It should also be the concern of the majority of Americans. We have mandated that ALL children receive an education not merely the best and the brightest, the most prepared or the most motivated. "

Bill wrote on Nov 3, 2009 7:14 PM:

" Year around schooling may be not only be more efficient use of physical property and employees time, cost efficient and cheaper, as in saving money as well as reducing class size. This is a statement I will make over and over again, admittedly with no expertise and perhaps with the intent of being boring.

If it is your view that it is some how a complaint and not a suggestion, Steph, then make a concrete suggestion of your own.

If viewing the prevalent attitude that only the motivated and prepared deserve the attention of our best teachers is a complaint then so be it. It is an attitude that sustains the “why should I make the effort?” and should be called to account.

It is a major reason why so many are upset with the school system. If these are disagreeable observations make some suggestions to alleviate them or continue being alternately antagonistic and patronizing. "

5th generation napan wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:23 AM:

" It should be mandated to "give" every kid education!

We are lagging behind other countries in education, or is it test scores?

We as a nation have dismantled our education system by mandatiting "extra stuff" without increasing learning time, thus reducing the education time for "core education".

Core education gives every citizen in this country a chance to be a productive part of society and (dirty word) be a part of the middle class!
Which at one time was a very respected slot in the world.

We won WW2 because our everyday soldiers in the field of battle were from a huge diverse background, side by side college people, farmers, and working class factory workers. Together they created, imporovised, and overcame all obstacles before them.

Creative thinking is what suffers and is lacking in our country. (Good example in the financial world, no one now is a capitalist: definition one whom CREATES WEALTH, we now just have people that only know how to redistrubute existing wealth)

We have lost the fact that not every kid wants to, or should go to college. (Even though in my opinnion Jr. college is now the equivalent of the old High School Diploma). But we no longer have factory jobs, we no longer have creativity and are destroying ourselfves.

We need to bring back the full rounded education we use to have!
College prep. (for those who want to continue) Shop classes, Sports, Music and Arts, and a basic understanding of how to live in society today.

Society has benefited from all these fields. When we stopped putting emphasis on all the fields we lost our edge.

DaVinci said, "It is the poor student that doesn't excel past his teacher"! "

cheezcakemaker wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:31 AM:

" $29 an hour to start and only work 75% of the year?

I envy teachers. I only hit $22 per hour last month and only took day off. I have no paid health care, no PTO, no pension and no union protection. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 4, 2009 11:57 AM:

" "I think an attitude has been demonstrated here that at least one teacher prefers to devote more attention to those that have a better chance of achieving than the run of the mill student."

Bill, you keep saying that. I didn't. What I did say is that summer school money would probably be spent better on students who are willing to put in the time and the effort to pass them. Summer school is optional.

If you want to make a point by misquoting and characterizing what I said, be my guest. However, don't expect me to give you much credence.

To answer your question about year round school. It's not a simple answer, most school systems bass their school year on seasonal considerations. In Europe most school systems have the longest break during the summer months and smaller breaks during the winter months. These generally coincide with cultural holidays and the planting season (ex. Kenya's three breaks coincide with planting, harvest and monsoon seasons). The average length of the school year around the world is about 180 or so days.

About "It is about the myopia perpetuating a system that has made no essential structural changes in 60 years."

I've been thinking about that lately and I've been wondering: that system did an excellent job of educating me. Why isn't it working now? In fact, I challenge that statement that education has not changed in 60 years. It seems to me that schools are offering a lot less to students than they did when I was on the other side of the desk. "

Bill wrote on Nov 4, 2009 4:11 PM:

" A teacher,

I will refer you to your post on "wrote on Oct 28, 2009 5:04 PM:" instead of cutting two paragraphs out of order.

If you can't see the sentiment conveyed in that post and especially the two paragraphs that indicate your preferences then you are correct in sticking to math as a subject matter.

Am I to surmise that those show up in your math classes unprepared, unmotivated and forced to be there will receive less than the full amount of your skills? I would hope not and I think I would be very wrong in assuming that.

Still, when you write you maintain a thread throughout many of your arguments that leads me to understand that you have a preference that does not include a majority of students. Rather that majority is relegated to a secondary status. It is a subliminal thread, prevalent with many in your profession and it leads to the charge of elitism. "

steph wrote on Nov 4, 2009 4:18 PM:

" 5th generation napan: I agree wholeheartedly.

cheezecakemaker: You're welcome to $29 an hour; just go get your teaching credential (and a college degree if you haven't got one) and then teach school.

Bill--At first I was going to agree with you--and I agree that our system has become complacent with regard to giving up on throwaway children, frankly. But then I read what teacher wrote, and I agree with him. Education HAS changed. Society HAS changed. And while I believe our system has failed certain children, I also believe that their parents are as much to blame. But that shouldn't be the end of the story. That's why I support the concept of NCLB. Now, schools ARE accountable for teaching ALL children who don't drop out of school.

I would also bring school choice in the form of vouchers, I would bring back a strong extracurricular program of sports and arts, and I would bring back vocational training. I would lengthen the school day so that even college-bound kids could take auto shop classes or sewing or cooking. I would imrove school lunches, as well, and I would mandate that all children had to do some form of work in the school (cooking, cleaning, gardening.) I would mandate personal finance classes in high school, too.

But nobody iin power actually cares about our kids. It's a symptom of a very sick society. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:27 PM:

" Bill - So provocative, so nasty. You can read what you want into what I write. I'll stand by what I've done. In 23 years I worked rural Georgia, inner city New York, rural Kenya, schools for troubled kids and Vallejo. All of those are schools characterized by students in need. Sometimes that's where the job was, sometimes by choice. I've done my time in the trenches and speak from hard earned experience. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 4, 2009 8:48 PM:

" Steph - I agree with much of what you're saying. I tell my bosses all the time that we are failing to reach a sizable segment of our kids who never seem to progress much. Every year I've had a new program thrust upon me designed to reach these guys. It usually fails. I don't think we're really addressing what these guys need. I'm not sure we can.

I don't agree with you about vouchers. I feel it's just an excuse not to fix public education. It's also a race to the bottom. "

steph wrote on Nov 5, 2009 12:07 PM:

" I don't believe accessable (it's not "free") education needs to be provided by government employees in a government bureaucracy.

I have no problem as a taxpayer funding an effective educational program that gives each American citizen and legal resident a good start and keeps our country competitive and trains our future adults to run the country--in fact, it's my responsibility and it's my honor.

But our system has for decades proven to be ineffective for WAY too many people, with no accountability and no consequences for those in charge of administering to our most vulnerable.

So it's way past time for change. And if private schools can produce better results, I say we should encourage that. Education is the only outcome that matters--not maintaining a failing system with a tweak here and there. We don't need any more excuses not to fix public education. Public education has proven itself to not be fixable, and SHAME on us for allowing children to fail.

Again, I say that private schools could employ teachers the same as public schools, but perhaps with a higher level of professionalism. I don't know why teachers fight so hard to maintain the status quo vs. vouchers. "

steph wrote on Nov 5, 2009 12:10 PM:

" "I don't think we're really addressing what these guys need. "

Sadly, I believe this is a symptom of a welfare state, where the state's money takes the place of a stable, two-parent family all too often. Teachers cannot take the place of fathers. We can do better than we're doing, but excessive dependence on welfare is a cancer. "

Bill wrote on Nov 5, 2009 12:21 PM:

" A teacher,
You keep polishing up past service like a gold star of achievement as proof of dedication. Yet you left many of those communities and appear not to have considered the wider community. If that is provocative it is meant to be. If you find it nasty then that is your personal problem.

Pointing at service to the needy as a justification is a classic example of a misreading of function, a great paragraph in a resume. I have no doubt you are a dedicated and concerned individual but when you fail to recognize the strains of patronization recurrent in your posts you become the stereotype you would rail against, worse you expose yourself to the charge of punching your ticket for the goal of self advancement. If the pieces you write and the comments placed after them are all about you then you are engaged in a useless endeavor. What are those programs that fail year after year? Why do you feel uncertain about reaching the people the system is meant to serve?

Is certainty a necessary component in the current philosophical policy? If you find this provocative or challenging it is meant to be. I do not intend to be fawning or blindly accept past service in the trenches as a necessary qualification of either goodness or authority. My intent is not to be nice but to be demanding of those who represent themselves as authorities.

Compassionate service for the needy is admirable, but when does it become trite and meaningless? How does it support expertise? If I cook in a soup kitchen does that experience qualify me to speak as an advocate for the hungry with any expert knowledge other than personal insight, though I am expert cook? "

a teacher wrote on Nov 5, 2009 1:20 PM:

" Steph - for one thing, I don't think that the American Education system is a failure. We suffer by comparison to some other countries, but in reality we're about average. We could do much better, but we haven't failed.

"Again, I say that private schools could employ teachers the same as public schools, but perhaps with a higher level of professionalism. I don't know why teachers fight so hard to maintain the status quo vs. vouchers. "

Because, that's not true. Public schools have a much higher standard for teachers, they have to by law. Private schools don't have to follow many of those standards. For instance, in order to follow NCLB regulations I have to be "Highly Qualified" meaning I have a BA or it's equivalent for the subject I teach. A private school doesn't have to have "highly qualified" teachers, they don't have to worry about NCLB. If they did, private school tuition would be much higher. "

alucawanza wrote on Nov 5, 2009 1:54 PM:

" Paragraph #1
We don't know why Chris left communities. Life's demands on us quite often require a move. He worked with kids whereever he went.

Paragraph #2
The patronization you are reading in his posts are your interpretation. I see them as truths and insight into how Chris views his calling. I also bellieve that the point of these essays is togive the public the view of a school teacher. It is about him, his experiences, and relationship to his ocupation. So, of course it's about his point of view.

Paragraph 3
No one is asking you to fawn over Chris. Just read the post and learn about a teacher's life...if you want to. He is an expert, just as a dentist who has been working on teeth for years and has kept up with current techniques. Why should your intent be to be demanding? Chris is an authority about education. He has a wealth of experience. Nice is such a mundane word. Actually your intent is not to be accepting of what Chris is posting. You are being a contrarian. Chris has had plenty of that to deal with teaching in Middle School.

Paragraph 4
Compassionate service is never trite and meaningless. Are you equating compassionate service with sefl-aggrandizement? Very cynical opinion. Part of teaching demands compassion. That's the support it gives to expertise. Imagine being taught by an uncompassionate teacher. So the student doesn't understand the concept. Too bad, should have been listening.
The answer to your last question is yes...depending on what you believe personal insight is. Advocacy would relate to your compassion. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 5, 2009 2:20 PM:

" "You keep polishing up past service like a gold star of achievement as proof of dedication. Yet you left many of those communities and appear not to have considered the wider community."

So we're going for the cheap shots, eh? I could respond in kind, but why bother. It turns out that like many other teachers, I have a family and a life outside of school. Stuff happens and you don't need the details.

You know, the bottom line here is that this is a blog, a guy with an opinion and a space to write it. I don't portray myself as an authority, just someone with a lot experience and a point of view. I state my opinions as opinions and facts as facts. Call me on my facts, call me on my opinions. But, if you are going to get nasty and personal, I'm not interested. "

steph wrote on Nov 5, 2009 4:16 PM:

" I don't believe the American public school system is a total failure for all--but for many, it is a total failure. My own children, for example, are doing really well in the best public schools in Napa.

But what about the other children? The ones who drop out of school or who leave high school with no job skills or no college prospects? What about them? For them, public schools are a failure, and there are too many of them. For them, "on average" doesn't mean anything. The system didn't meet their needs.

"Qualifications" are a poor substitute for outcomes. A school full of "highly qualified" teachers that doesn't meet the needs of its students, and allows children to drop out or to graduate with few real marketable skills or college prospects or even life skills, is pointless. What matters is results.

So I say, bring in vouchers that can be used in public or private schools, and give each school 2 years to become accredited; that is, prove through standardized (across the nation) testing and enrollment tracking, that they can educate children.

The alternative is to keep what we have, which for poor kids, is too often a failure. "

reader wrote on Nov 5, 2009 5:00 PM:

" Successful private schools have superior education because they do not tolerate disobediant, unruly, children; nor do they keep children who don't do their work. Additionally, these children have parents who care and participate in their children's education, as well as volunteer for the school. Therefore, private schools have good students who are there to learn. Everyone else gets booted out the door.

The public education system is designed and mandated to meet the needs of ALL students and does not have the perogative to boot students who are not engaging; who instead choose to engage in behaviour infractions or are generally unruly, etc. These students must be taught, as well, and brought (prodded) along through the years.

Private schools vs. public schools is the difference between St. Helena Hospital and SF General. Yes, there is a big difference, particularly in the environment, in which we expect students to learn and teachers to work.

Most public schools are weed-ridden lots that are over-stuffed with cheap portable buildings. On this you place the most diverse of learners, many of whom have parents who often don't care and do not participate with their child or in the school.

Without a public school system paid for by the tax payers, you would end up with one of two systems: (1) A contracted-out education system (still paid for with public money) which would look more like our contract prison system than an education system, or (2) a purely private system where only the well behaved and learned could go. All other students would be out on the streets (on your street too, no doubt). God bless our public school teachers, they earn every penny. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:29 PM:

" ""Qualifications" are a poor substitute for outcomes."

Actually, that's not quite right. One of the things research tells us is that teachers who are highly qualified in their field are essential to better educational outcomes. Hence the emphasis on it from NCLB. The problem is getting them into schools where they are needed the most, schools that serve minority populations.

If our schools are failing, it's with our minority populations, who make up nearly 30% of the overall population. They make up a disproportionate amount of the dropouts and students in remedial classes. I think that is a bigger problem than teacher training or schools in general. It's tied up with poverty, culture and the politics of race. "

steph wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:11 PM:

" Teacher, I don't disagree with you that culture plays a big part in the failure of many children to educate themselves. This can mean one of two things: 1) we give up or 2) we reform education.

reader--how do we know how poor children would do in private schools? Don't you suppose that there are poor children who would thrive in a private school if given the chance? For now, for many in certain neighborhoods, the only choice of schools is the one campus that mixes the unruly and unwilling with those who are trying to get an education. What if those who wanted a good education had the choice to go to a small school that offered a good education to poor kids who wanted to be there?

There are excellent public charter schools in urban areas; two that come to mind are American Indian Public Charter School and Think College Now, both in Oakland. Nobody says, "Well, you know, THOSE kids can't learn."

We need more local control and choice--public and private.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-charter31-2009may31,0,7064053.story "

reader wrote on Nov 6, 2009 11:24 AM:

" steph: I said nothing about poor children nor did I insinuate anything about class or income. MANY unruly and parentally unattended children come from higher income homes. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that this is an assumed fact. I personally know low income children who attend St. John's and they are excelling.
Please don't read your own values and beliefs into my post. "

alucawanza wrote on Nov 6, 2009 5:10 PM:

" reader:
Your post of Nov 5, 5:00 is probably the best written explanation of the system I have ever had the pleasure to read. You are exactly right. Every word you wrote is right on the mark. Your characterization of private schools is right on the mark too. Those who wish for vouchers don't understand that vouchers do not mean being able to go to the school of your choice.
Thank you for the wisdom you have shared here.
BTW: Not only weed-ridden but full of gopher holes too. "

glenroy wrote on Nov 9, 2009 4:22 PM:

" Della…. I was on an elk hunting trip…

I wouldn’t name the teachers that go through the motions, at least not their real names…mostly because they’re just putting in the hours until retirement….just ask those you know about those that do, if they don‘t know then they might be the ones. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Nov 11, 2009 10:53 AM:

" Wow, glenroy, and I'm back from my usual multitasking and other distractions.
Did you get any elk?

I really like these two comments:

5th generation: "We have lost the fact that not every kid wants to, or should go to college. (Even though in my opinnion Jr. college is now the equivalent of the old High School Diploma). But we no longer have factory jobs, we no longer have creativity and are destroying ourselfves.

"We need to bring back the full rounded education we use to have!
College prep. (for those who want to continue) Shop classes, Sports, Music and Arts, and a basic understanding of how to live in society today. "

steph: "I would bring back a strong extracurricular program of sports and arts, and I would bring back vocational training. I would lengthen the school day so that even college-bound kids could take auto shop classes or sewing or cooking. I would imrove school lunches, as well, and I would mandate that all children had to do some form of work in the school (cooking, cleaning, gardening.) I would mandate personal finance classes in high school, too."

I keep hearing (and thinking about) suggestions like these -- does anyone on a planning/administrative/political level have those things in mind? One question about lengthening the school day so college-bound students could take electives....Is that now necessary? I was college-bound, taking 3 academic majors, and yet I had time for electives. Is that no longer possible? "

orual wrote on Nov 11, 2009 11:10 AM:

" You want t know what teachers make I strongly urge you to view this. http://rondagp.wordpress.com//2009/05/14/86/ "

dellasumbrella wrote on Nov 11, 2009 12:57 PM:

" Oh, orual, that was really cool. I'm glad I visited this long stream of comments again, just to see that.

Thanks. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 11, 2009 1:49 PM:

" Wow! orual. I just watched that and all I can say is:

I am not worthy... "

sghis wrote on Nov 11, 2009 9:58 PM:

" I'm studying to be a teacher right now and I can tell you that I'm not doing it for the money. Of course I want to make a decent living and support my family but the reason I'm interested in teaching is that I feel I have experience to share and I like being around young people. I also think a lot of them need guidance from someone who they trust and look up to. I know some of my teachers had a big impact on me both positively and negatively, but I agree with Chris, there were a lot more good ones than bad. Unfortunately, the ones at either end of the spectrum are the ones we tend to remember while those who were merely good and competent seem to get lost in the shuffle. I'm experiencing the same thing now 20 years out of High School and back in College. I also see things differently and I now understand that in school as in life, you get out of it what you put into it. Unfortunately, I didn't "get" that so much when I was a younger student. I totally agree that while teachers are very important to the process, kids need to learn things at home first to have a solid foundation from which to build upon. I think that's the biggest difference now compared to 60, 40 or even 20 years ago. "

alucawanza wrote on Nov 12, 2009 1:49 PM:

" orual
Thank you for the site. I read it and was very touched. I'm going to send it to my daughter-in-law whose stepfather always uses that phrase that is so distasteful. She is a wonderful teacher. "

Raven wrote on Nov 12, 2009 2:36 PM:

" thank you orual.....I laughed and cried at the same time. "

alucawanza wrote on Nov 12, 2009 6:56 PM:

" Spoke to my daughter tonight. She teaches geometry in a public high school in another district. She had a tough day. The kids aren't doing their homework. They are on a block schedule, and she sees them every other day for 90 minutes. They must practice what they are learning to cement their understanding of the concepts. They won't do it. She asks: Don't you want to do well? Do you want to go to college? Do you want to take this class over again? Why aren't you doing your homework? This is a college prep class, and students are not doing the homework. She spoke to them about sacrifice today. They must sacrifice some of their free time for the benefit of their futures. Do the work. This is your job. They slump in their seats and endure her pep talk. She'll be getting on the phone again calling the parents.
I gave her orual's site to enjoy. Maybe she'll perk up. Maybe these kids don't belong in geometry.... "

glenroy wrote on Nov 14, 2009 12:29 PM:

" Della....nope on the elk....but I did get a nose full of nasty frostbite -4 degrees .....at 53... it's all about being there not so much about getting anything….funny you asked, at the Big Game last night seemed like every teacher and former student/athlete wanted to talk about hunting instead of the game…considering the outcome it helped sooth the wounded pride.

We were with former students and kids we’d coached...which made the hunting trip worth the subsequent trips to the DR... "

glenroy wrote on Nov 14, 2009 12:49 PM:

" orual....wow.… great motivational speaker…great delivery…not exactly the CTA line though. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 14, 2009 6:50 PM:

" "not exactly the CTA line though. "

What are you talking about Glenroy? "

glenroy wrote on Nov 15, 2009 8:48 AM:

" Teach..….what do I mean?….… protecting perverts?…preying upon students? Incompetent teachers? I’m not talking about consensual relationships, which is bad enough….I’m talking about predators. I didn’t hear him say anything about doing that…….nothing about poking students between classes….messing with students parents…..nothing about phony sick leave…nothing about blocking vouchers…nothing about blocking reform….nothing about political agenda.…single payer healthcare….….pretty much everything I heard was spot on….KIDS FIRST.

You must not have followed the CTA litigation and arbitration over the last 20 years…. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Nov 15, 2009 10:28 AM:

" Funny, they wanted to talk about big game at the Big Game. (Is elk technically big game?)

If school and sports are preparation for adult life and competition, hunting is the essence of adult life and survival. Have to respect it, even if I probably wouldn't do it myself. It's much more honest than picking packaged flesh out of a supermarket. I try not to eat anything I think I couldn't bring myself to kill. I may be fooling myself, though.

Anyway, off-topic.

Yeah, what are you talking about? "

alucawanza wrote on Nov 15, 2009 12:26 PM:

" It is exactly the CTA line. Our first interest is the education and welfare of children. Remember the CTA is composed of teachers just like Chris and me... "

a teacher wrote on Nov 15, 2009 5:22 PM:

" Glenroy - give it a rest. I thought you had something interesting to say. "

glenroy wrote on Nov 18, 2009 1:09 PM:

" No rest teach...had much to get done....besides every member, of which I'm one, has as much right to express an opinion......

Another example of another Teacher Union messing things up....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2389171/posts "

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