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Honor rolls and the harm to human spirit
Friday, July 03, 2009
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By Richard Morgan
Having been a teacher for more than 20 years, I always feel a certain amount of frustration when I continue to see year after year attention given to students who make the honor roll or who gain special recognition for “good” grades.

There is a thoroughly researched book called “Punished by Rewards” by Alfie Kohn (himself an ex-teacher as well as an author and speaker in the field of educational research), which challenges many of our traditional rewards/punishment practices in schools. It dismays me that educators continue to employ behavior modification (“carrot and stick”) strategies almost exclusively in classrooms, in school-wide activities (most of which are competitive in structure), so much so that it is rare for a staff member, student or parent to question them. Sometimes such practices are hallowed by being placed under the label of “tradition,” or, even more doubtful, as supportive of “human nature.” No one seems to want to hear that the sacred cow of competition is not natural, nor instinctive. It is taught. (See the book “No Contest: The Case Against Competition”) Consistent research shows that altruism is a basic trait among humans (not competitiveness) along with its “side effects” of greed, envy and violence. What might it do to our thinking to consider the possibility that those traits are actually learned rather than inborn? There are many who would even refuse to pose such a question because it challenges one of the foundational beliefs of their never-challenged religious dogmas, namely that human nature is flawed, even essentially sinful.
In writing this, I am hoping that it may be read by at least one parent or student who will understand in their hearts that getting straight As and Bs, making the varsity, getting on the spirit squad or receiving a certificate of academic achievement does not define success, does not make you a more worthwhile person, does not make you a “winner” and the un-rewarded as “losers.” You may be someone who improved your grades from Ds or Fs to Cs and never received any public recognition. You may be one of the hundreds of students who likes to play sports but is not allowed to use the school gyms, fields or stadiums after school because they are reserved for the exclusive use of only the “best” athletes. You are part of the greater under-appreciated majority, perhaps with some wonderful qualities (such as kindness, honesty, generosity, etc.) that schools never honor with good “grades” or bumper stickers that parents place on the rears of their cars. Regardless of whether you just graduated or are still in the system, believe in yourself, not in the praise (or lack of it) from others. Don’t let someone else decide whether or not you are good enough. There’s not a test in the world that can measure the potential of your own human spirit. That is something only you can know.

(Morgan lives in Napa.)
94 comment(s)

pharper wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:21 AM:

" As someone who once struggled in school, this letter means a lot to me and really strikes home. It's rough seeing kids getting recognized for good grades, and not on the basis of more important traits, like kindness and teamwork. While I think that hard work (and the resulting good grades should be recognized) they are not a measure of a person's worth. I have personal experience with people who are rewarded for good grades by people who do not know them, and as such do not know about other, less wonderful aspects of their personalities.

School shouldn't just be about reading, writing, and arithmetic. It should be a place where students can learn to contribute positively to the world. Grades aren't what life is about - percentages on a piece of paper mean nothing in the real world. Accomplishments are not measured in decimals carried out to the hundredth place, like GPAs imply.

Thank you very much for this letter, sir. I'm sure it will mean something to many people. "

krusty wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:48 AM:

" Another aspect is that the wealthier have more of an advantage than the poor.

For instance, wealthier families usually have the opportunity to send their children to preschools that employ the top teachers for that age group. The children may spend more time during the day learning or participating in fun activities that also expand their knowledge such as field trips.

Also, the mother of the children born into a wealthy family may have to opportunity to stay home with the children. This gives the mother the ability to teach the children on her own and help the children experience the world around them.

We can't expect our children who have no choice but to attend Head Start progams or be watched by an older sibling while the parents are at work to have the same advantages as someone born into wealth. These children born to poor families are at a disadvantage before they even start kindergarten. Then they're made to feel inferior because they lack the same knowledge as the children who had more. "

wasnapagirl wrote on Jul 3, 2009 5:43 AM:

" I didn't make straight A but feel that the kids that work hard and achive this should be reconized. How sad that we can not rejoice in the hard work of our Childred. Not all kids can make the team but this is suppose to make us strive to be better. The problem with our soceity now is that we feel everyone should be the same no matter if we work for it or not. And look where we are now. Sad ,we don't expcet things of our childred and that is where we are going wrong "

Cadence wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:05 AM:

" I don't get it - not the letter, not the responses from pharper and krusty.
Do you mean schools whose primary purpose is supposed to be academics no longer assess how well a student has done academically and instead grade them on personality traits?
All of us have to live in the real world and the real world IS competitive ("Evolution of the Species," C. Darwin comes to mind) and does assign scores.
Better that schools help teach students how to cope with this reality.
Besides, when it's my turn to have, let's say a prescription filled, I hope against hope that it's filled by someone who fully understood the math and chemistry he was taught and whose math and chemistry grades helped him get into pharmacy school. I don't want the nicest guy in the world handing me 1.0 mg pills when .10 were ordered because he never fully comprehended decimals. Mr Nice might be terribly sorry, but I will be terribly harmed nonetheless.
And a book by an educator, too cool. Is he of the same ilk who brought us "fully researched" but ultimately wrong and useless whole language learning and new math? Betcha he's one heck of a nice guy, though, so his words thereby become gold? "

bob2 wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:09 AM:

" Being gifted in athletic or academic ability certainly doesn't guarantee success,happiness ,etc. in life. I've seen

many gifted and troubled people in my life. None the less, I have no problem with achievement awards. Effort in life can enrich our lives as well as others. Schools being the venue for learning as well as athletics,(maybe too much so), it seems appropriate that these should be honored there. Life will honor kindness,honesty, and genorosity.Parents would do well to teach their children about the Bell Curve;that most of us are somewhere in the middle in abililities and gifts, that we can all achieve more, and the qualities that will take you farther in life than just one or two unusal gifts. "

noblindershere wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:26 AM:

" Yes we still have honor rolls and varsity squads that get recognition,but there are also awards given throughout many of our schools for those students that have overcome obstacles and made improvement. For instance, children are given awards for creativity, displaying good citizenship, helpfullness, school spirit etc. One program locally that gives scholarships to students that have made drastic changes in their lives is, If Given a Chance. So, I understand your frustration with the public acknowledgment of "honor roll " and student athletes, yet there are several other awards given throughout our district that recognize the people you are talking about that were never recognized before. "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:33 AM:

" Socialism= Everyone is the same. No one gets their "feelings" hurt. No rewards for something you worked hard for. No chances to work hard so that you can BE above others.

This letter defines SOCIALISM.

It's true, I've almost always made the honor roll. I've almost always made any sports teams I've tried out for. Because I wanted it. When I make a team, or see my name in the Newspaper, I know I worked hard for it, I know I deserve it, and if it's not there, you ARE going to hear about it.

There are rewards for those who improve, there are awards for those who were good from the start. There are no rewards for those who don't try, because they DO NOT CARE. Not giving those who deserve award their award will make them think it's not worth it to work really hard and get absolutely nothing in return.

In real life, you have your job, and if you do well at that job, you get a promotion, a raise, or a bonus (not the self given AIG ones), which all amount to more money. If you do badly you get fired.

By your standards, my family should be ROLLING in money. Guess what? We're not. But my mom stays at home with us. But I have good grades. So does my sister. We're both really good at sports. But we're not rich. We live in a middle class home with middle class cars.

Accomplishment defines success. There's no way around it. "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:39 AM:

" Oh brother, how sad you have to bring down those students who do well in school. Then have the gall to blame the wealthy for others students.

The bottom line is how the student applies himself. it is up to the individual to seek their own goals. Every business, law firm, educational institution are full of people that came from disadvantaged backgrounds who wanted to succeed.

Having watched the kids in Napa during the "Big Game" I would say todays parents are failures at instilling values and respect in their children. That is today's biggest failure, not children who achieve. "

Sandra wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:47 AM:

" OH PLEASE....
I have two children. One was a barely C grade student, and one was a straight A student.
Was the C student less capable? Was he not quite as smart? OR was he totally capable, extremely smart, but just did not give a damn about school and grades?
Was the A student priviliged? Did he think of himself as a winner and his brother a loser? Or was he very motivated to succeed because of who he is?
I get real tired of this type of thinking. Most kids should be able to get decent grades in school. It is not that hard. Most times what is lacking is the will to do so. There are exceptions. There are those with learning disabilities, and other severe problems due to family situations. BUT for the most part it depends on what the kids priorities are.
Now the writer is correct that getting mediocre grades does not determine the success you will acheive as an adult. The C student is doing extremely well in his career in the Air Force. BUT why is that? Not because of the C grades. He never did a bit of homework. Computer games were his priority. He is doing well because his attitude adjusted itself when he joined the military. He became motivated.
Tha A student WORKED HARD in school. The A's just didn't magically appear. He DESERVED every bit of recognition he got.
He has always been a hard working person. SO don't make it seem as if the poorer students are misunderstood, and the good students undeserving of their recognition.
These kids choose their path once they are high school age. They are responsible for what they do. "

misfit wrote on Jul 3, 2009 8:06 AM:

" Reminds me of the time when early in middle school, my son worked hard to make the Honor Roll. He was so committed to it that when he missed it by only a slight margin on one grade, that he approached the teacher to discuss the grade that he felt should have been higher.
As he approached her desk, she didn't even look up at him. What she did say was, "What did you expect...to make the Honor Roll?". This broke his heart but he came away more determined.
How a teacher can be allowed to diminish a child's efforts in that way is beyond me. Her reward for cutting the heart out of a child, was to become a principle at private school in Marin County, if you can believe it. He went on to make the Honor Roll and ran for class treasurer several times until he was elected. I was very proud of him but, clearly that teacher did more harm to his spirit, although briefly, than anything else.
So much for making the Honor Roll when there are teachers out there cutting the hearts out of children. What does it all mean for those children who work harder and for whom, things don't come easily. Will they be forever overlooked? "

PastNapan wrote on Jul 3, 2009 8:55 AM:

" Wow Krusty here you go again. You really really have an ax to grind with the wealthy don't you? I grew up in a poor familyand guess what I made the honor roll. Try something called studying. I didn't go to college and yet I've become a success. It's called HARD WORK. You want everything handed to you. You are beat before you even start, just blame the wealthy. School gets us ready for the real world. Athletics where no one wins or loses is ridiculous. Now we need to get rid of the honor roll because it will cause hurt feelings. More liberal nonsense. In the real world you must compete for a job. At least for now, if the libs get their way those of us that work will just support you all. "

telebender wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:28 AM:

" I have to disagree. I don't believe in sin, but I do believe that humans are a mix of benevolent and selfish impulse, constantly at war, and changeable as to which is dominant at any one time by circumstance.
I have known selfish dogooders and benevolent criminals.

By all means support the selfless impulses in schools, but don't forget Darwin: the best always win in the end. "

Mr4 wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:36 AM:

" There once was a pretty good student
Who sat in a pretty good class
And was taught by a pretty good teacher
Who always let pretty good pass.
He wasn’t terrific at reading,
He wasn’t a whiz-bang at math,
But for him, education was leading
Straight down a pretty good path.
He didn’t find school too exciting,
But he wanted to do pretty well,
And he did have some trouble with writing
Since nobody taught him to spell.
When doing arithmetic problems,
Pretty good was regarded as fine.
5+5 needn’t always add up to be 10;
A pretty good answer was 9.
The pretty good class that he sat in
Was part of a pretty good school,
And the student was not an exception:
On the contrary, he was the rule.
The pretty good school that he went to
Was there in a pretty good town,
And nobody there seemed to notice
He could not tell a verb from a noun.
The pretty good student in fact was
Part of a pretty good mob.
And the first time he knew what he lacked was
When he looked for a pretty good job.
It was then, when he sought a position,
He discovered that life could be tough,
And he soon had a sneaking suspicion
Pretty good might not be good enough.
The pretty good town in our story
Was part of a pretty good state
Which had pretty good aspirations
And prayed for a pretty good fate.
There once was a pretty good nation
Pretty proud of the greatness it had,
Which learned much too late,
If you want to be great,
Pretty good is, in fact, pretty bad.

Charles Osgood, 1986

There is nothing wrong with recognizing excellence! "

common sense wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:44 AM:

" Maybe if the socialists in our schools went back to educating instead of worrying about people's feelings, we wouldn't have a financially broken and academically abysmal education system in this country. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:53 AM:

" I'm for honoring good students, good athletes and honoring everybody else too.

The middle and high school environment is a unique hot house that is completely irrelevant the day after graduation day. However, teens are not ready to hear that news until ... the day after graduation.

If the school doesn't honor it's 'regular' students the parents have an opportunity to love them and build them up.

telebender- You have it right. We need to cherish those that do well.

However, we must remember that many times the 'A' student and athletes end up working for 'C' students with talents that were not appreciated in school.

~Ruff "

a teacher wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:58 AM:

" I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. Being recognized and rewarded for ones efforts are also human needs. Competition is as much a part of human nature as altruism is. We are social creatures, an anyone who studies that will tell you that advancing and maintaining social status drives behavior whether you are a wolf, a sheep or a human being.

Students work in a world where their efforts are not tangible or immediately apparent. Few have the maturity to see how the skills they are learning in school impact their lives as adults. Motivation is key to keeping students going. Being a kind person is a fine thing, but it is not good enough to operate in the real world.

Additionally, if you read developmental psychology(Paiget, Erikson, Kohler) you'll discover that qualities such as empathy and altruism are NOT things we born with but that develop as the brain grows and gains the ability think outside of itself. Children do not necessarily see the satisfaction of a being a good person as being a sufficient reward for doing something.

Finally, while I agree that a feeling of self worth is important, it is not particularly useful if you can't provide yourself with the necessities of life. "

winewoman wrote on Jul 3, 2009 10:43 AM:

" The satisfaction comes years later when, as one of the under appreciated majority, you realize that the football starts, cheerleaders and honor roll achievers are just like everybody else; they struggle with life's problems, setbacks, pain and challenges like everyone does. Their time in the spotlight is very short and, as adults, they often stuggle with the reality that the world does not revolve around them. It almost makes one want to feel sorry for them. Until you realize that they likely went to college on a scholarship and you're still paying off your student loans. "

krusty wrote on Jul 3, 2009 11:38 AM:

" No, pastnapan, I don't have an axe to grind. I hear everyone saying we're a country of equals and then I look at the real world and I see a group that benefits more based on their social status. That's the way it is and you're kidding yourself if you don't think the rich have a bigger advantage than the poor. I'm not blaming the rich for being rich (I never did) and I'm not saying some of the poor won't ever be what we call "successful."

It's the rich who say they don't have things any easier than the poor. The statistics tell a different story. The children of college graduates are much more likely to attend college themselves. The main reason being that the parents can afford to send their children to college.

Going back to my original post, I was on the honor role when I was in school. I was placed in the most advanced math class in middle school out of sixth grade. My family wasn't rich but I did have a mother who worked from home and was able to spend time with me teaching me things that would help me do better in school. I feel that I benefitted greatly from that. Unfortunately, not all children have that benefit. And families where the children don't have the same luxury I had having a harder time in school. "

pharper wrote on Jul 3, 2009 11:43 AM:

" I don't disagree that good grades should be rewarded. People work hard for them, and it's a commendable achievement to make the honor roll or get straight A's. But other people are equally deserving of things. Not everyone can be measured by the same criteria. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole - some people just don't fall into the same categories. Does that make them less worthy? No, it just means we can't critique them the same way we would others.

Think of it this way - an artist may not be good at math. He may have tried tutoring, and staying after school, and is still just not getting it. He gets poor grades in his math classes because he struggles with it. But he is an amazing artist. His artwork is masterful, incredible. When people look at his paintings, they see true talent. But his grades don't reflect that. Does that mean he doesn't deserve recognition? Does that mean he hasn't worked hard?

Trying to measure everyone by the same standards is socialism. Trying to ensure that everyone's worth is recognized is not. "

i4aneye wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:03 PM:

" i had 2 kids graduate high school the same year. the first one had average grades and just kinda cruised through school. the second one had dropped out of school for a year or so but came back to graduate at adult school. though i would never admit it, i was much prouder of the achievement of the kid who came back to school after dropping out. "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:27 PM:

" Several years ago I was looking at one of the middle schools website here in Napa. I came across the Mission Statement for the school and was shocked, but not surprised by what I had read.

The bulk of the staement had to do with.....wait for it..........Diversity.It was only the last two sentences that dealt with education. Once I read the statement several times, I began to feel sorry for the students. Their education had been put on the backburner to make way for an agenda of indoctrination. Teacher defining political agenda's versus teach the three "R's", forced to "Convcenient Lie" as if were the gospel. Did you know about the cut and paste sceens? Questionable pictures on classroom walls....disgusting.

Too bad, California once were the best of the best in the U.S. Now, they are just reeducation camps for the left. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jul 3, 2009 12:53 PM:

" In our city, state, and country, who gets more recognition than successful students or those who sing well? Who gets more space on the pages of this newspaper, young scholars or athletes? I'm guessing that most readers can name famous singers, dancers, actors and athletes than scholars. We live in an anti-intellectual climate, and we've recently witnessed the age of an intellectually-regressive era known as the Reagan Revolution. It's about time that scholars receive their due. Scholars deserve even more recognition than they get. Not less. "

proudmama2 wrote on Jul 3, 2009 1:03 PM:

" Mr. Morgan- Thanks for taking the words out of my mouth. We recently had to pull our child from River School. He was having a difficult time there. He was recently tested and was found to be in the gifted realm. His grades didn't always show that on the report cards he received. He thinks outside the box and the schools can't teach to that. I understand the competition thing but not to the detriment of someone who is not being recognized for his intellect because he doesn't fit inside the box. "

charliesheen wrote on Jul 3, 2009 1:20 PM:

" Typical liberal pablum. Wanting to give good grades for "kindness". Truth be told, the author wants those with no skillset or the desire to develop one to be rewarded on the same level as those who actually produce something of value.

Solution: Start your own company and hire only those with the qualities not graded in school. So what if reading and writing are intelligible. So what if math errors break the bank. Your employees are kind and generous. They will speak on your behalf in bankruptcy court.

Better still, get a job with the state and spend other people's money to make yourself feel good. "

bloodagar wrote on Jul 3, 2009 1:49 PM:

" Both of my girls make pretty good grades, they are made to read for as long as they wish to play their DS's.

This summer has already shaped up to be running around outside, playing DS's-gamecube-wii, watching Disney, reading their books and doing at least 5 pages of Math and Language Arts each.

Academics are extremely important for our family, but most importantly WE teach them the fundamentals of success...they are expected to do well in everything they do and to excel at the things they love the most.

Now, having said that...I firmly believe that those children who go above and beyond in their academic lives absolutely SHOULD be rewarded...as should their parents.

Those children who have learning disabilities, PARENTS: do YOUR best to support them and work with them MORE than you think you should.

Those children who get mediocre or just barely passing grades, PARENTS: get off your lazy butts and encourage them to do their best, insist they read a book and push themselves to BE BETTER.

Those children who are not getting by: you most likely not succeed at anything unless you change your unacceptable behavior fast and soon. Once you are dug in deep: very difficult to pull yourself out!
I was able to pull myself out of the rut I (**) put myself into....you can do it too. (Parents of these kids, please pass it on as these children are not reading this...they are out doing nothing somewhere unsupervised). "

glenroy wrote on Jul 3, 2009 2:00 PM:

" Public schools cause a lot more harm than Honor Rolls…. "

cab e-girl wrote on Jul 3, 2009 2:10 PM:

" Krusty, I like the way you just assume that rich mom's get to stay at home with their kids. Did you ever consider that certain families make sacrifices so that mom can stay home with their children? They don't buy new cars, don't take luxurious vacations, they don't buy and wear stylish new clothes and in general sacrifice their careers so that they can actually raise their children and pass down their values to their children-which is more important to them than anything money can buy. Krusty you are way off base if you think that money is what it takes to raise well balanced, smart, focused and happy children.

The notion that we should not value or reward excellence is absurd. The notion that a child that works very hard in school should not be recognized for their accomplishments is nothing short of social engineering. Children that do well in sports are cheered and celebrated by their teammates and parents. Children with kind hearts and warm personalities are blessed with many friends. The idea that we should not honor those kids that work hard in academics is ridiculous and Mr. Morgan I respectively disagree with your socialistic agenda and in general the encouragement of the dumbing-down of our society. "

a teacher wrote on Jul 3, 2009 2:42 PM:

" Freeport said:"Too bad, California once were the best of the best in the U.S. Now, they are just reeducation camps for the left. "

LOL. I teach a diverse population of students mathematics. Unless the leftist agenda is algebra, you have no idea what you are talking about.

PHarper: "Trying to measure everyone by the same standards is socialism."

No it's not. That has nothing to do with socialism. It's called STANDARDS. It's also the fairest way to do things. The standard of an accomplishment shouldn't change based of the person. You wouldn't want your doctor to have earned their degree that way.

This whole thing smacks of the anti-intellectualism that is killing education. We should celebrate academic achievement with the same gusto we celebrate our athletes and our pop stars. Instead I have to watch brilliant kids stop trying so they don't get called "nerds". It's disgusting. "

alucawanza wrote on Jul 3, 2009 2:53 PM:

" freeport56
Name the school...Was it in Napa?

I can't believe that this letter has caused a discussion of socialism. This is about the invisible student. They are in every class. They need affirmation like everyone else. This is just about the development of a child. Effort should not just be recognized by grades or varsity letters. Every child is important. Not just the "golden" ones. "

kevin wrote on Jul 3, 2009 4:08 PM:

" This letter sure helps to explain why California schools are dead last in student performance... "

Cowboy wrote on Jul 3, 2009 5:18 PM:

" common sense wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:44 AM:
" Maybe if the socialists in our schools went back to educating instead of worrying about people's feelings, we wouldn't have a financially broken and academically abysmal education system in this country. "

Thank You, Common sense, I couldn't have said it better. The radical left has taken over and severely broken our education system. "Feeling" are now considered more important than achievement. Try your best to figure out how bizarre that is. Teaching our kids what to think instead of how to think is the liberal mantra. Is it any wonder that Obama, who never ran even a lemonaid stand now decides who works and what they get paid in financial institution,s the auto industry, and health care is next.

Competition made us the most productive country on the planet, and Obama runs around apologizing for it. Where is the man's pride for what this country has accomplished?

Sad, very very sad. "

3napan wrote on Jul 3, 2009 6:54 PM:

" I think that schools do the best with what methods they have. It is up to the parent to create an environment that makes children feel rewarded for who they are as individual, whether it be academics, arts, technology, etc. If you child knows who they are and you have taught them they are special as individuals, then it really doesn't matter if they get awarded or not. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:09 PM:

" Until Californians repeal Prop 13, the state's public school system, and its students, will continue to suffer.

Californians have let the state's infrastructure deteriorate.

Repeal Prop 13! "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:53 PM:

" pharper says: 'It's rough seeing kids getting recognized for good grades, and not on the basis of more important traits, like kindness and teamwork. While I think that hard work (and the resulting good grades should be recognized)'

First you say it's rough to see kids recognized for good grades, but then you say they should be. Your point is?

Then you say: 'people who are rewarded for good grades by people who do not know them, and as such do not know about other, less wonderful aspects of their personalities.'

Recognition for grades has nothing to do with personality. I never would assume straight As = nice person. There is no correlation. There are other ways that we find out a person's character. You won't get anything useful mixing measurement of good grades with 'nice person' attributes. They are separate characteristics and should be measured differently.

Any young person graduating today from a "feelgood" academic environment is going to be at a serious disadvantage to a student who had to work hard for the good grades. If everyone gets an A, why work?

That's where the socialist argument comes in. Socialism seeks to pull everyone down to the same low level. You don't need better grades. Just wait for the government to take care of you. Anyone who strives to make a better life for themselves and their family will see it taken away from them and given to someone else who doesn't see the need to be productive.

Witness Obama's comment about how it would be better to take yours and giving it to someone else. On another thread here someone said Obama is not a socialist, but that comment of his says it all for him. "

krusty wrote on Jul 3, 2009 11:53 PM:

" cab e-girl, I never said rich moms get to stay at home with their kids. I like the way you assume I did. To quote myself, I said "the mother of the children born into a wealthy family may have to opportunity to stay home with the children." Second, if you have to make sacrifices such as not buying new cars or stylish clothes for yourself or your children in order to be a stay at home mom, you certainly wouldn't fall into what I define as wealthy and I don't think you would fit many others definition of wealthy either.

You also obviously didn't read my second post where I explained my own experience when I was a child. I'm not going to take the time to repeat what I already said. "

a teacher wrote on Jul 4, 2009 12:26 AM:

" That a 13 year old brought up the socialism connection to this in not surprising. That adults are running with it is just wacky. Do any of you actually know what socialism is? I doubt it. "

pharper wrote on Jul 4, 2009 1:58 AM:

" I don't think I implied that every student should get an A. I just think that being recognized for grades and grades alone is not a good way of choosing students who warrant rewards and recognition. It doesn't make sense to me for a person who has been mean or abusive to other students, or done drugs, or gotten high or any number of bad things to be recognized solely on the basis of stellar grades - a person like that does not deserve to be recognized, good grades or not. I think things like "honor roles" should actually include some clauses about honor. Rather than just good grades, it should be a matter of character, work ethic, and grades.

You may note that I didn't simply say "it's rough to see kids get rewarded for good grades." A very important clarifying clause of the sentence is "and not on the basis of more important traits, like kindness and teamwork." I do think good grades are commendable, but being on the honor role or being rewarded should be about much more than simply that.

You said, "If everyone gets an A, why work?" To that, my response is - if people who are better at school than me, even if they aren't nice people, are going to get recognized solely on the basis of how well they do in class, why should I bother? Why would I work hard to get better grades and be a better person if I know that someone with higher grades is going to get the prize, regardless of their character? "

kevin wrote on Jul 4, 2009 9:47 AM:

" MJH, Prop 13 is never going to be repealed. Get over it.

Since Prop 13 was enacted property tax revenue increased 579 percent!

The States population only increased 58 percent.

Now, tell me again why Prop 13 is the cause of our financial problems? "

sandra wrote on Jul 4, 2009 10:54 AM:

" In regards to "Why would I work hard to get better grades and be a better person if I know that someone with higher grades is going to get the prize, regardless of their character? "...
Because that is NOT what the goal of education should be. For the life of me I just do not get why you, or anyone else, would choose to base their actions on the actions of another. Why would you give anyone else that kind of control over you? Because someone, you obviously have no respect for, gets recognition, you choose to under acheive? Well that will show em, won't it? Hey, I got news for you, they probably don't even know you exist.
So instead of basing your choices on what others do, or don't do, on what they get, or don't get...How about focusing on what YOU NEED to be successful in life?
Maybe I was an oddity in high school, but I really never gave a thought to awards, or the honor roll. I got above average grades, never received any formal recognition that I remember, but I learned what I needed in order to be a responsible grown up. I learned my math, english, history, and art. I was successful in school, because I focused on what was important for myself.
I also do not recall anyone making such a fuss over theory that this letter puts before us. Have we turned into a society of cry babies?...waaaaa, it's not fair...boohoo. Well get over yourselves and what others get that you don't get. Quit being envious of others successes and focus on your own. "

steph wrote on Jul 4, 2009 12:22 PM:

" *sigh*

Can't a nerdy girl like me just claim her spot on the honor roll?

All the cool and pretty girls got the boyfriends, and had cars and nice clothes. They were validated every day just for showing up, it seemed. The good athletes won medals. The drama students got applause. Oh, how I wanted to be "popular."

I had two full-time working parents, a key to the house in my backpack, and I was funny looking, right down to my clothing.

But the one thing I was proud of was my brains and my hard work. While other people went shopping at the mall or to cheerleading camp, I was studying for a test or writing a paper, or riding my bike home.

My role in school was as one of the smart kids. I was comfortable with that, while admiring those students with other talents.

I'm most proud today of my friends, most of who did not go directly to college, who kept my feet on terra firma, and taught me to live a little and have a little fun. They're still fun as grown-ups, and are good moms, too, and greatly I admire them, and I'm grateful for their influence. One of them just got her Masters in education at age 41.

I do hope that teachers recognize that each child does have unique talents. Genuinely kind words of admiration alone can be extremely influential--life-altering, even. For some kids, your kind words can be the nicest thing anyone has ever said to them or recognized about them. And some "awards" can be practically meaningless.

Still, a spot on the honor roll is a worthy endeavor. "

a teacher wrote on Jul 4, 2009 2:45 PM:

" "Since Prop 13 was enacted property tax revenue increased 579 percent!"

That seems unlikely. Where did you get that fact from?

The damage prop 13 did to schools is an unintended consequence. It's not the revenue, it's how schools get funded. Schools used to get fuinded by local property taxes and nowthey are funded through the Stat's general fund. Local funds primarily backed by sources such as property taxes are more stable than state funds backed by income taxes. Prop 13 is not the only culprit to the decline of California schools, but you can track the fall from the passage of Prop 13 onward. "

pharper wrote on Jul 4, 2009 2:51 PM:

" Sandra, I meant for my question to be more of a rhetorical response to PlasticPinkFlamingo's question. I didn't quite mean it to be literal or to represent me; I'm sorry if it sounded that way.

I'd never let someone else dictate whether or not I do well in school. As steph said about herself, I am not athletic, trendy, or especially popular. I've always been the person people come to when they need a paper edited or an idea for an essay. I work in theatre, yes, but behind the scenes - and who ever applauds the stage manager? Intelligence and learning are things I prize above just about anything else. I don't need an award to know when I do well, and I work hard with the knowledge that doing so will only help me in the future, regardless of whether or not I receive awards for it.

However, I think there is far more to being a good student than good grades alone. Being on the HONOR role should have something to do with honor (I know the word is not used in the same connotation, but bear with me). Yes, you do need to work hard to get ahead, but being mean to other people, or doing drugs, or being vain and arrogant will not help you. I think someone who deserves to be on the honor role is someone with above-average grades who has displayed exemplary moral character and shown themselves to be a benefit to society at large. Let students with stellar grades be recognized, but I don't understand why school shouldn't be about more than what percentage you got on your math test. "

Sandra wrote on Jul 4, 2009 8:13 PM:

" Pharper,
I figured it was a rhetorical response. But obviously you felt it was a justified response, and I do not agree. People are much too focused on things outside of themselves, and getting what the other guy has. They are envious of others, and it seems to be a trend I see more and more in the last couple of generations. Perhaps being raised by parents who lived during the depression gave me a different viewpoint. I was taught to be selfreliant, and too not look for approval of my acomplishments, but to be proud of them for what they were. I was supported and loved. And told I might not get everything I wanted, but most likely would get what I needed.
Why do so many think that some are better than others, and that being like that other guy is more important than being yourself? It seems to me to be a very needy type of viewpoint to hold. Are we all supposed to get a ribbon to prove our worth? That is just ridiculas.
Life is not fair, and if you do not learn how to handle dissapointment, and recover from losses, then you will never be a happy adult. "

a teacher wrote on Jul 5, 2009 10:07 AM:

" PHarper-Being a miserable human being does not negate your honors. It can be an obstacle to success, but not always.

Being a wonderful human being doesn't mean much if you can't get the job done. If I need something done I'll take a talented SOB over an incompetent nice guy.

My job is to teach math, not character. That's a parents job. "

les wrote on Jul 5, 2009 10:45 AM:

" Life is competitive. We compete for jobs, we compete for income, we compete. The winner of the race gets the gold medal. The winner of the election gets the office. The winner of the sales contest gets the reward. The winner for the best grades gets recognized by getting on the honor roll. The people who didn't win pick themselves up and go at it again, no whinning just do it. That's the American way. "

alucawanza wrote on Jul 5, 2009 11:38 AM:

" a teacher
True. It is your job to teach math, not character. But you are teaching character every day by setting expectations for your students and by your honorable actions and manners. You are a role model. I have seen the results of teachers' behaviors on my own children. My daughter is a Math teacher. She wanted to be just like her high school Math teacher who never turned her away when she needed help. That's character building.

All kids need affirmation of some sort each day. A friendly word, a sincere compliment, interest in their lives, a wink and a smile....whatever. They are kids... "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 5, 2009 2:41 PM:

" freeport-
I went to that school for a while. Trust me, they take that seriously. Though they did give out Honor Roll certificates, they spelled most people's names wrong... but other than that, you weren't recognized for anything. They even let most the people who tried out for Sports Teams be on the team, even though there were so many that you got to play for 2 minutes or so before you got substituted.

teacher-
While I don't know the exact definition of socialism, I know exactly what it implies, everyone "equal". Even if you find the cure for cancer, you make the same amount of money as that one guy that works at McDonalds because they did drugs and dropped out of High School.

MJH-
I'm not suffering. Neither are my friends. "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 5, 2009 2:52 PM:

" Steph-
It's not like that anymore. Some kids are popular and dumb. Some kids are total nerds and have no social life. Most kids are like me and my friends (guys and girls) are really good at sports, have lots of friends and *gasp* made the honor roll for 4.0. Oh, most of us are Mexican (or "half-breed" Mexican, in my case.) we're not rich, but we might get cars because we worked hard. It's not a social pyramid anymore... more like a trapezoid... ;) There are different groups that for the "top". The soccer people, the skaters, the rich ones... The ones at the "bottom" are failing, antisocial, or pretend to be someone they're not. "

sickonapkins wrote on Jul 5, 2009 3:36 PM:

" If the public school system actually educated students properly the Honor Roll might actually prove something to me...but they don't. In a 1/2 semester of math 94 i learned more than 4 full years of high school math. I actually had a math teacher tell me flat out that i was wrong in front of the whole class when i was right. I was one to rarely raise his hand so how is that supposed to make me feel? Now I had a few good teachers but what made them good teachers made the majority bad. They knew how to make me feel good about my work and actually showed an interest in helping me out. Most of the teachers I had acted like drones. They talked in front of the class for a little, handed out work then sat at their desk for the rest of class. When you would walk up to their desk it almost seemed like an inconvenience for them to help you. The good teachers spent their time walking around interacting with students and helping students before they even had to think about getting up from their desk. If teachers actually seemed like they cared about helping students kids would notice and try harder. When you don't understand something and it doesn't seem like the teacher wants to even help you what are kids supposed to think? The blame isn't all on the teachers though but that is what kids will notice first and foremost. 36+ kids in a class and what $75 for teachers to spent on materials for the whole year means that public education will be sub-par for years and years to come "

a teacher wrote on Jul 5, 2009 4:38 PM:

" Alacawanza: I know that. My goal is to be as decent a person as I can be. That means I have to confront poor behavior and encourage good behavior. That means treating people decently. But still, it's not my main job, nor is it a student's job to be decent to everyone.

Angeline-I think you could sum up socialism by saying that a socialist believes that everyone preforms an essential job in society and that the economic output should be divided equally. Ideally people in a socialist economy work for the love of the work rather than the financial reward.

I'll be the first to admit it's a pie in the sky vision.

Some people would become doctors because they love the work. My sister delivered packages for FEDEX for 25 years. She told me that she loved driving the truck, getting exercise and at the end of the day, she didn't have to think about her job. Money isn't everything. I could have done many different things in my life, but I'm suite to teach and I like it.

Saying everyone is equal is not the same as saying everyone is the same. We have equal rights in the USA and equal opportunity. But that doesn't mean we're all the same. "

Cassandra wrote on Jul 5, 2009 7:31 PM:

" While I believe that Mr. Morgan's
comments are well meant, I can't
agree. There ARE standards, and in
an increasingly global economy, our
kids need to be competitive. Congratulations to the honor roll kids. "

steph wrote on Jul 5, 2009 9:24 PM:

" And, believe me, there is a lot of cooperation between the honor roll kids, too. They really do help each other with studying and group assignments. The call each other to ask what the homework is--all that.

I don't think you have to trade honor or character or anything else to make the grades-based honor roll. There are star athletes and musicians and even very "nice" people on the honor roll. "

Raven wrote on Jul 5, 2009 10:45 PM:

" Since the assessed value jumps each time the property is sold (until recently), and we just went thru a period of hyper inflation of property values, I would be surprised if it hadn't jumped....but 579?..what baseline value are you using? and what locale? and how many time had that property been sold?....give us the numbers glenroy..otherwise it is just opinion "

funnyme wrote on Jul 6, 2009 9:08 AM:

" Seeing "that 13 year old" name on the 4.0 Honor Roll in today's newspaper just gave my family a 'promotion and a raise' for a job well done!
You see, it goes beyond the obvious, as a parent, seeing my daughter's desire to succeed and stay on top been RECOGNIZED not only by the school but by the community's newspaper as well makes us realize that we are doing a good job in raising responsible adults.
Our kids' job is to do well in school, behave decently (following the Ten Commandments, basically)and the rest will just follow. "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 6, 2009 9:58 AM:

" a teacher-

L.A. City schools until 8th grade. I do know what I am talking about. In the 1960's California Schools, all of them, were considered the best in the country.

Now thanks to CTA and other teacher unions they have gone down hill and fast. CTA spent over $4 million dollars to pass 1A thisa past may.


Why not give that money back to the schools if they are hurting so much? "

Tinamac wrote on Jul 6, 2009 10:16 AM:

" It's not like there is a dishonor roll... this is ridiculous. Hard work is it's own reward... something we just don't teach our children anymore. My son struggles to get on the honor roll each and every time... it's not about keeping up with the Jones kids (my son is NOT rich by any stretch!) but he puts in overtime on his school work in hopes his school career will be extended to college placement with a good track record. Parents need to teach their children core values WORKING HARD to attain higher achievment and success in later years. When did it become politically incorrect to reward hard work!?! I'll drive the point in again tho, my son has NO MONEY! No handouts, but he does have DRIVE, I feel sad for others who don't have even that. "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 6, 2009 10:49 AM:

" Yay! Most of my friends made the '4.0' Honor Roll! You, know, competing against each other makes it more fun... any form of competition makes anything more fun... "

tangent wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:18 AM:

" freeport56: Why do you think that the CTA and other teachers' unions would want to destroy the integrity of public schools? You do know that the CTA is made up of....teachers. You know, those people who have completed 6 years of college education and training and have dedicated their lives to helping students learn and succeed...

But of course, it naturally follows that they, among all of the people involved in education, would be the first to sabotage the integrity of their life's work. Right?

By what stretch of logic do you make your assertion that the supposed "demise" of public education is the result of the deliberate attempt of teachers to undermine schools?

On point: honor rolls are only as good as the assessment of student learning upon which the grades are based. The letter grade I give to my students is the singularly most useless piece of information they will receive in my class if I don't authentically assess what a student can actually do with the information, skills, and concepts they have learned in my class. There is not necessarily a correlation between a good grade and the ability to retain or apply that information outside of the classroom in real-life situations.

Grades are quite often a reflection of a student's ability to take a particular type of test, not a reflection of their capacity to apply learning in novel contexts, i.e., the "real world." Our educational system and culture often emphasize grades over actual learning because it's much easier to grasp that A = Excellent, B = Good, C = Average, D = Fair, and F = Poor, than it is to evaluate learning through more nuanced means. "

localchick wrote on Jul 6, 2009 1:10 PM:

" I was in band, orchestra, and choir all 4 years. I took 2 dance classes a week outside of school hours. Junior-Senior years I worked 2 jobs. And I was on the honor roll earning the academic lamp all but 1 semester... I got a "D" in math my sophmore year, but I still made honor roll that semester because I worked really hard... I'm confused about the idea that honor roll students are doing drugs. Most of the people I knew that did drugs didn't have the drive or dedication to be on the honor roll--the drugs took the motivation away! People are rewarded by grades by people that don't know anything else about them? Are you refering to getting into college or scholarships? Because those require essays and extra-curricular activities. Granted I graduated 7 years ago, but grades were based off of your hard work, doing your howmework and how well you grasped the concepts, but also on your cooperation with classmates.

I never went to preschool. My family is definetely not rich. I wasn't the "pretty" or "popular" kid in school, but I strived to do my best in school and make the honor roll. Having an Honor Roll isn't a bad thing-it gives middle school and high school students are aren't athletic something to strive for.

Mr. Morgan, I wish I knew what school you teach at because my daughter will be school age soon and I do NOT want her going somewhere that believes in not recognizing the scholastic achievments of their students. "

funnyme wrote on Jul 6, 2009 6:54 PM:

" Who do you know?
I bet your neighbor's kid is in it, or perhaps your kid's soccer mate, or your coworker's kid...Check it out!

It's on the NVR's Features "Life & Style" Honor Rolls...I'm warning you, it's a looong list of very fine kids :)

http://www.napavalleyregister.com/articles/2009/07/06/life/doc4a5152980877b175469327.txt "

pharper wrote on Jul 6, 2009 6:58 PM:

" Localchick, I am in no way saying that most people on the honor role do drugs; most people in general do not. However, I know of several people who are on the honor role even though they do and/or sell drugs on a regular basis. Apparently using illegal substances does not always preclude getting good grades. But do you really think people like that deserve to be on the honor role in place of people with average grades but above-average skills and traits in other areas? I certainly don't. "

Skip M. wrote on Jul 6, 2009 8:53 PM:

" Competition is how the real world operates. Teachers apply for teaching positions. Many candidates apply, credentials are reviewed, candidates are interviewed, and the best choice, the candidate that scores above the others gets the position. I would venture to say that many of the candidates that were not chosen believe they were the best for the job. A computer programming position come available. Many candidates apply. Credentials are reviewed, interviews are conducted, and selections are made based upon who presents the best package of credentials and character traits. A political office is up for election; candidates campaign and present their individual “qualifications” (OK, this one is really more of a competition for salesmanship).

My point is: We face competition every day in almost everything we do. If there is something I want, I can bet there are many others that want that goal just as much. Who gets the prize depends upon who possesses the skills, timing, and sometimes just dumb luck. I get the job because I am more skilled than my competition. Sometimes it is only one factor that makes the difference. Many more times, someone else gets the job because they have a skill or credential that I do not possess. I would love to be an Astronaut, but I do not have the physical attributes or training required for the job. I cannot compete in that arena. But I sure do admire those who can.

These are all facts of life. Cold as they are, and often difficult to swallow, this is how life is. Interesting that in communist countries, there are those that rise to the ranks of power, and those that must simply follow along. That is competition. "

funnyme wrote on Jul 7, 2009 8:16 AM:

" pharper,
"...I know of several people who are on the honor role even though they do and/or sell drugs on a regular basis..."

So, New Tech Administration is 'unaware' of these students' drug problems?
Perhaps an 'anonymous' call -from you, obviously since you know who they are and what they do- to remove those few 'bad apples'? That would make you "contribute positively to the world."

"...But do you really think people like that deserve to be on the honor role in place of people with average grades but above-average skills and traits in other areas? I certainly don't..."
I totally agree with you. I will adventure to state that most of us would encourage you to "contribute positively to the world" and do the RIGHT thing.

Who knows, you might get a recognition for a good deed...of course, you don't have to accept it either if it doesn't seem worth it to you. "

OU now wrote on Jul 7, 2009 8:40 AM:

" Honor rolls don't have anything to do with a person's self worth. How a child feels about its self is a parent's job, not the schools. We need to reward hard work. If we don't reward, nobody will try, and we will become a nation of idiots. China is fast becoming ( or is) the world leader. This is because they reward the best. I am ashamed that so many americans are "dumb" enough to fall for this" feel good" everybody is OK attitude. I teach, I recomend students that excell. I am also the father of 4, each with his/her weakness and strength. Their confidence did not come from grades or honor rolls, It came from home. If a person feels that they are not worth squat, its not because of grades. "

John Richards wrote on Jul 7, 2009 11:48 AM:

" pharper wrote: "do you really think people like that deserve to be on the honor role in place of people with average grades but above-average skills and traits in other areas?"

The honor role should be accepted for what it is, a measure of academic achievement. When we start having awards for non-academic abilities, we lose sight of what the primary purpose of a school is. "

mikeb wrote on Jul 7, 2009 12:24 PM:

" I have to echo the sentiment that I do not want my children attenting class with a teacher such as this Mr. Morgan. Any teacher who espouses eliminating acknowledgement of achievement because it may hurt the feelings of those who failed to achieve is so out of touch with reality he or she should not be allowed anywhere near a captive audience of impressionable children. How does Mr. Morgan think the real world operates? The true meaning of Mr. Morgan's sentiment is that it is OK to fail in school, that a student's feelings are more important than said student's ability to perform at a high school level upon graduation. I'm certain Mr. Morgan is one of those teachers who decry the No Child Left Behind Act. He despises being told he has to teach fundamentals, that a highschool diploma has to stand for a minimum level of academic competence. Sorry Mr. Morgan, you are paid to do a specific job. If you don't like it, quit. And good luck finding a job in the real world that will value your feelings over your measurable accomplishment. "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 7, 2009 1:59 PM:

" tangent-

Let's talk about the union and the power they hold over the state. $54 Billion went to the schools last year for 11 million students, CTA spends $4 million to pass Prop 1A this past may. If it is truly for the "Kids", put that money back into the schools.

California schools were top notch when school principals had the power to hire and fire. Teachers having sex with students put on administrative leave, still being paid, soft pornographic material on classroom walls, teachers liberal ideology made part of the class agenda, kids forced to watch Gores propaganda film, forced teaching of gay\lesbian lifestyles, students punished for sharing their conservative views......I could go on and on. "

pharper wrote on Jul 7, 2009 4:17 PM:

" funnyme, I didn't say the New Tech honor roll, did I? To the best of my knowledge, New Tech doesn't have a published honor roll. Besides, what good would it do anyone for me to tattle on other students without proof?

I don't need to be recognized for a good deed. The act of doing what's right is enough reward for me, and I'm completely content to play the role of anonymous do-gooder.

However, I believe that those who DON'T deserve to be recognized are people who, even if they have good grades, don't deserve otherwise to be recognized. Good grades are not necessarily a measure or indicator of future success - a person's got to have more than just a drive to do well in school. "

funnyme wrote on Jul 7, 2009 6:03 PM:

" pharper,
You didn't say what school is placing these kids with drug problems in The Honor Roll, but does it really matter?

"...Besides, what good would it do anyone for me to tattle on other students without proof?..."

Why would you NOT want to"contribute positively to the world" by letting the authorities (at least the school authorities) know what you know and perhaps your good deed won't go punished because ultimately the goal is to strip them off of such "honor" they don't deserve?

We are counting on you to do the right thing! "

steph wrote on Jul 7, 2009 6:30 PM:

" My youngest child wants so BADLY to be on that 4.0 honor roll...

This goal is what is driving him to remember to do his homework instead of fib that he has none, to put a little extra effort into his essays instead of rushing to type out baloney on paper, to turn in his work instead of blaming the teacher for not telling him what to do, to take a little extra time on the test instead of rushing to be the first to turn it in.

My son is very, very intelligent. Luckily he goes to a school where the teachers are requiring him to work up to his actual ability, no excuses. (Some of you may guess...) He has one more year to pull this off. It's a great learning experience for him. It's all up to him to do it. For him it's not a matter of smarts, it's a matter of maturity and integrity. He missed it last semester by just a few points....

I like what the honor roll is doing for him.

I have spoken to my children about the fact that being on the honor roll, or getting good grades means a few things: you're doing well in school, and you're leaving options open--particularly a variety of universities that will accept your applications. It does not make a person superior to others, except maybe academically. NOT doing well in school closes doors, and may be a sign of distress in the home or simply other priorities or learning styles. And there are other talents that do not show up on the honor roll. It's good to recognize those qualities in other people. "

a teacher wrote on Jul 7, 2009 6:32 PM:

" "California schools were top notch when school principals had the power to hire and fire. Teachers having sex with students put on administrative leave, still being paid, soft pornographic material on classroom walls, teachers liberal ideology made part of the class agenda, kids forced to watch Gores propaganda film, forced teaching of gay\lesbian lifestyles, students punished for sharing their conservative views......I could go on and on. "

Freeport, what on earth are you talking about? This is pure fantasy. Go spend some time at a school. "

pharper wrote on Jul 7, 2009 11:26 PM:

" funnyme, I have personal experience with telling something like that to school authorities. The problem is, teachers and administrators refuse to jeopardize students who have made the honor roll by doing anything about things like drugs. The police and schools have a system whereby a school can decide the punishment for students in such situations, and in my experience the school typically chooses to do nothing.

I don't appreciate your hounding me to tattle on other students when I don't have any concrete proof and it's really not my job. What I do and don't do is of my concern and although the internet isn't great for expressing tone, yours sounds to me like a challenge. I will not be goaded. I shared my story because it seemed pertinent to the issue, and what I choose to do with any information I may have is up to me, not an anonymous voice on the internet. I do not in any way intend to sound rude; I just would like to say that specifics and whether or not I do or have done anything about it is no one's concern but my own.

I apologize if I have misconstrued anything that you said. "

opiniagirl wrote on Jul 8, 2009 12:45 AM:

" Hey Teach - you are spot on!

Sure, let's eliminate the Honor Role - because its "exclusive"!

While we're at it let's eliminate promotions and raises. Lets also eliminate elections and competitions.

We wouldn't want anyone to feel as though they didn't work "hard enough".. heck, maybe we should eliminate pay scales and job seniority...we can just give everyone an equal pat on the back.

As an employer; I wan't someone who is driven and focused. Someone who perseveres and overcomes. Someone diligent and responsible. "Nice" only gets you so far in this life. While "nice" is...well...nice...it's not enough.

The strange thing is that most people have the ability to be the entire package. Responsible and nice! What a concept! Expect more from our youth; it doesn't have to be one or the other....ALL KIDS ARE CAPABLE OF HONOR ROLE!!!

There are a million programs and volunteers in place to help any and every child thrive academically...

My kids have to be nice AND still maintain a high GPA. My kids work VERY hard. VERY, VERY hard! Harder than most adults! They maintain high grades while excelling at sports, making the teams, volunteering and would you believe it; they can keep their rooms clean too!! All at the same time even!! And we are FAR from wealthy!

You want to deprive great kids of recognition? What would be the purpose?

To prevent the lazy kids from feeling inferior???

Seriously???

Besides, if even the dopeheads can make honor role...what's your kids' excuse?? "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 8, 2009 6:53 AM:

" pharper-
So find proof. If you hear that "Group A" is smoking pot behind "Building 1" at 3:30, tell the administrators or the cop that sometimes hangs out at your school (I think they do that for Charters...?). If they refuse, go to the NPD. Keep going higher up until you find someone who will listen.

New Tech DOES publish Honor Roll. I saw it in the paper a few days ago... "

PastNapan wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:36 AM:

" PHarper: The honor roll is about academic achievement not about character . Your reward for being a good person is being liked and having many friends. Seriously do you really need an award given out to
"nice people" oh wait then it would make the :not nice people" feel bad. Should you not graduate if people don't "like" you. Where does this nonsense end? "

funnyme wrote on Jul 8, 2009 8:39 AM:

" pharper,
I do too believe that the authorities of some schools will choose to look the other way on situations where there is not 'sufficient proof' of the accusation, unless the student is caught 'red handed'. It is disturbing that because of the complications involved (law suits from the students in question, financial losses, school and administration's tarnished reputation is what comes to mind) the punishment won't fit the crime, if any at all. In my opinion it is still the right thing to do if anonymity is compromised and a "tattler" label gets placed. However, I will be the first one to advise not to "report it" if your own safety is at risk. It's a two sided sword. Well, usually the right thing to do is not the easier one either, and that itself is a challenge.

It is not of my business what you do with what you know, you are right about that. You shared a story that, in my opinion, it might be the exception and not the rule among Honor Roll students. Imagine the potential of those students who while doing all the wrong things still can score the highest grades and be recognized for the right doings? If only given the chance to turn their lives around for the best, I wonder whose job would that be? Parents, teachers and principals, classmates, PD, community...all, some or none of the above? "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 8, 2009 11:21 AM:

" a teacher-


Maybe you should spend some time listening to what parents, the news, and other sources have told me.

As a native Los Angeleno I went to public shool in L.A. in the 60's. The schools were old but clean, well run, and gave us a good education. I graduated from a CA State University, and worked on a Graduate degree at the same school.

I f you are not aware of what is going on around you..... "

freeport56 wrote on Jul 8, 2009 11:30 AM:

" a teacher-

Why use the term"diverse"? Why not just say , I teach math? Is the key to teaching diversity? It that the new prerequesit for education? "

a teacher wrote on Jul 8, 2009 12:50 PM:

" FreePort: I talk to parents all the time, it's like, my job. I'm also the parent of 4 kids, so I've seen my share of classrooms and heard my share of what is taught in schools. I've also worked in about 11 different schools any where from inner city New York to rural Georgia.

have I seen questionable things in the classroom? Sure. I've also seen teachers lose their jobs over those things.

To address the rest -

-Teachers are entitled to due process when a charge is made. Sometimes the nature of the charge makes the teacher's presence in the class untenable. Thus you have paid leave which happens in a lot jobs under those circumstances. It beats law suits.

-Principals STILL have the power to hire and fire. They seldom do. All the union can do is ensure due process.

-Soft pornography? Are you talking about a girl in a bikini? Is that soft pornography?

-Liberal agenda? For every teacher pushing a liberal agenda there is a teacher pushing a conservative one. Most of us teach what the state says. There is no such thing as academic freedom, we are employees of the school district.

Teachers have to teach a curriculum vetted by the state. If "An Inconvenient Truth" is in the curriculum, then it is taught. If teachers have the freedom to add it, then they may.

I don't think acknowledging the fact that Heather has two mommies is the same as pushing a gay agenda, it's recognizing the facts. "

a teacher wrote on Jul 8, 2009 12:55 PM:

" Freeport- As for "diverse"...

Well, I work in what the Wall Street Journal once termed the most diverse city in America. 1/3 of my students are Phillipino, 1/3 is African American and the remainder are everything in between.

My job is communication. If you fail to take your audience into consideration, you fail to communicate. My audience is diverse.

That's a fact. It's always been a fact. I don't know why anyone thinks education has changed that much. "

pharper wrote on Jul 8, 2009 2:26 PM:

" Angelina, again, not my job to go hunt down a bunch of people doing drugs. Most drug-users, I assure you, ar enot nearly as organized as what you suggest. By the way, can you direct me to where you found the New Tech honor roll? I just searched the archives for the past year and I can't find it anywhere.

Funnyme, I absolutely will be the first to say that it is the exception, not the rule. Like I said, most people do not do drugs in general, so it follows that most people on the honor roll haven't. However, I think when we have a system set up where people who do all the wrong things can still somehow manage to get on the honor in place of people whose grades may not be quite as good but who do all the right things, that's wrong.

Yes, I do believe that academic excellence should be recognized, but not when the student displays poor judgment in other areas. I know life isn't fair, but in a situation like this, I don't see why one student with stellar grades who makes bad decisions should be honored above a student who makes great decisions and has good grades. Some students just have trouble with school. I hate the line that "all students can make the honor roll." It's not a true. Lots of kids have trouble in school, no matter how hard they work. "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 8, 2009 3:08 PM:

" pharper-
I know it's not your "job", but if you can get rid of a few potheads in society, why not do it? If you can round up enough friends and classmates and go talk to a sheriff down at NPD, they will investigate it further. If the people really are getting high and are as unorganized as you say, it shouldn't be THAT hard to catch them...

As for the honor roll... did you click "News" or "Life and Style"? "

pharper wrote on Jul 8, 2009 5:02 PM:

" I searched all categories, and found nothing. I'm pretty sure I'd have been informed at some point were my school to publish an honor roll.

That being said, I can't "rid society" of anything. Kids will still smoke pot. Can't prevent that. Wouldn't even begin to try. My apologies if I sound rude, but frankly, I don't think this discussion is pertinent anymore. "

pharper wrote on Jul 8, 2009 5:07 PM:

" I stand corrected; I found the 2008 New Tech honor roll but nothing from this year or any other. I don't think my friends knew it was published either.... "

Skip M. wrote on Jul 9, 2009 1:11 PM:

" Hey Teach:

Regarding you question “-Soft pornography? Are you talking about a girl in a bikini? Is that soft pornography?”: I am not sure how long it has been since you were a teenaged boy, if you recall what that was like, or have had a heterosexual teenaged boy living with you; but having been one at one point in my life, as well as raising one of my own right now, I know that all it takes to get a teen boy fixated on girls and all that this implies is a picture of a bikini clad female (below the age of thirty). And for those of an alternative persuasion, I am sure a picture of a swimsuit clad boy would do the same.

You need to remember that in the teen years, hormones rule nearly every facet of a young person’s thoughts. Come to think of it, I know quite a few middle agers that this would be true for as well. "

diehard4ever wrote on Jul 9, 2009 7:29 PM:

" Skip-
Glad to see you back. I miss you and the others that made this site great... Where's DARK? "

suze wrote on Jul 10, 2009 10:22 PM:

" I have enjoyed reading the really great posts on this letter from Richard Morgan,
many great points of view from parents, folks still in school and others involved in education.

I also feel for kids who do not fit the mold for 'Honor Student.'
Sure, it takes work to get on the Honor Roll, but does it mean that kids whose families are fundamentally disadvantaged and dysfuntional are unworthy?

There are many character traits that are extremely fine, but would not put you on the honor roll.
Obviously this teacher (Morgan) has seen many of them and is just trying to bring it to attention.

It makes me wonder if Bernie Madoff made the Honor Roll?

most likely he scored very high in academic achievements. However he certainly failed in the honor department, so I do see Morgan's point. "

anticommie wrote on Jul 12, 2009 2:36 AM:

" Liberals dont want the honor roll because praising someone for their personal acheivements would be like supporting capitalism, and they cant do that, it would go against their principles.
They want everyone to be the same level, and not reward success. "

a teacher wrote on Jul 12, 2009 1:56 PM:

" Anticommie-apparently you haven't been reading the responses. Myself, MJH and Ruff all side with the honor roll. "

Two Cents wrote on Jul 14, 2009 2:57 PM:

" GIVE ME A BREAK!

Just because not everyone is an athlete or 4.0 student, doesnt mean that those who are should not get their just praise!!
UNBELIEVEABLE!

All I have to say to this: I am SO glad you signed your full name to this letter.. should my child ever end up with you as a teacher, they will be promptly moved.

Good luck applying your philosophy to the REAL WORLD! "

vocal-de-local wrote on Jul 15, 2009 12:48 AM:

" What if someone is an incredibly talented pianist but their grades are "average" because most of their efforts are directed toward music? Same with any of the arts.

It seems to me that, yes, it's great seeing young people rewarded for their scholastic efforts, but if a student is also a musician who practices four hours per day, it might be tough for them to juggle academics at the same time.

Schools focus primarily on two things: Academics in general education and athletics. If you do not fit inside of that mold, you must go outside of it for rewards. I supposes there's nothing wrong with that. But I can see where it's frustrating to be a student who makes sacrifices to strengthen other areas, sometimes at the expense of academics, and not receive any rewards for their particular talent at the educational institution level. "

steph wrote on Jul 15, 2009 11:05 AM:

" vocal--
the musician will get something better than the honor roll student (many of whom are excellent musicians, by the way)--applause. They'll know the physical and emotional joy of making beautiful music, and hopefully will be able to share their talents with others who appreciate it.
Have you been to a Napa High School band performance or choir performance? Excellent!! What would a football game be without a drum line? (Ok, the whole band, but I'm partial...) I don't know about the band, I'm sure they do well, but the choir is well-traveled and award-winning. You'd be so impressed! "

O/U now wrote on Jul 15, 2009 11:18 AM:

" Why worry about those who excell In other fields? Why must they get "reward" for their works at the "institution" level? It is not the job of the education system to reward any field not being taught. Why must we raise crybabys that think that they should get praise from others? You should work to better yourself for YOU, not the praise of others. If you seek praise for yourself its too easy to forget to help others better theirselves. Because you will be too worried that they may get your "praise". Grow up and be a man or woman that does not worry about what institutions do,but do YOUR part to help others. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Jul 15, 2009 5:08 PM:

" I kindof agree with you O/U. My son was a string player. The K-12 educational system typically does not have a place for him. "Band" typically does not have a string section.

I guess the same could be said about ANY extra curricular activity?

I refused to ever pay my kids for their accomplishments. Never. If they didn't have it in them to accomplish a goal without rewards, they had to deal with it themselves, even if it meant giving up. I wanted them to have ownership. I can identify with what you're saying.

That said, why can't schools be set up like the European model? Basically, around age 12, they test you. Either you go on a strict academic track or you are directed onto a vocational track. Once you're on that track you must finish it. If you desire to go back and get on an academic track, you must first completely finish the vocational track. It's time consuming and it takes perseverance to finish.

Perhaps a school day should be shortened to deal with the very basics of education - math and language arts. Any extracurricular activity should be at the end of the day. Those who want to hang around for those experiences should either pay for it or earn it?

Our system basically babysits kids so ma and pa can work. The kids know it too. Many kids see it as a prison, where extracurricular activities are added to make it less painful.

Shorten the school day to focus on basic necessities. Why should we be paying for ANY extracurricular stuff, including sports? Vocational training is an exception. "

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