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Greed Watch

Thursday, April 23, 2009

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By MICHAEL HALEY

Napablogger

October 28th, 2009

One final thought before signing off

September 23rd, 2009

Time for local economic stimulus

August 31st, 2009

Community in a world of chaos

August 20th, 2009

Schwarzenegger finally proposes pension reform

One of my contentions about the cause of the recession has been that it has been brought about out of greed, the other issue being a lack of direction which leads to more greed.

It doesn’t appear that Wall Street gets it, even yet. One really fun demonstration is Christopher Lehman’s take down of a recent New York Magazine article by Gabriel Sherman bemoaning the fate of the poor rich Wall Streeters.

Lehman writes:

"The secret conviction coursing through Wall Street’s caverns (according to Sherman) is this": "Those who select careers in finance play an exceptional role in our society. They distribute capital to where it is most effective, and by some Ayn Rand-ian logic, the virtue of efficient markets distributing capital to where it is most needed justifies extreme salaries -- these are the wages of the meritocracy."

Um, let’s see, as Lehman points out, efficient markets would have sent capital to Katrina aid where it was most sorely needed, and the claim that capital going to lying mortgage brokers and wildly inflated mortgage securities is hardly efficient. That is what they are using to justify their high salaries? There is no doubt that the "free market" in mortgage lending badly broke down.

It is not just Wall Street, we see the same thing with the California government and public employee unions. They still don’t get that pensions are too high and that we cannot just go on paying people that much money and expect the state to be solvent.

The way the unions operate is to constantly demand as much as they can get, and there has been no direction or regulation about what makes sense. It does not make sense for Wall Street to be able to pay billions to hedge fund managers who are risking other people’s money for their greedy financial games.

But it also doesn’t make sense for us to have no limitations on what people can make and can get in pensions from the government. It makes no sense to pay prison guards over 200K a year. A pension of 90% of your highest salary is too much, and most government salaries have risen much faster than the cost of living or inflation, yet there is no plan to address any of this, it isn’t even being talked about. Until we do we are going to have big problems.

People are going to have to give up their entitlements and accept real change, change people say can’t be done is going to have to be done. California has kicked its problems down the road for decades now, and we have come to the end of the road and it is starting to kick back. Everything has to be on the table, all sacred cows, or it is not going to work.

The real underlying problem is a lack of community, a lack of stated and shared values. America is now a place whose values are that everyone is split off into special interest groups, and each of those groups tries to get as big a piece of pie as they can.

Greed is as old as humans, but what is lacking in our country is a social system that reigns that in, a set of community values that on a societal level sets high standards and watches out for the interest of the whole. We used to have that in America, but that old order has broken down to the point that it really barely exists any more. My sense is that people on the right and left are nearly desperate for that, but they don’t know how to make it happen.

We need a new sense of direction of what we value and what boundaries we are going to place on various groups. For the employee unions, not long ago they were clamoring for pay parity with the private sector, and did so successfully. They went from there to making more, then a lot more, for most of them. Maybe the direction we need to give is that pay in the public sector should never grow faster than the private economy as a whole.

Wall Street should be prevented from making investments that are too risky, financial instruments should be strictly regulated to limit risk. That will also limit salaries and bubble type profits, but the community as a whole will be far better off.

The real problem underlying all this is that lack of community, is that lack of shared values that gives a direction to behavior. That is how favored employee unions can get 100k plus pensions at age 50 that are protected, while Home Health Aides making $11.00 an hour are getting $2.50 an hour pay cuts.

That is how Wall Street traders can make millions by legally stealing the average wage earners life savings. That is what is going on and it is so out of whack that it has to stop or that system will destroy us.

Michael Haley is president of the Napa Valley Taxpayers Association. He blogs weekdays at NapaValleyRegister.com on a variety of local, state and national issues. He can be reached at michael@napablogger.com

79 comment(s)

freeport56 wrote on Apr 23, 2009 5:06 PM:

" Gordon Gecko said "Greed is Good". Maybe not! Until we can clear Washington of the Greddy Politicians that participate with wall street for the money nothing will change. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Apr 23, 2009 7:01 PM:

" In the Eisenhower days we just taxed the money right back and gave big deductions for creating jobs in the USA.

No need to limit the incomes of select groups of individuals whether it be Wall Street Weasels or prison guards.

Just raise the marginal tax rate, which also lowers the payoff for top level greed without concern for your fellow Americans.

NB- Many Republicans who want to talk the talk about tax cuts are not willing to grasp the nettle of cutting wages, and services. That's why Republicans are ever so loud about tax increases, but quite a bit less vocal when the parents begin to complain about school teacher layoffs.

America has NEVER had a pure 'free market' since the nation's inception. The founders gave OUR government the constitutional authority to regulate business and collect taxes and... the debate has always been a pendulum between too much and too little.

But Ayn Rand was not one of the founders, and we would do well to remember that.

~Ruff "

napablogger wrote on Apr 23, 2009 10:19 PM:

" We don't need to limit the salaries of Wall Street or any private industry, if when needed we regulate the business to prevent it taking down everyone else.

We do need to set salaries for government employees, though, because that is how they are set. Unless you have a better idea, we can't use market ideas because the public domain is not a business market.

I agree with you that most of those who are against taxes don't spell out what spending cuts they would undertake to accomplish that. I try to focus on that more myself to compensate for that.

The sad thing about all this is that I believe that there is plenty for what we want to do if everyone were more willing to share. "

Paddy wrote on Apr 24, 2009 7:24 AM:

" Yes Ruff but if "Atlas Shrugged" had been in print in 1750 I'm sure our founding fathers would have really appreciated it. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Apr 24, 2009 7:44 AM:

" NB- When are you going to come out with that list of cuts you promised?

It's getting close to a couple of months now.

Comparatively, the market is doing a worse job setting executive compensation than our government is doing.

How about some hard numbers, sir, instead of anecdotes? Just how many prison guards are getting over $200K per year exactly? How much of California's budget does that make exactly?

If you don't like prison guard compensation over, say $100K, then why not tax it away along with taxes on everybody else who makes $100K per year?

Why only prison guards, or other state workers? If they don't deserve their pay, why do other people who make the same amount deserve better treatment than prison guards?

You completely ignored the simplest solution to the problem you tout, which is the Eisenhower solution - tax away the high salaries and benefits while giving generous deductions for job creation in the USA.

Come on, NB, get serious about a serious subject.

~Ruff "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 24, 2009 7:48 AM:

" I thought we did not have a progressive income tax until 1913???? "

jersey guy wrote on Apr 24, 2009 9:18 AM:

" "Napablogger" you are one of the few "conservatives" who I can agree with sometimes and respect their opinions even if I don't agree. This time, I agree with you (although I disagree with your stance on health care, but respect your opinion). Most of the others are knee jerk idealogues or false intellectuals. By the way, the same goes for most "liberals" or "socialists" as they are called by the "conservatives". The problem with today's politics on both sides is that nobody is willing to compromise and listen to the other person's viewpoint. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 24, 2009 10:28 AM:

" NB: I don't get your war on public employees. I'm sure there are examples of seemingly unreasonable payouts, but I doubt they are typical. The average employee at the State Hostpital isn't going to take home $100K a year after working 30 years there. I KNOW the average teacher isn't.

I've been looking at CalPERS and CalSTRS. They all work about the same way, you get 2% a year for each year of service. So if I work 30 years, I get 60% of my salary (average of the highest three yrears, I believe). There are various additional benefits for people who work for more than 30 years or past a certain age, but I don't see 100% retirement packages for the average worker. "

glenroy wrote on Apr 24, 2009 10:48 AM:

" You’re on to something NB…though I think the problem is more endemic then many realize.

Back when overnight billionaires were a dime a dozen, leading up to and during the dotcom era, there was a title wave of greed that led to fabulous paper wealth, then ultimately the ruin of hundreds of mid sized companies employing several million.

Unfortunately for most us, many of the egregious offenders ended up in influential political positions for no other obvious reaons or motivation than to protect what in their minds they stole fair and square. ... not without consequences…..

Our company met regularly with the ‘Founders/CEOs’ of companies like Global Crossing, Broadband Now, dozens of new ISP‘s, Arthur Anderson, even the design work for ENRON Broadband, virtually to a person the mantra among these companies was… “The New Business Model” which, itself tells another story. From our perspective as 225 fastest growing company in the United States at that time as their service provider, infrastructure design and network developer the ‘new model’ was little more than smoke, mirrors and ludicrous revenue projections choreographed sell an IPO before it all collapsed.

In the collapse were the companies that played by the rules. In hindsight, it was the ultimate Ponzi Scam, until the same players using the same ’New Model’ created Freddie, Fannie and Wall Street collapse…. It always was a paper hype.

Last point…the ‘manipulators and beneficiaries’ weren’t members of, as Pelosi claims, the Party of Greed, unless she was referring to her won party…. "

Alter ego wrote on Apr 24, 2009 12:34 PM:

" ateacher, public safety employees get a 3% retirement factor.

After 30 years they get 90% of their salary for the rest of their lives.

They also have some way where they add their overtime and other benefits onto their highest pay to bump up the retirement even higher. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 24, 2009 4:55 PM:

" Alter ego: Only fire fighters and Peace officers get that. The rest get 2%. Check out the rates at:

"http://www.calstate.edu/benefits/retirement/cr.page.shtml"

Personally, I don't begrudge the firefighters their money or early retirement. The grueling physical nature of their jobs takes a toll on their bodies. They have a significantly shorter life span. I suspect the same may be true of peace officers. "

Not so common sense wrote on Apr 24, 2009 7:43 PM:

" @ a teacher... you are right and thanks for your support of firefighters. Don't be surprised however at the attacks of NB (Michael Haley) against government employees - he gets in his blows every few months or so. It's true that Firefighters retire CAN be 3% at 50 but most never retire that early. Here's my two cents... one of the differences is that most of our health problems and our shorter life span (as firefighters we live 7-10 years less than the average citizen) comes from exposures directly related to our job. Many times a day I am exposed to very sick people, hazardous materials and situations and demand things of my body in extremely stressful situations that nobody in the private sector has to do (OK maybe you stunt doubles out there). That is why we negotiate for good health benefits, salary and care... because, while we love to be there serving you every day, it takes a real toll on our health and longevity. It's sad to see others call me greedy as a public employee. I know most of the police and fire here in the city and most in the county as well. They are the finest and most honorable people I know. Selfless? Yes! Giving? Yes! But greedy??? Not in the least bit. "

glenroy wrote on Apr 25, 2009 7:32 AM:

" LOL…teach…we have several family members who are FF, brother in-laws, nephews along with former teammates, close friends they have it MADE and 3% retirement is ridiculous absolutely ridiculous.

By retirement age carpenters, plumbers, roofers and laborers, old coaches are worn out….99.5% of firefighters look like they did when they were hired….they spend 90% of pay time working out, grocery shopping, cooking, watching TV, playing cards-board games and sleeping. How many days? 8 or 9? PER MONTH TOTAL for FULL SCALE.

I have a whole lot of respect for law enforcement and fire fighters….but comparatively the law enforcement guys are taking it in the shorts. It’s time FF start doing shifts just like law enforcement….that would save a bundle. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 25, 2009 9:32 AM:

" Glenroy: There are 30,000 firefighters in California. Whether you think they are overpaid or not, I doubt they are the reason California is in money trouble.

I'm sure the local firefighters appreciate your opinion on how easy their job is and how over paid they are. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 25, 2009 10:37 AM:

" Here is an interesting piece from the Seattle PI:

"Cancer is a presumptive disease in firefighters -- more than a third of Seattle firefighters hired before 1977 have developed some form of the illness. Under Washington law, seven forms of cancer are assumed to be job related when they are diagnosed in a firefighter."

"Of 975 firefighters hired in Seattle before 1977, about 350 have been diagnosed with cancer, and 43 of the men were younger than 60 when diagnosed, according to numbers from the Seattle Firefighters Pension Board."

The toxic fumes released when modern materials burn present a significant cancer risk to firefighters. It's not just at the fire, after wards it takes days for the residue of a fire to dissipate from clothing and equipment. According to the PI, of the 5 active Washington firefighters who died in 2008, 3 died from cancer and 2 from fires (ironically fighting fires in Cal.).

Yeah, Glenroy, firefighters have it made. "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 25, 2009 12:13 PM:

" When fire season comes along and forests and homes are burning down who are the guys working to the point beyond exhaustion? Who are the guys who drive to other counties to help and put in countless hours without rest?
While "on shift" they are on 24 hour notice. They risk their lives, save lives, and are minutes away when you need them.
Carpenters, plumbers, roofers, laborers, and old coaches don't risk their lives, save lives, or perform heroic tasks.
Everyone makes choices in life. If you think this is so great....be a firefighter...
Be a hero.
They deserve our thanks and have earned their pension. Go earn yours. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 25, 2009 10:31 PM:

" Ruff, I have repeatedly stated what I thought should be cut to the point that I don't mention it here out of fear of being repititive. You seem to have picked up on the prison gaurd salary issue somehow and that is one thing.

You can look back through my last 3-4 articles and my answer to jersey guy on the prop 1A thread, but according to a study by the Sac Bee that I quoted in my first article on the state budget 80% of the state employees have gotten raises far above private industry wages for the last eight years. The other 20% have gotten less and went three years without even getting a raise recently.

So you have to look past the general statements somewhat, although 80% is a big majority. There are three main groups that are the biggest beneficiaries of this, professional engineers, CHP, and prison gaurds unions. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 25, 2009 10:43 PM:

" thank you jersey guy, I think actually if idealogues did not control the debate so much we wouldn't really have to compromise. we would reach agreements based on facts. Far better. It wouldn't mean that people's opinions wouldn't defer, but it would mean on a lot of issues that there would be a recognition that there is some truth to both sides.

Like taxes, some taxes we need and have minimal effect on the economy, but at some point when you raise them they do have a dragging effect.

I am active in local politics and talk to people involved locally frequently, and I find that generally people behind the scenes are a lot more moderate than the public debate.

I can think of a good point from today, all five supervisors told the buyers of Napa Pipe that they wanted housing as part of that project. Why? Because they know that is what Napa needs.

As soon as it came out to the public, the ideologues on the left who oppose any growth whatsoever, and the far right here (which kind of surprised me) went a*s over teakettle against it.

So now the Sups are waffling around. But they knew from the beginning what Napa needed, and it was not based on ideology, it was based on real need. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 25, 2009 10:52 PM:

" alucawanza and all: The fire union head guy said to me at a city council meeting that the reason they make so much money is that " we die for you". He was pretty mad at me.

My response to that is what is the price of being willing to save someone's life? Is it worth a million dollars, ten million, what? In fact it is priceless, there is no possible number you can put on that. Therefore, we have to have a budget like everything else.

There has to be a reasonable limit somewhere. And in my opinion Napa City fire has gone over that limit, and the pensions for all safety are too high. I am fine personally with what the police make, which is considerably less than the fire dept.

People in the unions want to slam me with being somehow "against" public unions which is not true. They want to discount what I am saying and make people think I am just blindly against them for some reason I know not what, but it is just an attempt to personally discredit me because they don't like what I am saying.

My wife and I own about 100 acres of vineyard, all planted out and on contract, we sell all our grapes every year. So we are wealthy, right? Well, if we were both first year firefighters in the city of Napa we would make more then we do here. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 25, 2009 11:06 PM:

" teacher, once again I am not talking about teachers, I am talking about state and sometimes local government employees. Teachers work for school districts, as you know, which is not the state.

And the teachers get the shaft on their pensions, all other state workers and most local gov workers besides safety get 2.5% to 2.7% for each year worked. There are varying formulas of how much of the annual cost of their pensions they pay themselves, but it is generally around a third of the payment.
And as I have repeatedly said before I have no problem with teacher pay.

City of Napa non safety get 2.7%, County of Napa 2.5%.

Also, I am not attacking anyone. I am addressing budget issues, and if I were CHP I would glady take the salary and don't blame them for negotiating the best deal they can for themselves.

The problem comes from our whole political process which is flawed. Voters have to wake up and demand changes, and I am trying to give you my opinion about what changes I think would be desireable. That's all.

I don't hate government employees because I think some of them make too much money any more than I hate private company employees because I think Wall Streeters make too much money.

These are all sweeping generalizations against me and erroneous judgements that are not intended to illuminate the discussion but rather to discredit me on an emotional level to people.

It would be more helpful to stick to the issues rather than guesses about me personally and what I feel or don't feel. "

glenroy wrote on Apr 26, 2009 9:17 AM:

" Of course not teach….you of all should know the sum of parts equals the whole….call it the band of liberalism.

It should be an intellectual challenge to correct what is obviously wrong with public employee wages and benefits….instead it’s a 2nd grade urinating contest. "

kevin wrote on Apr 26, 2009 9:24 AM:

" It has nothing to do if FF "deserve" 3% or not.

We taxpayers can't afford it!

By "setting the bar" at 3% , the other public unions are always negotiating to get closer to that level. My union does, as does our Supervisors union (is that an oxymoron or what?).

Given that the union works tirelessly to get union friendly Directors elected to the governing Board, it is no wonder our contracts are so favorable.

That's not greed, that's incest.... "

a teacher wrote on Apr 26, 2009 9:32 AM:

" NB: I wasn't talking about teachers. The figures I mentioned were for CalPERS. That's what you get if you work at the State Hostpital. That's what you get if you are a CHP officer. If you are in CalPers, that is what you get. It is dictated by law.

My retirement is CalSTRS, which is very similar to what the average CalPERS worker gets, and you're right, it's not so great.

I am not attacking you on sweeping generalizations, but on the facts. The numbers you quote are different from the numbers I can get looking at the CalPERS website and talking to people I know in CalPERS.

You represent retirement benefits as a huge amount, but they are not. CalPERS reports that the average monthly benefit for the average State employee is around $1700 a month and $3200 a month for CHP officers. That is not a lot of money to live on.

The comment "we die for you". while melodramatic, is true. They work in a hazardous environment that that takes a toll on their overall health and long term survival prospects. Statistically speaking, you may pay a higher retirement for Fire fighters, but you won't be paying it as long.

The chance that I may be shot when I stop a student running down the hallway is zero. Not true for a CHP officer. I don't (nor, I wager do you) strap "a piece" on every morning before I go to work. The stress of wondering if you are coming home from work everyday for 39 years is certainly worth an extra 1% as far as I'm concerned. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 26, 2009 10:04 AM:

" In addition, before you complain about being attacked, observe the title of your column:"Greed Watch". You imply a lot with that title. You want to claim this is not personal, but when you imply that people are being paid more than they are worth, some of us are going to beg to differ.

I find it irritating that you are making a huge deal about a budget item that is relatively small. The State pays out around $14 billion annually in their contribution to employee retirement. That's around 10% of the budget. Significant, but not huge. It's the price of having quality people doing the State's business. It's not even a great deal for the majority those who are receiving those benefits.

The whole argument about the budget and taxes boils down to this:

How much is good government worth to you?

People on your side tend to state that government is ALWAYS inefficient, slow, wrong. It never does it right. The free market is ALWAYS more efficient, cheaper, faster, better. I reject that premise. I see no evidence of it and in fact I see evidence to the contrary. "

not so common sense wrote on Apr 26, 2009 4:50 PM:

" NB (Michael Haley),
You are funny. I'll trade my "over the top, greedy, outlandish" firefighter salary for your 100 acres of vineyards any day! We all feel so sorry for your situation now...

The truth is that my "outrageous" salary barely covers the mortgage on my small fixer-upper here in Napa. No boats, no trailers... just a small, average house and living month to month just like most others. Yet you own 100 acres in the Napa Valley??? I'll leave the greed comments alone.... Just let me know when you are ready for that trade! "

post-it wrote on Apr 27, 2009 1:46 PM:

" What about the greed of corporate America? While it is true public employees are paid well, the disparity from the highest to the lowest wage is not nearly as great as in the private sector. How would the bottom line of a corporation change if the payroll dollars were the same but distributed more fairly? how does an annual paycheck that is greater than most lottery winnings benefit the corporation? If the shareholders are truly concerned about profits, why do they let executive pay increases eat at their profits?

The previous administration along with this one seem to think that $600 a year per employee is a good economic stimulus. Well, if every large corporation could diverted $1,000,000 from executive compensation, they could fund a $600 stimulus for over 1600 employees. Surely that would be more efficient than taking the $1,000,000 in taxes and having the government distribute it.

What happened to compassionate conservatism? "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Apr 27, 2009 4:16 PM:

" "Compassionate Conservatism" is just another 'sales slogan'.

Corporatists have a single goal and that is to externalize costs. For them to be successful, "We, the People..." have to pick up those costs whether it be lower wages, bailout money when the corporatist gamblers lose their bets, higher risks from pollution they don't want to clean up, or anything else you care to name.

This time it's teachers and safety employees... but it's not like the corporate apologists are going to EVER ask that their taxes be raised.

If you give into them on one thing you can count on a dozen more tomorrow.

~Ruff "

jackdoitcrawford wrote on Apr 28, 2009 8:23 AM:

" People unfortunately write sloppily. Capital doesn't go where it is needed, but where the owner thinks it will profit him most.

The public not only don't know the difference between Fascism and Socialism, they also don't understand what Capitalism is. That is why, "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand is such an important book. What we have is a very MIXED economic system with a multitude of controls and a few remnants of freedom left over from the rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that were proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence. "

Bill wrote on Apr 28, 2009 10:56 AM:

" Sweeping generalizations?

Not to be seen as attacking any body but these columns and blogs are filled with them NB, and yours initial writing and responses are filled with them.

Comparing the greed of wall street to public employees pensions or auto workers is a favorite motif of yours designed to provoke not explain any dire need.

It's merely a repetitive uninformed rant. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Apr 28, 2009 11:07 AM:

" Ayn Rand was not a member of our nations founders. I find that the founders were not 'early Randians' no matter how fervently that idea may be expressed.

One of the first things that George Washington did was put down the 'Whiskey Tax' rebellion.

There's always a balance to be struck between individual freedom and group membership.

The Bushite-Republicans had an eight year run and their bungling gave Obama the presidency.

Fact is the 'conservatives' won't be trusted with power for a while.

And the Republicans are definitely going to have to reform themselves before that will happen.

Our country is a melting pot and running down some of the 'main ingredients' of that multi-cultural stew isn't going to do Republicans any good.

The Under-30 crowd are pretty much done with coded appeals to those who distain other Americans' contributions to OUR country.

~Ruff "

a teacher wrote on Apr 28, 2009 11:10 AM:

" "multitude of controls and a few remnants of freedom left over from the rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that were proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence."

This is a place you guys lose me. Exactly what rights and freedoms are being infringed upon? In my soon to be 53 years, I can't think of anything I've been prevented from doing that I really wanted to do. I've traveled the world and the country, I've taken a career path I've choosen. I can pretty much say what i want without the secret police knocking on my door.

The only thing ever stopping me is lack of means. That's just economic reality. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 28, 2009 5:40 PM:

" teacher: re: rights, an exerpt from Ayn Rand's "Capitalism":

"A 'right' is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man's freedom of action in a social context. There is only one fundamental right (all others are its consequences or corollaries): a man's right to his own life....

... for every individual, a right is a moral sanction of a positive - of his freedom to act on his own judgment, for his own goals, by his own voluntary, oncoerced choice. As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligation on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights.

The right to life is the source of all rights - and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave....

...The Declaration of Independence laid down the principle that "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men...

...Thus the government's function was changed from the role of ruler to the role of servant. The government was set to protect man from criminals - and the Constitution was written to protect man from the government"

Teacher, today's government is confiscating private ownership (banks, automobile companies- healthcare and energy are next) and attempting to control the lives and freedoms of its citizens. This violates the core principles of our founders. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 28, 2009 10:00 PM:

" Mr4, the government has confiscated nothing. They have bought some companies that were about to fail and take the economy with them.

From your response I take it that you can't name a right that has been denied to you. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 29, 2009 12:55 AM:

" teacher, you are right that I am being somewhat contradictory by calling the article greed and then making the statement that I don't blame an individual CHP officer.

I do think the CHP union is greedy and there is a whole structure set up by those at the top in the union structure that is greedy.

But I don't want to make sweeping generalizations myself, and I don't think that any individual officer or anyone is necessarily buying into that or like that. But their whole system and approach is marked by greed and there is really something wrong with it and it has to change.

I was struck by that this morning watching the mostly Latino home health aides with their SEIU rep lambast, and I mean really lambast and attempt to shame the Supervisors like no one I have ever seen, over their pay cut. I think it is outrageous, but as I pointed out to them, it is not the county it is the state that made the cuts, and it is their own union system that operates this way.

The employee unions are protecting employees at the top that make lots more money and instead are shifting all the cuts down to those at the bottom that can least afford it like home health care workers.

Some of them booed me, and one woman pulled her little boy away from sitting to close to me in horror, but to my surprise a number of the very leftish members of the audience came up to me and told me they thought I was exactly right.

It is sickening what is going on, and I am sorry but there is greed up and down our society. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 8:52 AM:

" Yanked their kid away from you, probably afraid you'd eat them or something. That's a little over the top and you don't deserve it.

I'll grant that you have a point, but i wouldn't exactly call it "greed". It's more an attitude that we Americans have thayou should get everything you can and too bad for the rest.

Way back a few years ago I was teaching in rural Georgia. At the time Alex Rodriguez signed on with the Astros for $250 million for a five year contract. We were shocked by that amount and I figured that $250 million dollars was worth 250 lifetime teacher salaries (we were averaging $40K a year nationally - Georgia was a bit less). It became my standard for describing extravagence. How many lifetime teacher salaries were being dropped on Serbia? How many lifetime teacher salaries did Schwartzenegger get paid to make Terminator 2?

My point is that if society is willing to tolerate paying someone what would take a teacher 1500 years to earn, for the job of being a very good short stop, why shouldn't a CHP officer think that their job is worth some more money? Why shouldn't a firefighter wonder. as they pull someone out of a burning building, why their job is less important than Matt Damons?

I here the refrain "we pay them enough" batted around a lot around here. Well, what is enough? It never seems to be enough when it comes to CEOs and other business leaders. I think you should point your finger else where. "

steph wrote on Apr 29, 2009 8:53 AM:

" With whose money did "they" in the government buy failing banks and automobile companies?

Whose money was devalued and confiscated to purchase these failing liabilities? "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 9:42 AM:

" Teacher: I will be more clear: The shareholders in Citibank, Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo, and other financial institutions have had their equity confiscated by the actions of the federal government. They have lost between 90 - 99% of their equity. Trillions of dollars of equity. This is not because of bad mortgage loans, it is the direct result of the de facto government takeover of management.

Automobile company shareholders have a slightly different issue. General Motors and Chrysler were in genuine trouble - largely due to their exorbitant labor costs. But regardless of their financial status, the shareholders were effectively robbed of control (of their property) by the duplicitous actions of the federal government and United Auto Workers. When the feds unilaterally fired GM's CEO and are now calling for wholesale changes in the Board of Directors without shareholder approval, it was a confiscation of property. And the Chrysler deal, which will give the United Auto Workers 55% equity and leave the former shareholders with only 1% equity, is a deal made under the ultimate in duress.

Healthcare is next. Virtually every healthcare stock in existence is currently plummeting in value in anticipation of government's next steps. Every Hospital group in the West (Sutter Health, Catholic Healthcare West, Kaiser, Adventist Health, St Josephs, etc.) is in virtual shutdown mode - full capital freeze, layoff planning, etc - all due to the expected confiscatory moves by the federal government.

Property Rights - that is what is being violated. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 10:34 AM:

" "We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others, the same word may mean for some to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name - liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatible names - liberty and tyranny"

Abraham Lincoln, 1864 (courtesy Mark R. Levin) "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 11:52 AM:

" "Whose money was devalued and confiscated to purchase these failing liabilities? "

Um...no ones. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 11:58 AM:

" Bank share holders haven't lost equity becuase of anything the Obama Administration did, but by the actions of the banks themselves and the deals they made on their share holder's behalf. If those banks fail, shareholders get nothing.

Once AGAIN Mr4, the Obama administration can not fire the CEO of any business. The made his departure a condition of their help, which is fair. It's real simple, the auto industry does not have to take the money. They can soldier on by themselves. The fall of big auto is due to many factors. Blame the unions all you want, but that doesn't make it all their fault.

So. You really can't name a freedom or right that has been taken away from you.

That's what I thought. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 12:43 PM:

" Ad Nauseum, teacher,

You will apologize for anything that Obama does. Given that, why bother with further explanation? "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 1:48 PM:

" I apologize for nothing. Obama does what Obama does. He won the job, he gets to do it. I like some of what he has done and there are some things I don't like.

I object to characterizing his actions as something they clearly are not.

Anyway, Obama has nothing at all to do with my comment on the rights you (and others who claimed this) feel you are being deprived of. I called you on it. Answer up or admit you can't. Don't blame your lack of an answer on Obama. That is lame. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 1:52 PM:

" Don't blame me for your failure to understand my clear answer. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 2:33 PM:

" If you want specific law, try the 10th Amendment of the Constitution:

"Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Tell me where in the Constitution the Federal Government is authorized to take over and OWN private enterprise? "

napablogger wrote on Apr 29, 2009 3:34 PM:

" >>>Why shouldn't a firefighter wonder. as they pull someone out of a burning building, why their job is less important than Matt Damons? <<

The standard you are suggesting, how important their job is, won't work as a standard to set pay scales. We have to find some other way.

Deserving won't work either--I mean, we all deserve to be millionaires, don't we?

What is enough, you ask? That is one of the main points I am trying to get to, and what I am saying is that we as a society have substituted entitlement, greed, whatever you want to call it, you describe it as I am going to get as much as I can for myself and to heck with everyone else. Good enough.

What I am trying to get people to think about is that it is not really the responsibility of the employees themselves as it is the society as a whole.

We need standards, we need agreed upon values and ways of determining what is fair. Right now it is survival of the fittest. It doesn't work in a civilized society. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 4:21 PM:

" Mr4, I would put this in caps, but then Dan the man would probably pull it. So, I'll say it gently:

Can you name a specific right, liberty or freedom that you (specifically) have been denied?

You keep on citing abstract rights about how the government is intervening in business, that have nothing at all to do with my question. I suspect that the answer is you can not name a specific right, liberty or freedom that you (specifically) have been denied. Rather, you are blowing smoke to cover up you lack of an answer. Insulting me will do you good. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 5:40 PM:

" I think you're looking at the wrong people. No one becomes a civil servant to get wealthy (at least in the USA). The wages and salaries you are complaining about are not extravagant. The $3200 a month pension that a CHP officer takes home amounts to $38k a year, not exactly living the high life.

I don't think that Americans are greedy about what they want. I think they want security. I just want to be able to live comfortably when they are too old to work. They want decent houses. They want their kids to go to college. They want to know that being ill won't make them paupers.

What do I think is fair and reasonable? I'll apply the golden rule:do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What would YOU consider acceptable and why doesn't everyone deserve that? "

steph wrote on Apr 29, 2009 8:32 PM:

" "They" can't buy anything without taxing/confiscating money or printing more thereby devaluing what's in circulation.
Honestly, now. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 8:42 PM:

" Teacher,

The clear language of the United States Constitution is an "abstract right"? Are you kidding me?

Personally, as a holder of certain mutual funds, I have had a good portion of my life savings taken away from me. Without due process, without reasonable compensation, without anything. I am fairly certain that the same has happened to you - you simply don't realize it.

I am not on some sort of government pension plan. I take my income and put it away in whatever vehicle the government allows me (e.g SEP-IRA, 401(k) etc.). These savings have largely been put into stocks - stocks of financial institutions, manufacturers, healthcare companies, etc.. To put it bluntly, this money has been stolen. Stolen by power-hungry politicians that make up the current administration. Am I bitter? You are darn right I am! "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 9:40 PM:

" Mr4, you have not, apparently, been paying attention. Your money was stolen long before Mr. Obama took office. And it was business, not politicians that took it. Business took your money to the track, bet on long shots, and came up empty handed.

I'm sure you'll construct some elaborate theory of how it all connects to Obama. Someone else may find that amusing, I'm finding boring. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 29, 2009 9:44 PM:

" Hey Steph, we could always just let things fail. THAT WILL BE FUN!

To quote Alfred to Batman:

"Some people just want to watch the world burn" "

Bill wrote on Apr 29, 2009 10:09 PM:

" abstract: as in theoretical. What theoretical righthas been violated?

The right to risk your money?

And steph, who are "they'? "

Raven wrote on Apr 30, 2009 9:00 AM:

" Mr4...I have had a good portion of my life savings taken away from me. Without due process, without reasonable compensation, without anything. I am fairly certain that the same has happened to you - you simply don't realize it....this money has been stolen. Stolen by power-hungry politicians that make up the current administration."

You want to show us exactly how the govt did that...instead of the businesses you and your mutual fund invested in? Esp in light that more of the loss in the market occurred before Jan 20, not after, dropping from 14,164 on October 9, 2007 in 2007 to 7949 on Jan 20....current Dow...8255 at the time I wrote this, so the current administration is actually helping you regain some of what you lost (btw, did you miss the part of the statements for your accounts where it says you could lose money with your investments) "

steph wrote on Apr 30, 2009 9:08 AM:

" Bill--
"They" are those to whom teacher refers, presumably, government officials who spend "our" tax money (unwisely.)

And, teacher, GM's bankruptcy, for those who will be left holding the bag, including creditors and the US taxpayers, is a failure. Why did we throw good money after bad? "

a teacher wrote on Apr 30, 2009 10:32 AM:

" "And, teacher, GM's bankruptcy, for those who will be left holding the bag, including creditors and the US taxpayers, is a failure. Why did we throw good money after bad? "

The success or failure of ANY of the Obama administratio's policies remains to be seen. I am not convinced that giving any one taxpayer money was or continues to be a good idea, but I see little alternative other than letting everything fall apart. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 30, 2009 7:47 PM:

" Teacher,

You never responded to my earlier inquiry:

"Tell me where in the Constitution the Federal Government is authorized to take over and OWN private enterprise? " "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 30, 2009 8:12 PM:

" Raven,

It is hard to respond without getting edited.

The numbers that show the damage best are financial institutions. Take for example CitiGroup. The precipitous fall began in November (gee, what happened then?) and was based on the rhetoric coming from the newly elected. They said what they intended to do - hence ruining the stock.

Just like the healthcare companies are dropping like a stone as we speak.

You wrote, "You want to show us exactly how the govt did that..."

Sure. Stock price is the market's estimation of the future profit potential of a company. When the government (or even likely or incoming government) starts indicating that profits will no longer be tolerated, investors exit and the stock is de-valued. The real drop in the Dow can be correlated nicely with McCain winning the Republican nomination. When he won it was obvious that we would either have a milktoast moderate semi-socialist or Obama as president. That is all the market needed to start the decline. As it became more clear that Obama would win, the decline accelerated. And now that he is in, the only thing holding price from full collapse is the near-certainty of hyper-inflation.

Teacher wrote: "I'm sure you'll construct some elaborate theory of how it all connects to Obama." Said it would be boring.

Yep. I understand. I fall asleep when I read something I can't follow as well. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 30, 2009 10:32 PM:

" teacher I don't know where you are getting that number, but that is way off. It probably includes officers who retired 25 years ago before they got the big benefits. There are all kinds of safety personnel in this state who are making 100K + pensions.

The real problem is the future pensions we are funding Cal Pers for now, because the benefits have gone up so much in the last eight years.

Entry level firefighters in Napa are making 80K ish when you count all the bumps they get above base. When you count all the OT they are above 100K most of the time. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 30, 2009 11:17 PM:

" " Teacher,

You never responded to my earlier inquiry:

"Tell me where in the Constitution the Federal Government is authorized to take over and OWN private enterprise? " "

In my classroom, students who are ducking the lesson by asking irrelevant questions usually don't get a response. They get redirected.

You have no answers, so you'll confuse the issue with a vague question about the constitution. WHO CARES?

Stop claiming the government is taking away your rights, liberties, freedoms unless you can provide a concrete example. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 30, 2009 11:32 PM:

" NB: I got my numbers from CalSTRS. Their numbers jive with their formula and the average salaries of firefighters and police officers (I got those from salary.com).

I don't know where you get YOUR numbers from, but in a survey of 26 cities, NO ONE made $80k. In fact the average was between $35k and $55k, the median salary for firefighters in the USA is $40k.

Police Officers seem to make between $40k and $60k. The only place where I could find $80k was San Francisco and that was the upper end of the salary scale. "

Mr4 wrote on May 1, 2009 7:30 AM:

" "WHO CARES?"

Who cares whether the government is clearly ignoring the limits set on it by the Constitution?

Anyone who believes in freedom. "

a teacher wrote on May 1, 2009 8:04 AM:

" "Yep. I understand. I fall asleep when I read something I can't follow as well. "

Typical, If you don't agree you must not comprehend.

OR...

It makes no sense. "

Raven wrote on May 1, 2009 9:33 AM:

" hyperinflation?....here are the figures for the first two months of this year..

Feb 0.2

Mar -0.4

And again....since the market is showing a slow but steady increase since Obama started that should please you...

As far as Citigroup - their fall started when their rather precarious financial situation came to light ... not because the govt did or didn't do anything ... and its biggest drop took place between the end of August and the beginning of end of October....not November ... or so says Motley Fool ... and it is starting to climb back up,....at 3.01 at the time I write this...up from it lowest point of .97. "

Mr4 wrote on May 1, 2009 12:43 PM:

" Raven.

Yes. Hyperinflation. Direct correlation to the money supply - Economics 101. But it takes awhile - the trillions in Monopoly money that have been allocated have not yet hit the market.

Perfectly explains the Feb and March numbers as well as Citigroup stock price. Well, maybe not for teacher. "

Raven wrote on May 1, 2009 6:15 PM:

" well some have since the state broke ground on the first of the stimulus money projects yesterday and millions of unemployed have seen a lil boost in their checks.

the fed seems to disagree with you as well since the left the interest unchanged. "

a teacher wrote on May 1, 2009 10:48 PM:

" Yawn. Is that all you got Mr4, sniping? I guess that's what you have to do when you can't win on the facts. "

Mr4 wrote on May 2, 2009 9:45 AM:

" Teacher,

Snippets of cherry-picked, out-of-context statistics hardly constitute fundamental truths upon which one should make qualitative judgments on the direction of our society. Such narrow perspective on reality is exactly the state of mind which enables seemingly meaningless incremental change to turn into tyranny.

Mr Haley's article is about greed - his ramblings focusing on Wall Streeters and Unions. My point is that the greed for power - political greed - well intentioned though it may be, has a far wider and more devastating impact on our lives then any business or union could ever dream of. "

Raven wrote on May 2, 2009 2:33 PM:

" How fundamental can they be when you can't even get economists to agree on them. "

a teacher wrote on May 3, 2009 9:11 AM:

" I haven't cherry picked any statistics, I bet you can't name one (just like you can't name a right you've lost).

As for:
"Mr Haley's article is about greed - his ramblings focusing on Wall Streeters and Unions. My point is that the greed for power - political greed - well intentioned though it may be, has a far wider and more devastating impact on our lives then any business or union could ever dream of. "

Perhaps you should start a thread to this topic.

I'll say this for Mr. Haley is that although we frequently disagree, I know I'm dealing with a gentleman. He NEVER stoops to insults. He makes a point and sticks to it, defending it with facts and logic. If he can't defend a point he either concedes it or comes back later with more information. Barring that he agrees to disagree.

That's how adults should argue. "

napablogger wrote on May 4, 2009 12:31 AM:

" teacher, I got my numbers for Napa directly from the W2's of the 2007 payroll. Average pay for firefighters was around 134K--and they got an 11% increase in 2008. You can get any Napa county job on line at their web site. I got Vallejo's pay list, with names and amounts for 2006. Over half the firefighters made over 150K that year and some made over 200K.

The starting salary for Napa City firefighters was in a register article at the time of union negotiations, then it was 74K but it has gone up, that was two years ago. Plus they get all kinds of bumps for various things like equipment they have learned, an AA degree, etc, etc.

Both police and Sheriff's in Napa make way more than 80K a year, I have gotten that info directly from the sources locally. I have no problem with base pay for either of those, btw. Pensions, yes. "

napablogger wrote on May 4, 2009 10:42 AM:

" thanks teacher--I wrote a comment last night in response to yours about salaries but it appears to have disappeared into the ethers.

The information I have I got directly from the city and county on local salaries, all the county salaries are on line and can be looked up. I also have Vallejo firefigthers and Sonoma too. No one working full time as a safety person for any local government is making less than 80K, in the city of Napa the average for firefighters looked to be about 134K a year. Entry base was 76K two years ago. Etc.

Don't know what to say about salary.com, I think it is wrong, at least for major urban areas in California.

You have to get their W2's, which I have done, because there is a major disconnect between what they say publicly and what they actually get.

Kind of like the banks suddenly making a profit the first quarter when they are hundreds of billions in debt. "

a teacher wrote on May 4, 2009 8:19 PM:

" Well, NB, I don't know what to say. The average salaries I get for places like Salary.Com are pretty consistent in saying $45K for base salaries. Perhaps the key phrase is average or base, I don't know.

However, I DO see your point about salaries. I found a few other sources that agree with you. I guess overtime IS very lucrative.

I don't agree with you about the pensions, as I explained, it's a question of the health effects of 30 years of fire fighting. "

a teacher wrote on May 4, 2009 8:35 PM:

" Another thing. I did notice a theme in the articles I read. It appears that recruiting and keeping fire fighters is difficult. Ventura, for instance, complained that they hire and train people only to see them "poached" by other cities. Ventura also requires all it's new hires to be licensed EMTs. Supply and demand... "

napablogger wrote on May 5, 2009 4:07 PM:

" teacher, firefighters claim that their health is hurt by their jobs. I doubt that. According to them, 90% of the calls in Napa are medical. There were 35 structure fires in Napa last year and most of them were out by the time they got there. They are in far better shape than the average population.

Oakland had twenty firefighter positions open last year and they got 6000 applicants. In Texas they had to line people up at a stadium there were so many applicants for six firefigher positions.

Firefighter is the number one sought after public service position. If we wanted to we could have all volunteer fire depts so many people (good people) are willing to do it for free. I don't think we should do that, but it is insane that we pay them more than police, for instance. "

a teacher wrote on May 5, 2009 8:43 PM:

" From an MSNBC report on a Harvard Medical School study:

"Looking at firefighter heart attack deaths nationwide over a decade, the researchers found that the risk of heart attack is highest when firefighters are working at a fire scene — with increased odds ranging from 10 to 100 times the normal risk of heart attack. Although firefighters spend only 1 to 5 percent of their time putting out fires, 32 percent of firefighter deaths from heart attacks occur at fire scenes, the study found."

Also;

"Heart attacks fell more firefighters
About 100 firefighters die on the job each year, and heart attacks cause about 45 percent of these deaths, a much higher percentage than for other public safety occupations — 22 percent of the on-the-job deaths among police officers, and 11 percent for emergency medical workers. Overall, heart attacks account for 15 percent of all deaths that occur on the job."

I've been reading that fire fighters can expect to live 5 to 10 years less than the average person. It seems to me that fact justifies a higher pension. "

post-it wrote on May 6, 2009 1:43 PM:

" Hmm, If a firefighter gets a heart attack in the firehouse after a bout of 3-alarm chili is that considered "on the job"? "

Bill wrote on May 7, 2009 8:07 AM:

" I know I am late here but how do you get acess to other peoples W2s?

I that legal? "

kevin wrote on May 9, 2009 9:06 AM:

" Bill, If you are a civil service employee that is public information.

Some juridictions tried to issue it with the names blanked out, but the courts recently decided that they could not do that. "

anticommie wrote on May 14, 2009 10:06 PM:

" Ruff said:
"The Under-30 crowd are pretty much done with coded appeals to those who distain other Americans' contributions to OUR country."

I think the majority of the under-30 crowd may be in a liberal infused coma these days. The younger generations of this country have been fed liberal ideals from the moment they entered the public school system. Each generation gets fed more and more "liberalism" in schools. Try being a young conservative on a school campus these days. The left is not too tolerant. Unfortunetly, something appeals to the younger crowd: Let someone else do the work for them. From every corner of the Democrat Party and the like we hear the government will pay for this, the government will pay for that. Enough of it already. "

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