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Napa's Tea Party
Friday, April 17, 2009
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By ANGELINA GERVASIO
Not your average kid
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No wonder liberals hold so many protests... They are FUN!!!

Yup, we went to the Tea Party April 15 in downtown Napa in front of Congressman Mike Thompson's office on Main and Pearl (I wonder if his staff took a day off because I didn't see anybody in there or maybe they had already gone home for the day). My mom and I arrived around 6 p.m.,We parked in the former Mervyn's parking lot and as we walked over, people welcomed us and thanked us for joining them in a cause that affect us all. Yes, all. I'm 13, I don't even pay taxes yet, so why should I bother? Even if I don't pay taxes, my parents do, my grandparents do eventually I will have to!!!
With a flag in one hand, and a poster in the other we soon joined the enthusiastic crowd. I didn't count them all, but I would guess there were at least 200 people at that point. Remember, this demonstration started at 8 a.m., people came and went all day long and according to some of them the crowd stayed just about that size sometimes thicker sometimes thinner.

Many cars drove by, quite a few with their passengers waving American flags, most of them honking all the way from First to Pearl or vice-versa, there were even three fire engines, two police cars and a (very loud) tow truck.
Some drivers looked completely and entirely clueless. Perhaps they didn't know whether or not they wanted to keep their hard earned money or be forced to throw the money away to bankrupt programs like Social Security? It didn't seem like a very hard decision to make to me.

A few of the drivers were giving us thumbs up in support of what some of the signs and posters read:
- I am Joe, don't tax me bro!

- Is this the change you voted for?

- Congress represents me, I must be corrupt!

- I'll pay for my house you pay for yours!

- Hey Obama, my GM truck needs an oil change!

- Looked like a bow to me...!

- Honk 4 Freedom!

- You work for us. We say: Stop the insanity. No more spending!

- Otrauma!

- You can't borrow your way out of debt!

- Got a Birth Certificate?

- Born free, taxed to death!

- Overtaxed already!

- Honk for Capitalism!

- R's sold us out just like the D's!

And my favorite one was the poster outlining two people standing up, one holding a bag of money in his right hand, and the other man pointing a gun to the first man's head with his right hand and his left hand asking for the bag of money, and underneath both in capital letters read SOCIALISM.

It never fails, at least five different people in their cars flipped us off (so much for "peaceful" and "tolerant" Obama supporters), even though giving somebody the "middle finger" could motivate anger and retaliation I didn't see anyone in the crowd "flipping them off" back, instead we all booed them, asked how they could still like him, shook our heads and laughed.

People from all different ages and social and economic backgrounds came out in protest of excessive taxation that is not fixing any of the problems our country is facing right now (and for years and generations to come), grandmas and grandpas, latinos, blacks, asians and caucasians, teenagers in their skateboards. We saw the working trucks with ladders or landscaping equipment, the luxurious Porsches, BMW's and Lexus', the old sedans, the SUV's and even the hybrid ones (Now you know liberals are not the only ones who buy Prius and the like).

A homeless man walked by on the sidewalk pushing that shopping cart full of bags and things, I looked at his exposed clean legs and I thought of the many posibilities, maybe he just came out of a shelter, or perhaps he was an undercover agent (yes, I know, I watch too many movies... but they're funny!).

When's the next Anti-tax protest? I'M GOING!!!

Angelina Gervasio is a seventh-grader at Redwood Middle School in Napa. She writes a blog at NapaValleyRegister.com on a variety of subjects ... when her mom says she is caught up on homework.
231 comment(s)

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 17, 2009 6:05 AM:

" ...what I meant to say was Social Programs like "lifetime" welfare, social services for "everybody", etc., etc. not Social Security, though I believe that when I am able to contribute to it I should be able to receive the benefits from it, someday. "

misfit wrote on Apr 17, 2009 8:38 AM:

" I'm sorry that you are already so cynical at such a young age...that something like this would be fun to you??? Maybe in history class you learned about the first Tea Party and what it really represented.
I also understand your concern about keeping your "Hard earned money", and concern for those receiving and not contributing...
However, do you also realize that tax dollars are what pay for your education, (well...in case you aren't one of the privileged few, in which case, I understand why you think the way you do). Tax dollars pay for ensuring the air you breathe is clean, the water you drink is clean and spared of toxins, the food you eat is safe, the roads and bridges you travel on are available and safe, (Remember the bridge in Minnesota)? How about the police and fire personnel who watch out for you, your home and your home town?
Your grandparents are probably receiving Social Security and Medicare benefits.
How dare you want all that for nothing.
Who then, wants something for nothing? "

misfit wrote on Apr 17, 2009 8:39 AM:

" BTW...Thanks for the "Yeah, oh but" but, we get where you are coming from. Nice try though. "

O/U now wrote on Apr 17, 2009 9:07 AM:

" This "tea party" was more about gov. waste than taxes. I hope everybody got that. With less waste there will be less tax. Some will argue that we need taxes for roads ect. True. But this government is spending us into bankruptcy, and fascism is becoming their answer. "

proudmama2 wrote on Apr 17, 2009 10:02 AM:

" Angelina- Hello. I was there on Tea Party day as well. What impressed me and made an impression on me was the fact that people were "SPEAKING OUT". Last time I checked this right hasn't been taken away. And I say "THANK GOD" for that.

Good article. "

Raven wrote on Apr 17, 2009 10:25 AM:

" angelina .... there is no lifetime welfare, any accepting aid is limited....I think the current limit is a total of three years. "

TrickleDown wrote on Apr 17, 2009 11:35 AM:

" Angelina,

Why was it that someone that "flipped off" the protesters was an Obama supporter? "

JustMy$.02 wrote on Apr 17, 2009 11:55 AM:

" Raven,
There are so many loopholes you are completely wrong. As a matter of fact we are now starting to see second and third generation welfare addicts right here in this county.

When I say welfare, I mean the varietly of government handouts available to those that have never had work or have paid in anything to the general 'pot' of money that the recieve from. "

pharper wrote on Apr 17, 2009 1:15 PM:

" I had to read through this a couple of times before I could believe it.

I'm sorry, Angelina. I'm sorry that at thirteen (my god!) you've learned to be so disparaging about people who hold a different viewpoint than you. I'm sorry you have been taught that it's okay to think people are beneath you simply because they don't agree with you. I'm sorry that you have to resort to blaming things on other people instead of learning to step up to the plate and come together with those of opposing views to solve problems.

Mostly I'm sorry that you didn't get a chance to meet Mike Thompson. When I went to DC for the inauguration, we got a chance to speak with him at his office. I was so impressed by his intelligence and work ethic, and I'm very proud to be attending his alma mater next semester, CSU Chico.

PS: I recommend everyone look up "teabagging" on Urban Dictionary. Every teenager in America had a good laugh at that. "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 17, 2009 1:52 PM:

" Trickledown-

we could tell by Obama emblem on their car!

For a complete history on the Boston Tea Party, not the so-called memories of the posters, do a search for The Boston Tea Party Historical Society.

Great, informative history on a fledgling nation's begining down the road to freedom. Remember, the Tea Party came first and it was followed by the Revolution.

Misfit- again you are using guilt to pressure a youn woman who choose her 1st Amendment Right to voice her views. I think she is well aware of what her tax dollars are used for. Paying off Congress's buddies at Fannie & Freddie, pork barrel projects, paying off ACORN, and pure waste.

Angela was there because it is her future thatis being put into debt and the future of her children

Raven- welfae in CA is 6 months, although the feds may have it extended as part of the state bailout strings. "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 17, 2009 2:44 PM:

" Misfit: Who are you to judge what young people should find fun?

And pharper, it's okay to disagree with Angelina, but for you to dismiss her attending an event as sub-par to your meeting Mike Thompson is a bit narrow minded. Perhaps not all of us older, and perhaps wiser folks don't share your sentiments about the intelligence of our representatives, but we are happy that you took the time to find out what, just like we are happy Angelina took the time to find out what dissent is all about. I am also very sorry that you know the Urban Dictionary meaning of the term you looked up.

Angelina, I commend you for not being the average teenager and actually taking an interest in something that could effect your future. I also commend you for having fun at the same time. Nicely done. "

pharper wrote on Apr 17, 2009 3:04 PM:

" I in no way intended to make it sound as though this event was sub-par to meeting Mike Thompson; I apologize if it comes off that way. I was merely expressing my regret that the people who chose to protest outside Mike Thompson's office did not get the chance to speak with him in person, because I think they would, at least, have been given the chance to see that he is an intelligent man who might even have answers to some of their questions, even if they don't agree with him.

It saddens me to see kids even younger than myself (I'm seventeen) with views and opinions so set in stone that they have already taken to disparaging opposing viewpoints. To me, this piece was written in a manner that offers absolutely no willingness to compromise with the other side, and even ventures to tout dissenting opinions as lesser than Angelina's own.

That may not sadden you, but it does me.

And just for the record, I think every high schooler in the country knows what the term means. It might have been prudent for the organizers to do their research before using it. "

Bill wrote on Apr 17, 2009 3:13 PM:

" I'm Glad you were amused, especially by the homeless man and his clean legs. "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 17, 2009 3:19 PM:

" pharper, It doesn't sadden me because I know that Angelina is not falling in line behind the liberal education system and the very liberal mainstream media. She is actually thinking for herself. What in the world is there to be sad about that?

Just because you don't agree with her doesn't make you right and her wrong. Perhaps if you explored her view point, you would understand that there is nothing to pity about a young lady who goes against the grain.

It was NBC who coined the phrase and CNN fell quickly in line, which saddens me. "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 17, 2009 4:23 PM:

" cab e-girl:
Pharper is right on track. We're reading the musings of a 13 year old writing as if in a diary.
Pharper has explored Angelina's viewpoint, quite in depth, actually.
Here's an example of Angelina's viewpoint: (Now you know liberals are not the only ones who buy Prius and the like).
Angelina's writing is full of stereotypes like the above. But she will mature. We'll give her the benefit of the doubt because she is 13 years old. Perhaps her next writing assignment can be a research paper on the definition of a liberal and a conservative, without judgemental language.
Perhaps she can research the history of George Bush's tenure as president. After all, she was just 5 years old when he became president.
Cab e-girl..don't imply that Pharper doesn't think for herself. She has proven time and again in these posts that she is a thoughtful and mature-thinking young woman. Given time, education, and experience, Angelina may reach that point. Right now she's just sharing her 13 year old thoughts and reactions to events and shows quite clearly her inability to understand the gestalt of a political phenomenom i.e. liberals don't demonstrate to have fun... "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 17, 2009 4:51 PM:

" Alu-You have the option of not reading Angelina's posts if you find them only "the musing's of a 13 year old." I like to read them because I enjoy them. I miss my children being that age, and not! When I read them, I know they are being written by a 13 year old with limited experiences, just like I know that pharper is writing from the view point of a 17 year old with limited life experiences. That doesn't stop me from reading and responding to either of them.

As far as her postings "Now you know liberals are not the only ones who buy Prius and the like" I find nothing wrong with that, she is simply saying that there is common ground between liberals and conservatives. What in the world is wrong with that?

I assume pharper thinks for herself, but she clearly has been raised with liberal values which is fine. However, I find her attitude towards Angelina very elitist and judgmental because Angelina has very different values than does pharper. I find value in both of their postings, because they are both speaking out. Which I find refreshing for young people of both their ages. I hope they both continue doing so. "

kevin wrote on Apr 17, 2009 6:21 PM:

" acluwanza said:

"liberals don't demonstrate to have fun... "

No, they get PAID to do it!

LOL "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 17, 2009 7:41 PM:

" kevin:
Liberals demonstrate because they believe in their cause. Who marched with Martin Luther King Jr.? Think they got payed?
Liberals marched to end the war in Viet Nam. Think they got payed?
Liberals went to the south and marched for desegregation. Think they got payed?
Conservatives marched and had tea parties and had fun. Do you think any of them knew that the taxes they were marching against were put in place by conservatives? They proudly made signs that said: teabagging. Who's laughing now??? "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 17, 2009 7:57 PM:

" cab e-girl
I know my options. I'm glad you enjoy Angelina's posts. They are the musings of a 13 year old girl. They are like diary entries and appeal to many readers.

You said: As far as her postings "Now you know liberals are not the only ones who buy Prius and the like" I find nothing wrong with that, she is simply saying that there is common ground between liberals and conservatives. What in the world is wrong with that?

Finding nothing wrong with that is your take on the statement. You are entitled to your opinion. I found the comment to mean that conservatives don't buy Prius cars as a rule. They don't believe in global warming and the need to conserve and keep carbon monoxide out of the atmosphere. Thus the surprise at the purchase by conservatives. Stereotypes abound. I will always point them out when I see them.
Pharper's posts show a deeper understanding of issues for her age. She is a real thinker, researches her answers and posts, and I believe she is trying to mentor Angelina.
Have a nice evening... "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 17, 2009 8:19 PM:

" misfit -
What comes after a TRILLION?
I was there because I disagree the way our politicians are choosing how to spend taxpayers money and borrowed money from China.
The Boston Tea Party inspired this demonstrations that took place all over our nation, it was not a re-play of the "original one", but an inspiration to bring people like me out and speak out.
You ask "How dare you want all that for nothing". We don't, that's why we were there to make sure those "who want something for nothing" get just that, nothing!

Do you care to explain? I have no idea what you mean with...
misfit wrote on Apr 17, 2009 8:39 AM:
" BTW...Thanks for the "Yeah, oh but" but, we get where you are coming from. Nice try though. "

I am going to disregard your attempt at insulting me for having fun at a demonstration of such serious magnitude, but the enthusiasm of the crowd was contagious. I had a lot of fun!


O/U now -
You are absolutely right, WE GOT THAT!
I was talking with the people in the demonstration and we all seemed to agree that MORE taxes won't solve the problem of politicians not spending responsibly.

proudmama2-
Thank you, and yes, THANK GOD we still have that freedom!

Raven-
Three years of "all expenses paid" is a lot of money, wouldn't you say? "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 17, 2009 8:49 PM:

" pharper-
Just because you disagree that I disagree with your points of view doesn't make me a less -or more- of a person.
The demonstration was an open invitation to those who believe "overtaxation" is not the solution to our economic crisis ("You can't borrow your way out of debt", a sign read. I agree. Economics 101?)
About Congressman Mike Thompson, I am sorry too he was not there to talk to us, an enthusiastic crowd opposing his views on spending taxpayer money.
Your observations about my "personality" and "behavior" resembles a piece I read about Superiority and Inferiority complexes... Now that I know what is "right" with me there will be no need for therapy :) No, seriously, is this the way you label people who disagree with your points of view?


freeport 56-
Thank you for answering trickledown's question.
Yes, I was there because I believe we are obligated to preserve our freedom (very expensive freedom,,,paid with a lot of lives throughout the years).
Misfit didn't make me feel guilty. Guilt only comes from wrong doing and as far as I can tell I haven't done nothing wrong with peacefully and enthusiastically showing up at a demonstration.

My mom and I were trying to guess who were you in that crowd. You had said you were going to be there just about the same time we were, that was a FUN guessing game too. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 17, 2009 9:16 PM:

" cab e girl -
Thank you!
It was the first time we had ever been at a demonstration of any sorts. You were there, you know what I am talking about when I said it was FUN. It was like getting together with friends where you don't need to say much because there is already common ground to begin with. I wish I knew which of the ladies in the crowd was YOU!

pharper -
I find disgusting your attempt to place the "Urban Dictionary" meaning of TEABAGGERS to what these nation wide demonstrations were about.

Bill-
I was not so much amused as I was intrigued. The man didn't fit the "prototype', and with all the "right wing conspiracy theories", I thought there would be the possibility that "someone was watching".

alucawanza -
I stated on my first "diary" entry that now I understand why liberals hold so many more demonstrations than conservatives do, it's because THEY ARE FUN!
And about the Prius comment, the reason behind it it's because liberals seem to have stereotyped conservatives into being ANTI-enviroment PRO-pollution. We are not!
With your observations now I understand exactly what my parents mean with "Wait until you are a teenager, you will know everything!" "

pharper wrote on Apr 17, 2009 11:54 PM:

" Angelina, I don't believe I ever said anything about your personality and behavior. I'm not a psychologist; I don't pretend to be, and you are neither right nor wrong in your opinions. I just think your time would be better spent trying to come up with solutions to problems rather than ripping into other people just because they don't agree with you.

It's interesting that you mention Economics 101, Angelina, because I am in fact currently taking that class (do they offer it in middle school?). Actually, our current project is quite relevant to this subject; our job is to create an economic plan and recommendations for reviving the nation's economy to give to President Obama. One of the things we've learned in the course of this project is that there are several schools of thought on reviving an ailing economy. None of them is right or wrong; they are simply different. You may not believe that this is the correct way to help our economic troubles, but so far I haven't seen any suggestions for a different approach.

Angelina, I admire that you are taking an active interest in our country and I am impressed that you can articulate yourself so clearly most of the time. However, part of being a good debater is being able to back up your points - if you're complaining about the way someone is handling something, come up with a better solution. If you're disagreeing with someone's viewpoint, figure out a way that you can come to a compromise. It's highly immature to simply set your foot down and proclaim that your way is best. It is the sign of a truly mature person to be able to work with those who disagree with them. "

pharper wrote on Apr 17, 2009 11:59 PM:

" Cab e-girl - you may not see it (I don't see how that's possible, but I can give you the benefit of the doubt) but Angelina's entire entry reads with a certain level of disdain for "liberals." The comments she makes may not be direct insults, but you absolutely cannot deny the disparaging references.

And Angelina, though I'm a little surprised that you know what it means, I'm certainly not going to apologize for pointing it out. The smart thing to do would have been for organizers to look it up. It's not my fault that they didn't and that the young culture of America is laughing. "

Raven wrote on Apr 18, 2009 1:12 AM:

" depends angelina....is it to much to keep a family from starving and in some sort of shelter? No....and if you think all expenses are paid when you are welfare, you need to do more research or try living on the magnificent sum. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Apr 18, 2009 4:20 AM:

" Angelina - Demonstrations can be fun!

Now that the fun is over, you might call Mike Thompson's office and make an appointment to meet him.

You are a citizen.

Blog about your experience actually talking to Mike Thompson. What happened when you called? Were you treated politely? What questions you ask?

Mike Thompson has a majority of voters re-elect him by a large margin.

Why might that be?

What's his record? What has he done that you like and dislike?

The stated reasons for demonstrating was, as best as I can tell from the signs and comments, 'taxes' and 'socialism'.

Did you know that Obama, Mike Thompson and the Democrats actually cut working people's taxes starting April 2009?

Did you know the tax cuts would have been bigger but Republicans fought to keep them smaller?

Did you know tax rates for 2008 were set by Republican president George W. Bush and the Republican congress?

Have you noticed corporations get more 'welfare' than people?

Have you noticed that Wall Street investment 'banks' have several $trillion in bailouts while working people have mainly had an extension of unemployment and some jobs creation for building highways, bridges and other infrastructure?

Is unemployment 'welfare'?

In short, some blame the wrong people for high taxes on working people, and don't know most 'welfare' is going to corporations who are putting people out of their homes in record numbers.

Many unemployed people want a job not a handout.

I've met Mike Thompson. If many demonstrators knew the facts they'd be demonstrating as Mike Thompson supporters.

~Ruff "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 18, 2009 7:09 AM:

" Angelina-

Blue dress shirt holding the large "No on Prop 1A" sign. Do you have long brown hair? There was a young girl across the street from yelling patriotic slogans was that you, if it was then I was in very good company.

Thank your parents for doing an excellent job with you. "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 18, 2009 8:46 AM:

" Alu: I first must disclose that I don't know either Angelina or pharper, nor I am related to either of the. Everything I know of them is what they have written in blogs and commentary. See, I find Angelina to be a real thinker. Although her posts are definitely the posts of a 13 year old, they are innocent and sometimes bluntly honest. They also so indpendent thougth. I find pharpers crude comment about the a certain Urban Dictionary definition of a word immature, and perhaps better left for her to giggle with her friends instead of blogging about. pharper said "Every teenager " had a good laugh over that. Angelina found it disgusting thus showing maturity and character. I am sure that pharper has shown maturity as well, and she will continue but lets not just dismiss Angelina's writing because she is 13. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 18, 2009 10:16 AM:

" Raven stated, "and if you think all expenses are paid when you are welfare..."
I had a good friend who was on AFDC for a number of years....her rent was paid by housing, her medical and dental were paid by the state for her and her 3 kids, food stamps bought her food, and she got money for each child. When he kids were growing up they had better dental care than mine did, as we could not afford insurance for dental. Her kids NEVER were without anything they needed, nor was she.
So Raven, what expenes are you reffering to that are not paid? "

Sandra wrote on Apr 18, 2009 10:37 AM:

" As for the urban dictionary and the definition of "Teabaggers".....Pharper, it was not just teenagers having a laugh ...What is unfortunate was not the use "Tea Party" by the demonstrators, but the twisting of their meaning by the opposition by calling them "teabaggers". Anyone who saw the coverage on CNN by Cooper, Schuster, and Gergin (hope I spelled their names right), saw the true meaning of immaturity. I guess they were in good company, as you said "every teenager got a laugh"....though I would suspect that there a number of teenagers that would take offense to your statement. But, CNN newscasters sunk to a very low low, in my opinion. I wonder if these same newscasters would refer to the original tea party demonstrators as teabaggers also? It is a tactic of denegration used to ellicit just the reponse you had. "HEHEHAHA...we are so funny and above those who we oppose." Are you so easily manipulated by the media? "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 18, 2009 11:36 AM:

" Sandra:
The demonstrators had signs that said teabagging. There were hundreds of them with that slogan. There were people wearing hats with tea bags hanging off of them holding signs with that particular word. The media didn't start it, they just reported the lack of awareness on the part of the demonstrators.

cab e-girl: Please read ruff's post. He says it so well. And, again, you are entitled to your opinion. "

pharper wrote on Apr 18, 2009 12:15 PM:

" I think perhaps I'm entitled to a little bit of immaturity, but my point was not so much the specific connotation of the word. It was that people would be careless in putting a name to their cause. You're right, I can't speak for every teenager; that was a poor choice of words on my part and I apologize.

Cab-e girl, never have I dismissed or disparaged Angelina's posts simply because she is young. It would be awfully hypocritical of me to do so, don't you think? I do, however, think she has a lot to learn about expressing her opinion and debating with others (as, I'm sure, do I). One of those things is being able to back up what she says with facts instead of insults, and the willingness to listen and try to understand another person's point of view. Calling names and looking down on the other side is possibly the least mature thing a debater can do. "

Bill wrote on Apr 18, 2009 1:29 PM:

" "Prototype" or stereotype, Angelina? Two very different meanings. The latter better fits your illustration, as for paranoia was that homeless person gathering info amongst the crowd or seeking some Tea.

Again I"m glad you find homelessness intriguing. "

misfit wrote on Apr 18, 2009 2:32 PM:

" I think there is a little "PC" going on here just because Angelina is 13 years old. She has entered into the pool with the big kids so, she needs to be able to back up here innuendo and untruths just as the rest of us are called on to do. None of this, "Isn't this precocious 13 year old just so cute?" stuff. "

misfit wrote on Apr 18, 2009 2:35 PM:

" Ruff...Don't confuse them with the facts...it's not what they want to hear. They might miss out on throwing another fun protest party along with another Faux created news event. "

misfit wrote on Apr 18, 2009 2:54 PM:

" pharper...That's what I meant when I mentioned that Angelina should not have found this event to be "Fun". It wasn't the actual cause that I wondered about it was that it was more just an opportunity to ridicule the President of the United States, to call people names, to make snarky remarks that can't be backed up and to judge those who have less. Is this what a youngster needs to be doing while able to get away with it, protected by her mother's skirt and her youth?
I sincerely hope that Angelina attended some of those "Liberal" protests against the Iraq war, where thousands of innocent people were murdered at the tune of 12 billion borrowed dollars a month that were not even accounted for in the budget. Angelina...where were you then? I'm going to make a Librul out of you if it's the last thing I do! : ) "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 18, 2009 3:24 PM:

" I'd rather read Angelinas take on the day than many of the others who tried to sell this event as a non-partisan rally around a focused cause. This was nothing more than a free for all in bashing Obama and all things "liberal". I'm still trying to figure out who is paying more federal taxes right now. I'm actually paying less right now thanks to the current administration.

I'm glad this group of like-minded individuals got out and held a protest. I hope these same people will no longer dismiss all protest from people of opposing views as a bunch of lazy people who should be at work instead of "whining" in the streets.

Pharper-

Don't apologize for having a sense of humor. Trust me, many people got a giggle out of the unfortunate choice of slogan some people were using. What fun is life if you can't laugh a little at the quirky things that people do. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 18, 2009 5:00 PM:

" Hear Ye-
That event was no more a bashing of Obama and all things liberal than your anti-war and pro gay marriage rallies are a bashing of all things conservative. That does NOT include Bush, who is a RHINO (Republican In Name Only) so please quit saying all conservatives like him, since that is a (very) inaccurate stereotype. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 18, 2009 5:01 PM:

" I find it ironic how every single one of you with views opposite of mine discredit my opinions with the same arguments reversed that I use to discredit yours... apparently yours are valid in this case though...

misfit-
They're just following the comment guidelines. I would prefer if I was treated as if I wasn't 13. I know I am physically and in some ways mentally... but not in the ways where I need "shielding" from the real world. I have an idea, no matter how vague, of what it's like out there... that's it's not all 'everyone is beautiful in their own way and everyone should love you no matter what' like our increasingly left wing schools are trying to make us believe. No wonder so many kids have no idea what to do after college and resort to selling drugs and the like. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 18, 2009 5:06 PM:

" misfit (sorry I'm doing this out of order)-

I can swear to you now that I will never be a liberal. Ever. Before I was at Redwood, I came fairly close to actually believing Gore. Brainwashing does exist, it's not some conspiracy. I dare you to spend every day for six months surrounded by conservatives constantly telling you their view on things and still come out a liberal. "

sandra wrote on Apr 18, 2009 5:25 PM:

" alucawanza,
It is my understanding that the grass root protestors suggested sending Tea Bags to our elected official as a form of protest. It goes to follow that the words tea bag would be used. It does not go to follow that our media should twist this into the gutter, and I question your defense of this tactic.

Hear Ye,
I have a great sense of humor and have no problem with people making jokes about the phrase teabag in private. It is humorous. It is another thing for the media to use this phrase to make a whole segment of our country look stupid. It detracts from the very real concern so many have with the direction the country is going.
It has nothing to do with quirkiness and everything to do with denegration by the media of people they disagree with. "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 18, 2009 5:31 PM:

" It is just so funny how Ruff tries to spin welfare into corporate welfare.....

I will give you this Ruff, the White House4 could use such a deft spinmeister as yourself. "

pharper wrote on Apr 18, 2009 6:23 PM:

" Everyone is beautiful in their own way, Angelina, and everyone should love one another. It's naive to think that'll happen, but that's the way it should be. Knowing that doesn't cause kids to sell drugs. (I'd also like to point out that someone who managed to get through college probably won't be selling drugs, especially for the reason you gave.) "

irishirene wrote on Apr 18, 2009 6:42 PM:

" My goodness, I just picked up on this thread and read all of the 43 comments.

There is an unbelievable chasm between those who went willingly to participate in the "tea party", such as Angelina, and those who so ardently criticize the first nationwide Conservative protest I can remember.

It is hard for me to believe the negativity and nasty criticism of a smart, artiulate13 year old girl.

What I don't understand is "how can anyone be against excessive government spending and real tax cuts?"

It was my understanding that the 2009 "tax cuts" were just a one time tax credit of $400 per person, spread out over 2 years, even if you do not pay taxes. Am I wrong? "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 18, 2009 7:52 PM:

" pharper-
I am not going to ever love someone who would willingly harm another innocent creature, be it a cat or a human. If you love murderers, rapists, and all the sickos out there that are the reason I can no longer go out and hang out with friends in town without having to worry about being kidnapped like that poor little girl who was found in a SUITCASE, in my opinion, you need to get your priorities straight. Please read my comment again. Look deeper, past the obvious.

IrishIrene-
Thank you. I think there was another conservative protest around 14 years ago that my parents went to... not positive though. :) "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 18, 2009 8:20 PM:

" Angelina-

Don't get me wrong, Liberals can bash with the best of them. My point is that the liberal protests tend to be focused on one issue rather than an event sold as a non-partisan protest about taxes but actually just a collection of anti-Obama folks protesting a wide variety of issues both legitimate and otherwise. In other words, you won't go to a pro gay marriage rally and see many anti-war signs and vice versa. It just seemed a bit clumsy, thats all.

I was sincere when I said I was glad that Conservatives held a rally/protest. I'm even happier that they enjoyed themselves. For far too long they spent more time criticizing people for exercising this particular First Amendment right. I hope in the future they will argue the issue at hand rather than ripping people apart for taking the time out of their day to be a voice for an issue they feel passionate about.


Also, I never mentioned Bush in my previous comment so I can't respond to your last comment. "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 18, 2009 8:23 PM:

" pharper- Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am impressed with your ability to own up to your actions. I agree that you are entitled to a bit of immaturity, as is Angelina, after all we would never want you or Angelina to be old beyond your years. My comments were directed at Alucuwanza who was discrediting Angelina's maturity level. "

littlered56 wrote on Apr 18, 2009 9:15 PM:

" All I know is if it were not for the Liberal democrats there would have never been the womens rights to vote! There would never be the Civil Rights laws. In fact women would never be allowed to demonstrate in public were it not for the Liberal women fighting for our equality. I am so sick and tired of the name calling Liberal/conservitive like immature children calling names for the sake of name calling. It was also the Liberals who started social securitey, Mecicare and free schooling for all children in all states in all neighborhoods.It was the liberals who did away with child labor in America and started 40 hour a week labor law.It was the liberals who fought for and got minimum wages passed in American and the consertivies who fight all increases.
It was the Republican President who approved barrowing from the Social Securitey funds.
Our country is indeed in grave trouble when a young person finds something funny about a homeless person.
Perhaps you might like to go work at some of the homeless shelters I am sure you would find it not so funny.
We once had a right to work law in american and if you did you job you could not get fired with out just cause but that was too many laws so the Republicans did away with it and ergo job securitey. "

pharper wrote on Apr 18, 2009 11:01 PM:

" Angelina, my point goes a little past the obvious as well. Love thy neighbor, right? Love thy enemy? Someone could be what we'd think of as an evil person, but it doesn't mean they are undeserving of our compassion and love. Do not confuse those with liking them or condoning their actions, because I do neither. Everyone deserves a basic level of human respect, though - yes, even those who rape and murder, however despicable their actions and character may be. And if you're unable to hang out with your friends because of the case of poor Sandra Cantu, I'm very sorry, but you should know two things - first, that the woman behind it is now behind bars, and second, that you're much more likely to be kidnapped and murdered by a favorite uncle than by a stranger in downtown Napa. Having said that, if you're still scared, I recommend a self-defense class of some sort. I believe you're old enough to take one.

By the way, are you a vegetarian? I am, and I only wondered because you mentioned that you are not "going to ever love someone who would willingly harm another innocent creature, be it a cat or a human." I'm actually genuinely asking, I'm not trying to insult you. "

pharper wrote on Apr 18, 2009 11:02 PM:

" And thank you, cab-e girl. I know I'm not always right, and my father has always insisted that I own up to my actions, and that I respect and try to understand the opinions of others. I hope I'm doing him proud. "

MamaKing wrote on Apr 19, 2009 12:14 AM:

" Angelina, to add to what pharper said, the danger is not what it is perceived to be. Stranger abductions are rare. To quote the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, "The danger is far greater from someone you know than from a random, faceless person." Further, most abductions are between 2pm and 7pm, involve a vehicle and are near schools or near school-related activities.

Astoundingly, the Tracy girl was murdered (allegedly) by a woman - a mother! - nearly unheard of (unless it's her own children).

And feel free to go hang out with your friends. The recommendation is that kids not go places ALONE because they are more vulnerable and predators are just waiting for their chance. Keep in mind your surroundings and trust your instincts; if something seems a bit "off" to you, seek help.

Part of the reason we think these hideous events are more prevalent is that we have more and faster media coverage and we no longer sweep these incidents under the rug. "

anticommie wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:16 AM:

" Pharper Wrote:

"To me, this piece was written in a manner that offers absolutely no willingness to compromise with the other side, and even ventures to tout dissenting opinions as lesser than Angelina's own. "

Sometimes pharper you shouldnt compromise with the other side. Try working in a field that compromising with the other side, means you lose. In real life there are times that a compromise works, and other times it does not. Thank God our founding fathers knew enough was enough 'Compromising' with King George. "

anticommie wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:23 AM:

" Hear Ye:

"I'm actually paying less right now thanks to the current administration."

ACTUALLY.... Obama hasnt even signed his new budget yet, so the less that you are paying is a result of President Bush's tax cuts NOT Obamas. The president signs the budget every year for the next fiscal year. Libs just cant fathom to ever give Bush credit for anything. "

anticommie wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:26 AM:

" Pharper:

And what are the socialists plan of reviving America in your Economy class? Oh.. wait Obama is already doing that!! My bad. "

anticommie wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:28 AM:

" Ruff:

"Have you noticed that Wall Street investment 'banks' have several $trillion in bailouts while working people have mainly had an extension of unemployment and some jobs creation for building highways, bridges and other infrastructure?"

Isnt Obama giving the Wall Streeters money just like Bush did? Shouldnt you be upset with that? "

anticommie wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:34 AM:

" pharper wrote on Apr 18, 2009 11:01 PM:

" Angelina, my point goes a little past the obvious as well. Love thy neighbor, right? Love thy enemy? Someone could be what we'd think of as an evil person, but it doesn't mean they are undeserving of our compassion and love."

Would you have given Hitler, Stalin, Mao compassion and love? I know you are only 17, and most people at that age are idealistic in their viewpoints. Actually that is what is great about being 17, you havent been in the real world yet tosee how it actually operates.

I thought the same way as you once my young friend, but then I opened my eyes to the reality of the way things are. You can wish for the best in people, but I GUARANTEE you, not all people deserve love and compassion. You should tour a prison some day and see some of the types of people that deserve no such thing. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 19, 2009 7:11 AM:

" pharper-
I do not respect people who end the lives of the people they kill, along with leaving the families with so much fear if the police don't catch the killer. I do not respect rapists who make the women they hurt live in fear for the rest of their lives no matter how much counseling they get. I hold not even the slightest amount of respect for those people. Or the people who starve starve their pets, people who fight dogs and roosters.

Killing for food
is another story. I respect people who hunt for food, but not the people who hunt for sport.

I have taken self defense. I know where to kick and punch, I know how to break an arm, but it still doesn't change the fact that my parents could go out in their neighborhoods at night and hang out without even a thought of the chance that they could be kidnapped. There wasn't a chance that they would THEN, but what happened so that there is a chance NOW??? "

Tar and Feathers wrote on Apr 19, 2009 7:21 AM:

" Yes Mellsa Huckabee is in jail but it is too late. SANDRA CANTU, the little, little girl is DEAD. Melisa Huckabee will become the victim thru the eyes of the media. Millions of dollars will be spent in her defense which will go to the lawyers who appeal and appeal in the name of a fair trial. If she is so distraught why doesn't Huckabee do the right thing and end her own life. SANDRA'S parents will slowly die from the inside out watching the trial go on for 15=20 years.
The citizens of this country are lucky that the tea party protestors did not behave like the Boston Tea Party did or we would be watching the government buildings still burning across this country.
The politicians better be listening to the silent majority because last wek ended our silence. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 19, 2009 8:44 AM:

" freeport-
Yup, that was me!! I think I saw you... you were on the sidewalk by the bridge, right? It's a nice thing to know that we were in good company... "

Mamaking wrote on Apr 19, 2009 8:45 AM:

" Angelina,your parents were in as much danger when they were growing up as you are now. Which is to say not much. Years ago, in fact I imagine they may have been at risk of being abused multiple times because so many people couldn't believe that Grampa Joe would do such a thing. Not that grampa is an abductor, he's "just"a child molestor. I would suggest that anyone living in fear of abduction do some research. Melissa Huckaby is a person today's experts would have considered "safe" for a child to approach for help. "

misfit wrote on Apr 19, 2009 8:49 AM:

" Angelina Gervasio...I have been there and done that. I watch Hannity and O'Reilly and I even listen to Rush now and then in my efforts to "Get it". I read conservative blogs and even try to sit through Glen Beck. I have an open mind and what you have just stated is that you don't and never will. Fine! "

PastNapan wrote on Apr 19, 2009 9:20 AM:

" Angelina, Thank you ! You have given me hope that not all kids coming out of our liberal school system come out parroting their teacher's views.

As they have clearly demonstrated their "peace, love and tolerance" is only for those that agree with them.

That they have attacked you, a 13 year old child shows just how low they will sink to try to force their views on others.

Once they throw out bigot or racist you know you've won the argument. That's their last resort to shut you up.

Your parents should be proud, keep speaking out and stand up for your beliefs. "

Raven wrote on Apr 19, 2009 10:37 AM:

" well anti, many of us are paying less because of the stimulus tax cuts ... not bush's budget...

tar and feathers....Huckabee has been arrested and charged...she has not been convicted of anything....and she, like all of us, deserves a fair trial.

As for the tea party, in the original they only thing that was damaged was the tea...no ships, no building, no people....so you threat of using the original as an excuse to riot kind of demeans the message many of the attenders were trying to send. "

pharper wrote on Apr 19, 2009 11:33 AM:

" anticommie, I may be young. I will admit that I don't have the life experience of most of the posters here. But what I do know is that yes, there is always a compromise, ESPECIALLY in the United States. At the very least, there is ALWAYS the opportunity to listen to what the other side is saying, and try to understand it. For example, I don't agree with pro-life people, but I understand why they believe what they believe. Calling names and blaming things on the other side is childish and useless. How can we as a country further ourselves if we can't listen to one another?

And I'm sorry, Angelina, but nothing has changed since your parents were children. Predators did not suddenly spring up overnight. Most people are good people; it's that simple. At heart, most people are good. There are no more child predators now than there were when your parents were children, or your grandparents. As MamaKing said, we have faster media coverage, and child kidnappings, murders, and molestations are no long swept under the rug.

As for love and compassion - Hitler was an evil man, no doubt about it. I'd be the first to agree to that. But he was still a human being, and it saddens me that something went so wrong in his life (or in his body; perhaps his cruelty was born, not made). I wish there were a way to help people like that.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

And anticommie - if you'd like to see what we're doing for the project, rather than disparaging it with comments about President Obama, you could sign up to be a panelist when we do our presentations. Call New Tech High. "

pharper wrote on Apr 19, 2009 11:44 AM:

" PastNapan - Angelina is not a child. She is young, but she has chosen to engage herself in the debate, and has accepted the responsibility to be mature and handle the fact that not everyone will agree with her. I don't think I've attacked her; I don't think anyone here has either. We're just pointing things out - and expressing our own opinions, which is the purpose of being able to comment.

As for that "liberal school system" - I've spent thirteen years in it, and I've never once heard a teacher express their political opinions - except a teacher in sixth grade who told us she was a registered Republican. Another teacher who claimed to be a conservative Catholic had us pray in class. We've watched documentaries that are slanted from both sides (for example, just this semester: one about the joys of free-market capitalism, and another called The Corporation, which is about the downside).

That liberal school system is a myth. I'm sorry, but it is. "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 19, 2009 12:50 PM:

" Angelina-

Hopefully we can protest together soon. You are dead on it was great fun. "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 19, 2009 12:55 PM:

" anticommie-

I stand by what I said. This current administration had a tax cut/credit pushed through that started earlier this month. Bush had nothing to to do with that. "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 19, 2009 1:11 PM:

" littlered56-
IYou better do a much better job on your homework.

While the Democrats take the credit for the Civil Rights laws passed in this country, look again it was the Republican Party that lead the way on civil rights since the Civil War.

As for Women's Right to in 1920, from Wikipedia: The Sixty-sixth United States Congress was a meeting of the legislative branch of the United States federal government, comprising the United States Senate and the United States House of Representatives. It met in Washington, DC from March 4, 1919 to March 4, 1921, during the last two years of Woodrow Wilson's presidency. The apportionment of seats in this House of Representatives was based on the Thirteenth Census of the United States in 1910. Both chambers had a Republican majority.

The right to vote was ratifdied when a majority of states approved the amendment to the constitution. Your information is hardly correct. rather than listen to what other people are telling you do the research on how trhese events actually transpired; The historical facts and numbers show the Republican Party was more for civil rights than the Democrats from "the party of justice," as Bill Bradley called it. The Civil Rights Act of 1964, in reality, could not have been passed without Republican votes. It is an "injustice" for contemporary Democratic politicians and the liberal news media to continue to not give the Republicans credit for their civil rights triumphs. Now is the time for Republicans to start informing black Americans of those historical triumphs to lead them back to their "home party."
Source: http://www.nationalcenter.org/NVDavisBradley1299.html


Just a little Historical note; Martin Luther King Jr. was registered to vote as a Republican. National Black Republican Party.

Have a nice day! "

dcb wrote on Apr 19, 2009 1:35 PM:

" Your commentary on the Napa tax day tea party was more accurate than what was actually reported. I was also there, after attending the one in Sacramento. It was all very telling how the media handled all of it, especially the CNN "reporter" who tried to pick a fight with the people in the crowd. These rallies (all 802 of them) were attended by people who were not recruited by Acorn or other rent-a-mob groups. They were authentic, hard working Americans who are tired of paying for career politicians who have no clue about any of us, but make sure they get their per diem, their own special pensions, the best health care, etc., and will do whatever their big donors want, in order to stay in their job for life. They push for citizenship for illegal aliens because they think they will vote for them. This could backfire on them when many of these wonderful Catholic Hispanics realize narcissistic politicians have little regard for the life of the unborn, or anyone besides themselves for that matter. Don't we all feel so much safer now that Homeland Security is watching out for right-wing extremists such as myself, who go to church, go to work, pay their taxes (and their own mortgage, etc.), believe in the sanctity of life and the God-ordained marriage between a man and woman, the right to own a gun to protect myself and my family. I applaud you for your boldness. Keep seeking truth and standing up for what you believe. "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 19, 2009 2:00 PM:

" Can someone please remind me why are we assailing a 13-year-old girl for her beliefs? I am appalled at the vicious attacks by so called liberals that embrace diversity and free thought. Why is it so offensive to those of you on the left that a young person thinks differently than you? Because she has not allowed herself to be brainwashed by the public school system or the left leaning media? Maybe it is because she is right about certain issues?

Liberals claim to "care" about all children and want to "protect" them. Well, you care about children who believe your dribble, not about those who don't. You want to protect those children who accept your views as gospel. You claim to want "Free Speech," but when a 13 year old dissents, you want to throw her under the bus.

Angelina has a firm belief in her value system, that's what makes her a strong kid. I applaud that, as well as other young contributors who believe firmly in the values their parents have passed down to them. These kids are our future, and we want them to think outside the box. We all should be thankful that both sides are well represented on this site by today's youth. "

misfit wrote on Apr 19, 2009 3:33 PM:

" Hopefully, these kids are thinking outside of the TV Box! Faux news is dangerous to a young mind. "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 19, 2009 3:49 PM:

" dcb-

Yes most of us do feel safer that Homeland Security is watching over any and all hate groups that are using violent rhetoric. If you want to lump yourself in with the folks referenced in the HSA report, well that is quite frightening.


Cab-e-girl-

I don't understand your post. Is everyone supposed to just pat her on the back and giver her a free pass. I don't think that is what Angelina is looking for. She is writing a politically driven blog that is open for the rest of us to comment on within the comment guidelines. Who are these people that don't care about her or want to stifle her free speech? I've yet to see Angelina use her age as a crutch against criticism so why should anyone else? "

kevin wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:04 PM:

" irishirene asked: "It was my understanding that the 2009 "tax cuts" were just a one time tax credit of $400 per person, spread out over 2 years, even if you do not pay taxes. Am I wrong? "

You got it right Irene, but the IRS so far has merely changed the witholding tables for your emplorer. They are not witholding as much taxes from your paycheck. Unfortunately the credit is limited to people who make less than $75 K per year ($150 K for couples). So some people are going to have to PAY BACK that credit when they pay their taxes next year.

BTW, Conservatives HAVE protested before. When Bill Clinton used to come to San Francisco there would be hundreds of protesters waiting for him (I know, I was there). "One, two, three, four pick your pants up off the floor!" LOL. Good times.

Of course with the Liberal media we would NEVER make the news. The Democrat "rent-a-mob" would be on the news, and they were union workers getting PAID to show up! I especially love how the Lefties made signs that LOOK home made, but if you look close you can see they are professionally PRINTED. I give the Dems credit, they are good at spin.

But let THREE people have a "protest" against President Bush and it it would be on CNN. I saw it!

Angeliana, don't let anyone here bully you. It's ok to be compassionate. Someone famous once said:

"If you are not Liberal when you are young, you don't have a heart. If you are not Conservative when you get older you don't have a brain." "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:05 PM:

" cab e-grl
I taught for 25 years in Napa's public school system. We didn't/don't brainwash students. We follow the standards set by the California government. Political material is not even allowed to be placed in teachers' mailboxes.
Teachers do not tell students their political affiliations. There is no "left" way to teach long division or Ancient Egyptian history.
There is great political diversity in the schools. The lunchroom can buzz with a political debate. It doesn't go into the classroom.

Do you think for a moment that a parent would approve of such behavior from a teacher brought home from school? They'd march into the principal's office and have the teacher on the carpet. The school's behavior is closely monitored by parents..as it should be.

Liberal beliefs are not "dribble". I guess dribble was the strongest word you could use in these posts. I know what you meant. We care about all children. You're stereotyping liberals very negatively. I cared for all of my students. They were "my kids."

No political view is gospel. Everyone, in this country, is entitled to their political view. Change is the only constant.

Angelina is 13. Indeed, she has a firm belief in her value system. I'm glad she's becoming a critical thinker. When she goes through individuation her values may change. It is all a process of growth. I am thankful for the growth that prepares the young for the future. Angelina is still not thinking "outside the box." But, she will. She sounds like a very determined, confident girl. "

PastNapan wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:22 PM:

" To Pharper.
A 13 year old IS a child. And I've been reading the liberal rantings of "A Teacher" for months now. A child of mine would never see the inside of a Napa school unless it were a private one.

I live in one of the most Republican areas in the entire state of CA and am hosting a foreign exchange student.
During the election her government teacher told the class "The Republicans lie and Sarah Palin has no business running for office with a down syndrome child"

She was afraid of the teacher retaliating with a bad grade or I would have gone down there and had a nice sitdown with the teacher and the school principal. I believe this person should be fired. When you're a teacher your political opinions need to be kept to yourself.

I can only imagine the liberal outcry if a conservative teacher uttered anything unflattering about Obama.

That you say the public school system isn't liberal is laughable. "

TrickleDown wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:56 PM:

" Reading this letter again, the partisan-ness is just incredible. Some quotes:

From Angelina:
...we went to the Tea Party April 15 in downtown Napa in front of Congressman Mike Thompson's office on Main and Pearl (I wonder if his staff took a day off because I didn't see anybody in there or maybe they had already gone home for the day). My mom and I arrived around 6 p.m.

Ummm. A very large percentage of workers, of all political persuasions, end their workday before 6 p.m. Are you trying to insinuate that they are either lazy or afraid?

Angelina says: "Some drivers looked completely and entirely clueless." Let's see: You say your group was protesting taxes, but you have signs that read: "Got a Birth Certificate?" Maybe the drivers' looks of confusion, or cluelessness as you call it, were due to the fact that it wasn't clear what you all were protesting, even if you want to say it was an "Anti-tax protest"

And then Angelina says "at least five different people in their cars flipped us off (so much for "peaceful" and "tolerant" Obama supporters)" and when I question this above freeport56 answers, and Angelina agrees, that "we could tell by Obama emblem on their car!". So each of the five cars that flipped the bird also advertised their support for Obama with a bumper sticker? Is there real honesty in this statement?

It is amazing the influence of talk radio today. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 19, 2009 5:54 PM:

" Cab e-girl,
Liberal and freedom of thought are no longer words that go together. A true liberal embraces other view points, not denegrates them. A true liberal does assail a 13 year old for her beliefs. A liberal country would not have FBI and homeland security investigating the following:
"Rightwing Extremism: Current
Economic and Political Climate Fueling
Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment
7 April 2009
Prepared by the Extremism and Radicalization Branch, Homeland Environment Threat Analysis
Division. Coordinated with the FBI."

Google it, if you do not know what I am talking about.
It seems that half our country is now radical and extreme because they dare to not march in lockstep with the current administration. Welcome to the Brave New World. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 19, 2009 6:04 PM:

" misfit-
OMG!!!! We finally agree on something!!!! I completely agree that television ruins not only kids brains but adults brain as well. My parents canceled our cable 12 years ago. We only use our flat-screen for movies rented at redbox. "

Tar and Feathers wrote on Apr 19, 2009 7:01 PM:

" Forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't the Boston Tea Party the first civilian protest leading to the American Revolution? A bloody war against the then ruling government.
Back to Taxes..... The biggest ponzi scheme ever is the Social Security Tax. Madoff only got caught when the market went south and people asked for their money back. The carpet baggers only way out of this one is to not let the baby boomers retire. Watch the age of retirement to collect social security go up 3-4 years pretty soon.
Its the carpetbaggers who are afraid, not the tax payers of this country. Homeland Security will never be a threat to us. Why you ask? Because its run by the government. Our gov't has had us equally divided on many silly issues. Taxes affect us all and will be the one issue that brings us all together. The theory of Divide and Conquer, which has worked for eons of time, will end.
If only Obama can get his cabinet to pay their taxes we might be able to get out of this mess!
Yes, we can keep going downtown with our signs, being peaceful little sheep, but mark my words, this current administration is going to enact policies that will even bring Mother Teresa out of the grave. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 19, 2009 7:24 PM:

" pharper-
To your "Hitler" comment... You lose...Game Over "

dcb wrote on Apr 19, 2009 7:34 PM:

" Hear ye, Mr. or Ms. Hear Ye - read the report. Let me reiterate. While our president is making "friends" will dictators, his Homeland Security Department is giving the terrorist threat label to anyone of the following groups:
People who call themselves Christians.
People who call themselves pro-life.
People who believe in the 2nd amendment.
People who believe in the Constitution.
AND people in uniform who have served their country to defend our freedom. Read the report and then
get a clue. Sharing a cup of tea with dictators and singing Kumbaya is not going to change the fact that they hate Americans, liberal and conservative alike, and will do anything, even to the point of their own death, to see us wiped off the face of the earth. Do you get that? They've done it before and they will do it again, if we drop our guard. Those on the above list who are "being watched" are not the enemy. And kissing up to the dictators will only embolden them. "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 19, 2009 9:02 PM:

" dcb-

I have read the report, however, it's clearer than ever that you my friend have not. I suggest reading it for yourself rather than letting Hannity and the like tell you what to think about it. Again, If you want to lump yourself in with Rightwing extremist using violent speech then that's your problem.

No where in the report does it back up your claims

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf "

Raven wrote on Apr 19, 2009 9:30 PM:

" tar and feathers ... the first protest?..hardly...you could go back and say the Boston massacre several years earlier 1770 .. the burning of a British revenue cutter, the Gaspee in Rhode Island in 1772....both could be called protests, albeit violent ones.

and again...the issue at the tea party was not the tax but lack of representation...(plus New England smugglers not wanting anything to inhibit their lucrative trade) "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 19, 2009 10:57 PM:

" Alu: Thank you for teaching. I hope that you did not bring politics into the classroom and that you were the teacher that made a difference in children's lives. I had such teachers and still think very fondly of how they were able to teach and guide me through my elementary, junior and high school years.

As a parent, your description of public schools is not the experience that our children have had in Napa schools, and in fact the last of our four children ended up going to a private school, so we have experienced both private and public schools. Most teachers in the private sector are concerned with educating, not politics, even liberal instructors in private schools do not share their politics with their students. I appreciated and respected those teachers. We however, have experienced the same issues as PastNapan, liberal teachers retaliate against conservative students, especially if they are bright with handing out poor grades. There are things going on in the classroom that simply doesn't belong there. You should also not assume that all parents will march into a principals office when they are unhappy with an instructor.

There is no questions as to the state of public California schools. They are in shambles. I am not claiming to know what all the answers are, but what you have been doing is not working. Change is required. There is an entire generation of kids that are being let down by public schools in California. There lives are being negatively impacted by our schools, which serves no one. "

Paddy wrote on Apr 19, 2009 11:17 PM:

" Angelina, very awesome! Keep up the critical thinking. "

dcb wrote on Apr 20, 2009 6:57 AM:

" Suggested reading for Hear Ye - The United States Constitution, The Bill of Rights, a history book that has not been politically corrected; i.e., quotes from our founding fathers. You might even read Saul Alinsky just to see why your President thinks the way he does, and compare his philosophies of those of other Socialist leaders. And then wonder why we are concerned about our country, our Constitution and our Freedom. And our concern must be right on, or they wouldn't be targeting us in a document that was SUPPOSED to be super secret. And they even apologized for the part about the military, but they did not change it. "

Tar and Feathers wrote on Apr 20, 2009 7:36 AM:

" The political puppets only represent big business and special interest. As soon as the Bush tax cuts expire the current administration will not re-new them hence the hike in taxes. The current puppets use this spin to claim they have not raised taxes.
We are not even taking into account the tax hike the California puppets are going to enact
Property taxes are falling dramitically. Unemployment in California is at 11%. This results in a severe decrease in stolen revenue for the state yet they still refuse to balance the budget. Insanity for any private business. Calamity for the State. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:49 AM:

" alucawanza,
I strongly disagree with your post of Apr 19, 2009 4:05 PM. My husband has been and still is teaching for over 20 years in our J.C. system. He teaches students fresh out of high school and is appalled at the lack of true knowledge they hold regarding our country's past. There is revisionism and doctrination going on. Parents need to pick up a history text, and become aware of what is being taught, and NOT being taught. Most elementary school teachers do not have enough of a history background to be aware of what is being left out of the texts, and what is being included in the texts they are mandated to use. And many of those that do are very accepting of the revisionism because they also agree with the agenda. We are not teaching our students to think critically, but are teaching them to follow a certain world view being promoted, in part, by those in charge of the school system. Teachers make their political views very strongly known muuch of the time by what they choose to present and not present. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 20, 2009 10:07 AM:

" Hear ye,
I too have read this report and am very disturbed by the following excerpts from it. I am surprised anyone would find this acceptable.

“The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists
capable of carrying out violent attacks.”

“Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.”

Our military are some of the most patriotic members of our society, and to think they will be watched when they return after serving our country is appalling.

“Prominent among these themes were the militia movement’s opposition to gun control efforts, criticism of free trade agreements (particularly those
with Mexico), and highlighting perceived government infringement on civil liberties as well as white supremacists’ longstanding exploitation of social issues such as abortion, inter-racial crimes, and same-sex marriage.”

All of you who have vocally opposed abortion are now being lumped in with with those committing interacial crimes.

“Rightwing extremists were concerned during the 1990s with the perception
that illegal immigrants were taking away American jobs through their willingness to work at significantly lower wages. They also opposed free trade agreements, arguing that
these arrangements resulted in Americans losing jobs to countries such as Mexico.”

Well here I find myself....I am now a right wing extremist because I question an illegal workforce, and free trade agreements.

This is acceptable to you? REALLY???
As I said, welcome to the BRAVE NEW WORLD. "

Alter ego wrote on Apr 20, 2009 10:11 AM:

" Acluwanza said: "There is no "left" way to teach long division or Ancient Egyptian history."

I beg to differ.

About 15 years ago, during one of the "new, new" math experiments, the grades school math books were filled with stories (evidently they were supposed to be word problems) about Third World children and how hard their lives were because the US was not doing enough to help them.

How pathetic. "

funnyme wrote on Apr 20, 2009 10:45 AM:

" That's our kid!...Yes, we are very proud of her!
We are glad she is "parroting" conservatives and not liberals seeing by herself how our society works, our country and the world. She is the product of the California public school system, the "melting pot", a stay home mom, family and moral values that adhere to The Ten Commandments, and the freedom to read just about anything that lands on her hands.

I have to thank you all of you for helping shape up her ideas and perception of the world she lives in first hand. When some of you try to bring her down with your comments I see her standing taller, when some of you attempt to insult her intelligence her thirst for knowledge overwhelms her and then she understands you better, when some of you praise her or come out in her defense she smiles...and for that I THANK YOU ALL! "

Tar and Feathers wrote on Apr 20, 2009 10:51 AM:

" Sandra and Cabegirl, thank you for addressing alucawanza's denial, I didn't even know where to start. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 20, 2009 11:45 AM:

" One part I forgot to include in the excerpts from the homeland security document:

"Right wing extremism can be broadly divided into those groups, movements,and adherents that are primarily hate oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial, or ethnic gropus, and those that are mainly anitgovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration."

How about that last sentence? Are those opposing abortion commiting a hate crime, or rejecting government authority? What about those who have illegal immigration concerns?

"Rightwing extremists were concerned during the 1990s with the perception
that illegal immigrants were taking away American jobs ..."

And how will rejecting government authority be defined? The city council in their attempt to make a statement against prop. 8 could be accused of rejecting government authority.

If you do not find this document alarming I can only wonder ....... "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 20, 2009 12:16 PM:

" I've never seen people so willingly try to lump themselves in with extremist hate groups. Again, no where in the report does it speak of average folks who disagree with the Administration being watched over. This is about Tim McVeigh types and other HATE groups. I can't imagine why anyone WOULD be alarmed about this report. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 20, 2009 12:32 PM:

" Aneglina: Your writing skills continue to amaze, even if i don't agree with much of what you say.

Pastnapan: I may rant on these pages, but in the classroom I haven't the time to talk politics (you can ask Angelina, 7th grade math is no joke for many students). While it is obvious that I am a liberal guy, I don't think it's fair to push any of my beliefs on my students. I just try to be a good example. The only time I get political is when asked a direct question by a student (like- who are you voting for?).

The social studies department in my school is three very right wing men and one young woman (whose political leanings are unknown). Teachers, like other proffessionals mirror the world at large. There are left wingers, right wingers, very religious and atheists. If they are good teachers they are genuine people who don't hide who they are.

There is, BTW, no leftist way to teach long division. Alter Ego claims there is such a book. Tell us what the title of the book is, because I just don't believe you. "

irishirene wrote on Apr 20, 2009 12:50 PM:

" kevin,

I hope you are kidding. Do you mean that the $13 "tax cut" I got in my last pay check will have to be repaid if I make more than $75k this year? That doesn't make sense.

I thought Obama said the bottom 95% of us would get a tax cut. "

funnyme wrote on Apr 20, 2009 1:58 PM:

" teacher,
I DO believe there is such a "leftist approach" in education in the public school system. It is more obvious in the "charter" schools (Experienced it in two different California school districts) at the point where we had to pull our kids out. I am not saying ALL of the charter schools are "bad apples", perhaps I just happened to have bad luck twice. "

littlered56 wrote on Apr 20, 2009 3:02 PM:

" Woodrow wilsonwas a Democrat serving as President when the womans right to vote was ratified. Women were called upon to work in our factories because men were sent off to fight in WW1. Sisteen thousand women surronded the White House demanding their right to vote. President Wilson went to the Senate to inform them our factories could be closed if the women walked off the job.
So the riight to vote was indeed at the hands of a Democratic president.
It is common knowledge and well reported in many History Books that LB Johnson went to the Congressmen and Senators he had worked with during his years there and called in all his IOU'S in order to get the 1963 civil rights law passed. I thought it was common knowledgs the democrats needed republicans to vote for their legistration.
Regarding MLK..indeed he was a republican, until he met with John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. MLK wife and children also became Democrats.
I would love to know the names of the republicans who actullay wrote and introduced legistration for womans rights or civial rights.
How sad it is to pick bits and peacs of History and use it as all the work of Republicans omitting all the facts.
The truth remains George Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction and ran the tax bill up to Trillions of dollars. Allowed Gay male prostutes to have securitey clearence the White House
And sent our military into war with out armour plated vehicals. "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 20, 2009 4:47 PM:

" Sandra: Thank you for your post, you are of course completely correct. Today's self proclaimed liberals are not liberals, they are Socialists and Marxists. You are right on regarding The Dept of Homeland Security. If you are not shocked and frightened by what this Dept is putting out, you should be.

Hear ye, I don't want our government to declare that certain political thoughts make you an extremist. Meanwhile, the Obama administration sets free Islamic terrorists, who have hunted our military men and women and blown up our soldiers. "

misfit wrote on Apr 20, 2009 4:48 PM:

" where you been littlered56? I like you ; ) "

misfit wrote on Apr 20, 2009 4:55 PM:

" teacher...You have to know by now that nothing adds up for the righties. No matter what facts they are given, they come up with a completely different answer. I try to tell them to "Just do the math" but, they still don't get it. It's no wonder they continue to believe that liberals are brain washing their kids in Algebra class. I wish they had been able to brainwash mine. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:12 PM:

" Angelina: Fantastic article and responses. You GO girl!

(And can you teach 56 how to spell check?) "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:18 PM:

" I agree Cab-e-girl, I don't want our government to declare that certain political thoughts make you an extremist either. I hope that they never do. "

funnyme wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:28 PM:

" Hey misfit, since you have bonded with red56 and identified with her line of thinking, would it be possible to translate her posts for us? "

a teacher wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:31 PM:

" FunnyMe: In my experience, and I've taught in many different regions of the USA, the politics in schools reflects the politics in the local community. Conservative school districts have conservative teachers and liberal school districts have liberal ones. Napa is a fairly liberal place.

You can't judge all public schools based on the charter schools you went to. They operate on completely different rules than we do.

On a completely different note, have you tried my green chile soup yet? The warm weather has me thinking it's time to whip up a batch. "

antipc wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:35 PM:

" alucawanza wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:05 PM:
" cab e-grl
I taught for 25 years in Napa's public school system. We didn't/don't brainwash students.

Really alu, so why did I have to undo political teachings brought home by my children. It’s not my imagination that a teacher at Vintage told our son he wasn't welcome in the class because he wore Nike's. Nor is my imagination that schools hold a “Silence for the Day”, (just learned of that one today). Maybe global warming is being taught at elementary school level to fill a time void rather than teaching readin,’ writin,’ & ‘rithmatic. Your arguments are dishonest if not apologetic for the system.

BTW, I enjoyed the Tea Party. Even though I don't think I scored any style points for protesting. "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:38 PM:

" Alter Ego said:
About 15 years ago, during one of the "new, new" math experiments, the grades school math books were filled with stories (evidently they were supposed to be word problems) about Third World children and how hard their lives were because the US was not doing enough to help them.

I was there 15 years ago, teaching sixth grade, here in a Napa Public school. There was no such math book adopted by this district. This book doesn't exist in this county.

Sandra: Do you even know what 4th, 5th, and 6th grade Social Studies curriculums are? Fourth grade studies California History up to the time of the mission period. Fifth grade studies U.S. History up to the Civil War. Sixth grade studies Ancient Civilizations. How Marxist can Mesopotamia be? How liberal was Christopher Columbus? How socialist was Father Junipero Serra?
So, I am not educated enough to know revisionist history when I see it? You don't know me...
I stand by what I posted. It's the truth. Never, in 25 years of teaching, have I ever run into a teacher behaving as you and cab e-girl have stated. I was there.
Hidden agendas abound here. Generalizations are being made that are not true. Real life experiences that you have had have another side to the story that we'll never know.

cab e-girl said:
Today's self proclaimed liberals are not liberals, they are Socialists and Marxists.
If that is so, then self-proclaimed conservatives are not conservatives, they are radical reactionaries.
It is very obvious that avoiding name-calling is not being practiced. Words like Marxism and Socialist shouldn't be used so lightly. Sounds like a personal attack to me... "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:41 PM:

" Tar and Feathers:
My post was not a denial. It was a statement of fact and truth. "

pharper wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:41 PM:

" Angelina, I didn't realize we were playing a game. How have I lost it? By expressing my opinion? I think, perhaps, that expressing an unpopular opinion is more like winning than it is like losing.

but if doing so makes me a loser, so be it. I just don't understand your comment.

As for the school system being liberal - myth. I've spent thirteen years in public schools, and only twice have I heard (or gleaned) a teacher's political leanings. The first was in third grade, when we had to pray (for what, I forget). The second was in sixth, when a teacher proclaimed to us that she was a Republican conservative. Apart from those two isolated incidents, I have never had a teacher so much as imply their political opinions. We watch documentaries and read books from both ends of the spectrum - from The Corporation (which I found interesting, but undoubtedly harpooned the free market economic system) to a documentary (I forget the title) about how awesome a truly laissez-faire economy would be. We are not criticized for debating in class (if anything, healthy, polite debate is encouraged) and all points of view are accepted. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 20, 2009 6:11 PM:

" Angelina,

I have a daughter at Vintage High. In her Government class she was recently given a Political Issues Survey - intended to determine whether the student is liberal or conservative.

The survey consisted of a series of statements. Students rated the statements on a scale of 1 - 5 based on whether they agreed or disagreed with the statement.

The teacher's final instruction prior to the survey was as follows: "If you score on the left-end of the scale you are a liberal - like Ghandi. If you score on the right end of the scale you are a conservative - like Hitler."

Angelina, please keep up your courage to speak the truth. You are in for more challenges ahead. But always know that you have many millions of caring supporters behind you at every step! "

Sandra wrote on Apr 20, 2009 6:18 PM:

" Hear ye,
Please define "average folks who disagree with the Administration being watched over". Because in this document nothing is said about average folks. What is said is plain for all to see. You seem to miss the point entirely. The words and goals of this document can be used to single out any of the types of people mentioned in it at any time. It is another step forward in controlling the population. It also targets, by this sentence "It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.", a pretty large segment of our society. And by that, does exactly what you say you hope never happens when you say, "I don't want our government to declare that certain political thoughts make you an extremist either. I hope that they never do."
I am not comfortable with that, and neither should you be if you value the freedoms granted to us in our constitution. "

pharper wrote on Apr 20, 2009 6:23 PM:

" anti-pc - The Day of Silence is optional, and brings attention to the cruelty and misunderstanding that many GLBT teenagers face. No one is forced to participate, no one gets in trouble for not participating, and those who do participate are more likely to be teased or ridiculed than those who don't. Most of the kids at my school participate including myself) but I don't know about Napa and Vintage. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 20, 2009 6:35 PM:

" alucawanza,
Yes I do know what the elementary carriculim is, and this is NOT what I was referring to. To think that elementary grades 1-6 is where our kids are forming thier adult opinions on history and politics is kind of silly, if you ask me. It is mainly in middle and high school where the more complicated subjects concerning our world are covered.
But since you bring up Christopher Columbus, I must assume you were not aware that it is common revisionist doctrine to infer that he killed vast numbers of native Americans on purpose, when in reality it was disease brought from europe that killed the majority. Read Zahn. Now there's a fellow who wants to rewrite the past to reflect his political viewpoint.
Were you also aware the the Holacaust is brought down to a picture with headings, WHILE pages are dedicated to our countries Japanese internment camps, in many of the history books being used to teach today?
As I said political leanings of our school curriculim can be determined by what is left out just as easliy as by what is being taught.

Pharper,
Have you considered that you never hear about your teachers political leanings because you never do anything to challenge their views?
My oldest son, who is in the Air Force, and defineitly more conservative than leftwing heard plenty from his highschool teachers. Try saying something right winged in one of your social science classes and see what happens. "

antipc wrote on Apr 20, 2009 7:03 PM:

" Oh I see Pharper, the ROTC is not allowed on certain campuses but the GLBT agenda is welcomed universally.

Double edged sword, eh? "

Sandra wrote on Apr 20, 2009 7:07 PM:

" Littlered56,
If this "sent our military into war with out armour plated vehicals" bothered you about Bush, you must be furious over what Obama is doing to the military funding. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 20, 2009 7:12 PM:

" Mr4,
Concerning this :
"If you score on the left-end of the scale you are a liberal - like Ghandi. If you score on the right end of the scale you are a conservative - like Hitler."
I sure would love to know that teachers name, and short of that, I hoped you raised holy #@!! with the teacher and administration over that one. "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 20, 2009 7:42 PM:

" Mr.4
I don't believe you.

antipc:
How are the two, ROTC and GLBT, at all related? Do you want the public schools to promote tolerance? understanding? acceptance?
It's apples and oranges..
Like Ghandi and Hitler!

Sandra: The two memos released about the practice of waterboarding is enough to bother anyone about Bush. He is a war criminal. Waterboarding someone 186 times...Didn't work very well did it?

Sandra:
Young minds are just forming ideas in elementary school. Students come to 6th grade with a favorite candidate. They talk about them. Teachers hold mock elections. Teachers remain neutral. Issues are discussed. It wouldn't be silly to you if you had ever been in charge of these young inquiring, earnest minds. That's why we're neutral. We don't want to usurp their parents' guidance. It is not appropriate.
BTW: Don't assume you know anything about my level of understanding or awareness about revisionist history. You don't know me. But, we are watching Bush at work doing just that.

Sixth grade is middle school, Sandra. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 20, 2009 7:44 PM:

" Sandra,

My daughter was petrified of my raising hell with her teacher and administration because she feared retaliation! She was applying for colleges at the time and didn't want to get punished for expressing her opinion. She has seen other students suffer for expressing a conservative opinion. Can you imagine that?

Interestingly, this event occurred close to the date that our beloved Mike Thompson came on campus to speak to the students - explaining how the current stimulus bill would save our economy just the way FDR's New Deal saved us from the Depression! "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 20, 2009 8:01 PM:

" Sandra:
Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 20, 2009 8:50 PM:

" Sandra-

The report says nothing about average folks who have different views from the current administration. That was my point. This is about EXTREMISTS and hate groups that are using violent rhetoric. As the report clearly states these groups range from white supremacy, anti-government, or more focused social issues. You're cherry picking statements and taking them out of context. I agree its plain for all to see. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:08 PM:

" alacawanza,

You can believe what you want. My daughter is apolitical. She just thought it was funny. (ED: if you will allow, I am happy to name the teacher - the test can be found at www.politicalcompass.org)

As to your Godwin's law, what a bunch of useless junk.

The fact is that leftists are frequently trying to categorize conservatives with Nazis when in fact the opposite is true. The occasional skinhead - members of no decent political party - makes this possible.

Conservatism stands for the ideal of limited government and individual freedom. You cannot be more diametrically opposed from Fascism than that. Fascism stands for a totally controlling central government and virtually no individual freedom.

Here is a direct quote from Adolf Hitler: "

The unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual; and that the higher interests involved in the life of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests of the individual."

Draw your own conclusions. "

Raven wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:10 PM:

" "... you must be furious over what Obama is doing to the military funding. "

Sandra...military spending is up by about almost 20 billion in Obama's first budget. Bush last budget, for FY 2009, was about 515 billion, Obama's for FY 2010, is about 534 billion. So exactly what is he doing to the defense budget? "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:30 PM:

" Here is another tidbit I ran across recently - fascinating stuff:

"The collectivist and anti-individualist character of German National Socialism is not much modified by the fact that it is not a proletariat but a middle class socialism, and that is, in consequence, inclined in favor of the small artisan and shop keeper and to set the limit up to which it recognizes private property somewhat higher than does communism.

In the first instance, it will probably nominally recognize private property in general. But private initiative will probably be hedged about with restrictions on competition so that little freedom will remain. Artisans, shop-keepers and professional men will, in all likelihood, be organized in guilds, like those of the midiaeval crafts, which will regulate their activities.

In the case of the wealthier capitalists, state control and restriction of income will leave little more than the name of property, even while the intention of correcting the undue accumulation of wealth in the hands of the individuals has not yet been carried out..."

This was written by the Austrian F.A. Hayek in 1933 commenting on the rising Third Reich in Germany.

It gets scarier after that, but basically describes how statism turns into totalitarianism.

(Hayek Papers, box 105, folder 10, Hoover Institution Archives) "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:31 PM:

" Raven,

He is adding the cost of Iraq operations into the overall budget - it was a separate line item with Bush "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 20, 2009 10:28 PM:

" Alu: There is a flaw in your conclusions on waterboarding. You state

"The two memos released about the practice of waterboarding is enough to bother anyone about Bush. He is a war criminal. Waterboarding someone 186 times...Didn't work very well did it?"

Last time I checked we have not been attacked by terrorists since 911.

Second of all, while I am sure that waterboarding is not pleasant. It's not meant to be. However, not everyone agrees that it is torture.

Third of all, I wish you were as concerned for our young men and women serving in the military that were/are repeatedly defiled by the scourge that is/was locked up at GITMO.

Fourth of all, while you profess that teachers are neutral in schools, I don't believe you. I have seen and experienced otherwise. These people are not making up stories about teachers, perhaps you are truly unaware of the social agenda going on in our public schools or perhaps you are so indoctrinated that you can't decipher any longer the difference of an unbiased classroom. "

pharper wrote on Apr 20, 2009 10:50 PM:

" Sandra, I've never been afraid of challenging opinions. I recall a school debate (after reading The Great Gatsby) about whether or not cheating on a significant other was ever okay - my opinion on the matter was NOT the popular one - but my teachers never said a word. I have an Administration of Justice teacher (Tony Costa) with whom I've engaged in plenty of debates.

Besides, there aren't only liberals in my class. I have quite a few classmates who frequently and without shame express their (conservative) opinions on matters, and guess what? No negative repercussions. It's been that way throughout elementary school. I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience with public schools, but the fact remains that the "liberal public schools" are a myth. "

alucawanza wrote on Apr 20, 2009 11:44 PM:

" Mr4:
You missed the point of the godwin law.

Cab e-girl:
You say that waterboarding is not "pleasant." No it sure isn't. It's torture.
You don't know the level of my concern for the young men and women in the military. You don't know me at all. Personal attacks on people you don't know do not further your cause....whatever it might be.

I stand by my post about the neutrality of teachers. It is factual and truthful. There's an underlying second agenda with people who complain on and on about the schools. Mention teachers or schools, the hair rises on their necks, they grit their teeth, and carry on and on. I'm sorry you feel this way and can't help you. You profess such knowledge and experience about schools. You deny my experience with the word "indoctrinated." When you don't have facts on hand you carry on an ad hominem argument.

Well, I have the experience. The twenty-five years I spent teaching in the elementary classroom and the thirty-two years my husband taught at the high school give me a view you don't have. Concerned parents have always had our ear. Neither of us have ever known a teacher to cross the line and try to influence a students' political thinking. You are maligning an honorable profession.
You still don't believe me. It doesn't matter. I know the truth. "

wyngyrl wrote on Apr 21, 2009 4:37 AM:

" Dear Angelina, thank you for your article. I must confess that I did not pay much attention to the actual Tea Parties on April 15th. I had to work on that day, and I had already received my tax refund checks for the 2008 tax year. Also, my paycheck on April 15th was slightly larger due to the recent Obama tax cuts. So I need to do some research to find out exactly what pp were protesting - there seemed to be a wide range of issues according to the photos I have seen.

However, I would encourage you to research the tax situation a bit more. From where you stood on Main Street, you were within walking distance of a police station, a fire department, a free library, a courthouse, a jail, free public schools, a fairgrounds, and multiple city/county offices which regulate drinking water, safe building construction, workable sewers, and environmental safety. Your group stood on a paved sidewalk, next to a paved street with crosswalks and working traffic lights. All of these things are paid for with tax dollars. So I think you can see my point, that paying taxes is not all bad - there are many things in a civilized society which are provided through public contribution to government administered departments.

Perhaps when you're older you'll have the opportunity to visit other parts of the world. In Europe, you'll see citizens who pay a higher percentage of income taxes but who have shorter work weeks, generous vacation policies, paid health care, and old-age pensions. Their material standard of living is not as luxurious as in the US, but their way of life has many things to envy. 2B cont.... "

wyngyrl wrote on Apr 21, 2009 4:51 AM:

" Sorry, this is an essay not a comment! As I was saying .... On the other hand in developing or 3rd World countries, you will see inept governments resulting in children begging on the streets, contaminated drinking water, open sewers, corrupt police and justice systems, health care available only to the wealthy, polluted air, and non-existent urban planning. Walking into an American airport after a visit to one of those countries is an amazing experience - it has made me much less critical of our tax system and our government in general.

So, I hope you continue to stay active in public issues by contributing ideas and cooperating with differing viewpoints. It is very, very easy to fall into the constant criticism that many see as 'activism" but that does very little to help in difficult times. You are inheriting a country with many challenges, but if you make sure your taxes are used responsibly, you'll still have a very great place to live. Enjoy it! "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:11 AM:

" Alucawanza,
Is this reference to Goodwin's law an excuse for the teacher who compared conservatives to Hitler (as in “everyone does it“), or a put down of Mr4 for writing the word Hitler on a lengthy blog? "

Raven wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:13 AM:

" is that why he just went to a supplemental request Mr4 for afghan and Iraq operations.....?

No, the pentagon budget was bloated after 8 years of giving them everything they want, in major weapons systems and not giving them what bthey need, such as light effective body armor. The irony is now you hear GOP senators saying we can't ]eliminate anything becuase it will cost jobs...as they are saying govt spending doesn't create jobs. "

Raven wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:19 AM:

" cab-e-girl..

"Last time I checked we have not been attacked by terrorists since 911" ... you have a direct link that water-boarding is the reason we have not had an attack?

"Second of all, while I am sure that water-boarding is not pleasant. It's not meant to be. However, not everyone agrees that it is torture. " Whether everyone agrees or not, it is against both US law, executive order and international law - and doing it nearly 200 times on one person, I think most people would say that is torture. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:22 AM:

" Raven,
Obabama's militery budget....where to begin?
I think it would impact you more if you read it for yourself.
Check this out...
BLANKLEY: Obama's defense budget mystery
Is the knife being put to the sword?
By Tony Blankley | Wednesday, February 4, 2009


granted, since this article, He did increase the budget some, but if you want a clearer picture read this :

http://www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/PubLibrary/R.20080821.US_Defense_Budget_/R.20080821.US_Defense_Budget_.pdf

An excerpt, for you, from the beginning of chapter one:

"In addition, the 2009 request includes $66 billion in emergency supplemental appropriations for defense, as a partial down-payment on 2009 war-related costs.
Eventually, additional 2009 funding — of at least tens of billions of dollars — will haveto be provided to cover war-related costs for the full year."

66 billion in supplements is a lot more than 20 billion (the figures I have seen, as opposed to your 34 billion) Obama has increeased the budget.
So it would seem to follow that there has been a 46 billion CUT using my figures, and a 32 billion CUT using yours. Either way it is a CUT at a time our military is already UNDER funded. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:24 AM:

" wyngyrl,
FYI, The tax refunds you recieved this year were under the BUSH refunds. Obama's proposals will kick in NEXT year. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:27 AM:

" Raven,
Eyesight not so good here so early in the morning....I got your figures wrong. Thought your 534 billion was $34 billion. So in actuality it is even less using your figures. "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:31 AM:

" Alu- Thank for your thoughtful post. No I don't know what your concern level is for the men and women in the military, I don't recall ever seeing a post from you that mentions what happens to our soldiers when they are captured or what the GITMO prisoners do to their guards.
The AP ON GITMO"
"Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners."

My concern is for our military personnel and their families while we are at war, not the prisoners.

As to your stance on teacher neutrality, obviously nothing I or anybody else says is going to change your mind. I assure you the only agenda that I have as a parent is the complete education of our children. California schools rank somewhere in the bottom 47? The level of education students are coming out of California high schools with is alarming. Couple that with the drop out rate and I think we can all agree that our schools are failing our children. Something has to change. As a teacher, I hope that you have the courage to make a difference.

I have seen some great teachers doing a phenomenal job in thankless classes. I don't believe that any of us are maligning your honorable profession. Bringing up valid criticisms in a failing school system is not meant to be a personal attack on you or any other teacher. We want to see change in the poor quality of education California students are receiving. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:32 AM:

" wyngyrl;

Your sweet but myopic essay on public works misstates the point of the protest. Nobody was promoting anarchy and a complete absence of government. We all value our police, fire department, etc. and are more than happy to pay the bill.

The protest was about the apparent abandonment of the system of government that supported the creation of the greatest economy on earth. With the government recklessly putting future generations into crippling debt, nationalizing our private enterprises, and running rough-shod over the Rule of Law, we simply do not want to become a Third World country.

And using the European socialist democracies as a role model is romantic fantasy. Yes, there are some beautiful places in Europe - I have traveled and done business there frequently - but the average European lives a rather dreary and menial life. They have very little upward mobility compared to Americans, their productivity (hence, their standard of living) is about half as high as in the United States, and they are regulated to death with their nanny-state governments.

One can live a casual European-style life here in the United States if one pleases. You simply have to accept the lower standard of living. But in America, unlike in Europe, you have a choice to do better.

We just want to keep it that way. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:52 AM:

" One of the problems with the adoration of anyone is that people who hold the adoration no longer question and take things at face value.

I questioned President Bush, and I will continue to question President Obama. Of course this could now get me into trouble with homeland security, but I guess I will have to take my chances.

Those who think the military budget has increased are taking things at Obama's word and at face value. The quit questioning when their Hero took over.
They are even giving him credit for last years tax refunds, when he was not even President during that tax year.
They are ok with Obama's homeland security focus, but were extremely vocal when Bush tightened things up after 9/11 with the Patriot act.

So tell me, how do you all rationalize this behavior? How did that part of you that question get turned off so easily? Is it really that you just love yourself some Obama so much that your thinking process is clouded by his aura?
If that is the case we are all in big trouble. "

misfit wrote on Apr 21, 2009 9:15 AM:

" Sandra..."Early"...you must have banker's hours. "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 21, 2009 11:44 AM:

" I'm sorry, what course of action has Homeland security stated it will do that makes it comparable to the Patriot Act? "

Raven wrote on Apr 21, 2009 11:57 AM:

" Again....excluding supplements the budget went up....534 is more than 515 by any body's math; 19 billion more in spending; now to get that figure programs were cut, programs that by any rational basis were either not needed, not working or over-budget, as well as reductions in the expense of Iraq.

So, if you want to argue that Obama is decimating defense...cite a program that Sec Gates recommended be cut and tell us why it shouldn't be cut or reduced.....because on overall defense spending policy I think you and I will continue to disagree.

So, let us talk specifics. "

wyngyrl wrote on Apr 21, 2009 12:19 PM:

" Sandra, the tax cut I referred to was a result of the Stimulus Plan signed into law by President Obama in February 2009. It included payroll and income tax cuts for families/singles effective April 1st, 2009. See Fox News, CBS, or Associated press for the details. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2009 12:34 PM:

" Hear ye,
You are correct, the patriot act was much easier on our average citizens than this homeland security document is. I stand corrected. After all, after reading the report I come away with the feeling we are a country chock full of domestic terrorists. In the report under "scope" it says,
"(U//FOUO) This product is one of a series of intelligence assessments published by the Extremism and Radicalization Branch to facilitate a greater understanding of the
phenomenon of violent radicalization in the United States. The information is
provided to federal, state, local, and tribal counterterrorism and law enforcement officials so they may effectively deter, prevent, preempt, or respond to terrorist attacks
against the United States. Federal efforts to influence domestic public opinion must be conducted in an overt and transparent manner, clearly identifying United States
Government sponsorship."

And then later on it identifies those who think as I do as right wing radicals.
Aside from me, it targets military veterens, it targets those who believe in the right to life, etc.
Yep, we are all a bunch of right wing scarry terrorists who need to be watched.
The patriot act did not threaten us right wing crazies in the way it should....good to know our government has the focus NOW where it needs to be. Everyone can sleep a bit safer now knowing that the government is keeping an eye on the likes of me, our veterans, and those who believe in the sanctuty of life..... "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2009 12:36 PM:

" wyngirl,
our taxes we got back were from 2008. That was my point...you said you were spending the money you got. You have not yet received that money. "

Hear ye wrote on Apr 21, 2009 2:03 PM:

" Sandra-

Round and round we go. I don't see anything in the report to support your claims. My point was the patriot act included actions such as eavesdropping communications and library books etc. One can argue that is an attack on our civil liberties. The Homeland security report is a warning about a rise in Extremists with no such mention of patriot acts controversial actions being used in this instance. "

wyngyrl wrote on Apr 21, 2009 2:24 PM:

" Sandra, just to clarify: I filed a tax return in March 2009 for wages and taxes paid in 2008. Because I am currently able to "write off" my mortgage interest, I did in fact receive a refund from taxes which were deducted from my earnings in 2008. I use those refunded dollars to pay my Napa County property tax, so it's about an even trade. The paycheck I received on April 15th included $15.00 extra, which is a result of the Stimulus Package approved by President Obama. I will most likely spend my extra $30 per month on food, gas, and household necessities. The Obama administration may reduce my mortgage deduction in the future. I understand that sacrifices have to be made in order for our country to recover from the current economic disaster. Unless pp stop squabbling, criticising, yelling, and undermining each other that recovery may not happen. "

post-it wrote on Apr 21, 2009 4:39 PM:

" Taxing and spending happens on both sides of our political fence. The problem I see is that whenever there is some issue, a knee-jerk reaction by politicians trys to create a "solution". Most of these "solutions" have no sunset and get piled one upon the other. Politicians rarely get elected unless they promise a chicken in every pot, and they don't get re-elected unless they bring home the bacon. Remember that next time you cast your ballot.

For every tax cut or reduction in revenue, there must be either a reduction in service or a different source of income. Unfortunately, since the inception of the country we have been borrowing - did you know that in 1791 our national dept was 75 million!

source: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo1.htm "

steph wrote on Apr 21, 2009 5:02 PM:

" I went looking for information about Gavin Newsom's affair and found this little article in the SFChron archive, and it's just an example of the sorts of idiocy that drives this taxpayer bananas:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/08/BAT4RER742.DTL&hw=your+black+muslim+bakery+cadillac&sn=002&sc=463

Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums and Rep. Barbara Lee of Oakland found themselves in the unwelcome spotlight this week over the letters of support they wrote on behalf of the notorious Your Black Muslim Bakery, but they aren't the only politicos who have supported the group over the years.

Within three months, the group had burned through $275,000 without turning out a single graduate.

They did, however, spend $650 a month to lease a Cadillac.

Another $44,000 supposedly went to consulting fees, $10,500 went for security and $7,500 for advertising on a local cable station, where then-leader Yusuf Bey had a weekly TV show.

When asked to explain what was going on, the Black Muslim Bakery cadre - in one of their typical tactics - marched in unison from the bakery to City Hall, then entered the council chambers like a precision drill team, lining up along the room's back walls.

They then asked for another $70,000 to keep the project going.

And they got it, with the council voting 6-2 to grant the funds - minus the money for the Cadillac. "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 21, 2009 5:05 PM:

" wyngrl-

thank you for paying for my mortage. By the way your tax cuts will be taxable income for next years taxes.

You cannot fix any problem by throwing money at. That is guaranteed failure!

Why weren't the bonuses for the failed Freddie and Fannie objected to by the Administration? Anyone? "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:19 PM:

" Raven- To answer your question "you have a direct link that water-boarding is the reason we have not had an attack?"

I'll start with good ol fashioned common sense and it appears as those in the Obama administration is going to back me up on this.

From the New York Times
"WASHINGTON - President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday." "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 22, 2009 1:30 AM:

" Left out of Cab-egirls post:

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security." "

Raven wrote on Apr 22, 2009 6:56 AM:

" again...does he say that information gotten through water-boarding stopped any attack...no, what the intelligence community has said is that the information confirmed they who planned the 9/11 attack.

But regardless of that....torture is still torture....and we have to decide if we can casually toss our value to the curb in the name of expediency. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 22, 2009 7:44 AM:

" Raven,
You are seriously making the argument that the Military budget went up by EXCLUDING the supplements ? How do you rationalize that in any way? Sorry, you do not get to exclude supplements when looking at the total budget. Those supplements became part of the budget when they were given to the military. Obama has already clearly stated that there will be no supplements as he wants everything to be budgeted for all to see.
In light of that there has been a very large CUT to our Military under Obama. This concerns me, as I am a military mom, and my son will be over there, fighting for you, and me, and everyone in this country with LESS then our military had under BUSH.
It bothers me that you seem to be so cavalier with my son's life. It bothers me that you stick to your erroneous beliefs with the facts staring you right in the face.
The info. I told you to read said that Bush wanted for the military, 66 billion in supplements for 2009 and that ADDITIONAL monies would also be needed before the year was up so that the military could meet its needs in the middle east.
Yet Obama cuts the funding by 46 billion by not allowing supplements, not even taking into account the additional monies cited in the report.
Is there waste in the military? Sure, but the waste in this government runs rampant throughout. Eliminating wasteful programs, and cutting the budget are two different things. And you are ok with cutting the floor out from those risking their lives for this country, yet say nothing about the other areas that are sickeningly wasteful? "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 22, 2009 10:13 AM:

" Hear Ye: I'll let you explain that to those loved ones left behind in future terrorist attacks. "

Hear ye wrote on Apr 22, 2009 1:19 PM:

" Oh I'm sorry Cab-e-girl, for now on we'll just use the quotes from Admiral Blair that fit your agenda. "

Raven wrote on Apr 22, 2009 2:33 PM:

" I did sandra and and I also said..what programs did Gates cut that you think should have been kept on the books and why?...

as for you son....other than a lower spending level for the entire DOD, exactly what cuts will affect him and how...it is time we stopped dealing in platitudes and deal with facts.....after 13 years in the military I have a first hand knowledge of how money is wasted and I have never said there wasn't...but I also know that the military has never seen a weapon system it didn't like and needs to be reined in...and my concern is personal as well ... my nephew is serving on the USS Bainbridge, involved in the anti-piracy patrol.

Bush used the supplemental as a way to disguise the true cost of the war... and Obama not using them so far, excpet to augment the last Bush budget, is a positive siign for it gives us an idea of the true costs involved.

So again, give us a specific program and ... "

Tinamac wrote on Apr 22, 2009 2:59 PM:

" Angelina Gervasio ..... Your parents must be proud of you to a point of absurdity! You are an amazing and talented, hard working, GREAT AMERICAN! I have a feeling you will make it big as a journalist as you grow into your obvious talent. I'm amazed at some of the comments on here and just awestruck at your poise in your responses, keep up the good fight young lady! "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 22, 2009 4:46 PM:

" a teacher, hear ye, bauhausfan, and others please read.......,

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Like it or not, that is what we were doing. Excercising a right written down a couple hundred and a half years ago. Funny how well it still works. "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 22, 2009 5:14 PM:

" Freeport-

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 18, 2009 3:24 PM:I'm glad this group of like-minded individuals got out and held a protest. I hope these same people will no longer dismiss all protest from people of opposing views as a bunch of lazy people who should be at work instead of "whining" in the streets.

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 18, 2009 8:20 PM:I was sincere when I said I was glad that Conservatives held a rally/protest. I'm even happier that they enjoyed themselves. For far too long they spent more time criticizing people for exercising this particular First Amendment right. I hope in the future they will argue the issue at hand rather than ripping people apart for taking the time out of their day to be a voice for an issue they feel passionate about.

So what was it you were saying? Do you read what others write or just clump together names of people you typically disagree with and try to make some point that no one is debating about? "

cab e-girl wrote on Apr 22, 2009 7:32 PM:

" Hear Ye: My reason for posting only part of the article was for two reasons
1. Post fact only.
2. Save space.

From Admiral Blair “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

This is HIS opinion, not mine nor is it the opinion of many other security experts. "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 22, 2009 9:03 PM:

" The whole thing but this line in particular I feel is important in the context of the overall quote:

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night.


This could qualify as fact only. No? "

Sandra wrote on Apr 22, 2009 9:04 PM:

" Raven,
You dodged the responsibility of your misstatement by turning it back on me. You mispoke when you said Obama increased the military funding when he did not. He cut it. Acknowledge you were mistaken, wrong, incorrect, mispoke, etc., and then we can move on to how the military should spend the smaller amount of money it will be receiving under Obama's presidency.
Personally, I can think of many things that should be cut before the military is even touched. The men and woman who put their lives on the line should be our first priority. They do not have what they need now, and you think taking money away will get them what they need? "

Raven wrote on Apr 22, 2009 10:11 PM:

" No Sandra...534 billion is more then 515... the math is quite simple.
One reductions is as the troops in Iraq are drawn down, the expense for Iraq goes down too ... so you don't need the accounting trick of a supplemental and you can wrap it into the entire budget.

but you still haven't said 1) what programs that are being cut you don't want cut or shouldn't be cut and 2) how these cuts impact the US defense. Smart spending will outperform total spending just about every time and after years of an open purse string, it looks like we may have some smart spending in regards to defense.

Tell us what those programs are that the troops need that are being denied. What don't they have? "

littlered56 wrote on Apr 22, 2009 10:48 PM:

" Angelina, I think you you have written a fine article. You great writing skills and Ihope you will kee it up
I hope one day you will interview people of all parties to see what and what they beleive in,,all parties both Rpublicans and Demd an Peace and freedon.unitarian,all of them You would have a lot of eduction and knowledge to go over and learn from
I hate to think a young girl like yourself would go to one small protest for a few hours and come away with your mind all made up with just the hearsay of others,
Severl presidents have written some very good books you might learn from. Presidents wives have also written some good books to look in to. Womans suffeerage and the fight to vote are awesome learning materials.

president Obama inhearant this was and the tax biloutsourcountry is in a lot of trouble and not many people are helping they rather just degrade him nd fault every thing he tries to do
But I still beleive i my country and in hope' "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 23, 2009 6:14 AM:

" I suggest that anyone who still doubts that we have a liberal school systrm watch Harry POtter and The Order Of The Pheonix. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 23, 2009 6:38 AM:

" "" Hear Ye: My reason for posting only part of the article was for two reasons
1. Post fact only.
2. Save space.

From Admiral Blair “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

This is HIS opinion, not mine nor is it the opinion of many other security experts. ""

Cabegirl-You chose the Admiral as an authoritative source in your original quote. To cherry pick what you agree with as fact and what doesn't support your argument as MERE opinion is intellectually dishonest and beneath you.

freeport-I never said you don't have a right to protest. I have state my opinion about your protest, which is MY 1st amendment right. "

sandra wrote on Apr 23, 2009 9:39 AM:

" Math 101....... simple basic math. When Bush does it everyone gets it, even those who support Bush. But when Obama does it, and says the total is something else, those who love themselves some Obama, say , "Yea, thats the ticket." Not because it is the truth, but because Obama says so.
Lets take the Obama figures, and lets take the Bush figures and do some basic math, shall we?
Military Budget Under Bush:
Bush proposed Miltary Budget equals 515 billion, PLUS 66 billion in supplements EQUALS, 581 Billion, PLUS, and an unidentified amount proposed before the year ends, EQUALS 581 billion and MORE.
Obama budget, 534 billion Plus...oh how about zip zero nada zilch, EQUALS 534 billion.
Two numbers, 581 billion plus, and 534 billion.
Which is the larger number?

Yet Raven insists the Obama military budget is bigger. I have explained now 3 times, yet because Obama SAYS his budget is bigger....well I think we all get the drift.

There is a difference in cutting wasteful programs within the military (which needs to be done), and cutting the overall money given to the military. The first saves money the military could spend more wisely, and needs for our soldiers fighting in the middle east.....though I am pretty certain they will still need more. The second gives the military less money period.
How is giving the Military less money, when it needs more money to achieve its goals using good sense?
But the argument that the Military budget under Obama is bigger, makes no sense already.
I think I have had a lightbulb moment...The lack of logic from the Obama camp kind of makes this a futile discussion. "

sandra wrote on Apr 23, 2009 10:18 AM:

" For those interested in what our military needs to stay strong for our countries future safety, here is a link:

http://armed-services.senate.gov/statemnt/2007/April/Krepinevich%2004-17-07.pdf

Raven you ask for specifics on what the military needs because, I suspect, you like simple answers. This is not a simple problem.
Our ground troops need equpment in good working order, we need more ground troops period, and better trained ones. We have overextended our forces, and may soon reach a breaking point. We need fresh, well trained troops. Are we going to acheive that by cutting the military budget? Highly unlikely.
We need better intelligence, at a time when our intelligence gatherers are feeling threatened by their own country.
I worry, will my son's tour in the middle east working in intelligence gain him the respect of our country, or will he be accused of torture?
We need to continue to develop good weapon systems, and understand that while things like the predator drone may cost a lot of money, it keeps ground troops safer by just being a threat. The military has been flying them on fewer missions due to lack of funding.
I could go on, but it is a very long list, and contains no simple answer. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 23, 2009 11:23 AM:

" " I suggest that anyone who still doubts that we have a liberal school systrm watch Harry POtter and The Order Of The Pheonix. "


Are you saying that all muggles are liberals? "

Raven wrote on Apr 23, 2009 12:01 PM:

" sandra.....as I said, smart spending out performs just throwing money at the issue any day......for example, the cuts made by gates will allow us to have more troops, because the budget includes money for high personal levels., it allows for more body armor and armor for vehicles.....(btw...double check the items included in that supplemental spending....you will find a few lil items that have nothing to do with the defense spending)

So what programs would you cut in the defense department to deal with that waste? Should we continue to buy F-22's or upgrade our F-16 fleet...and what about the F-35?

Should we build more Sea Wolf Class submarines or move on to the Virginia class...Gates is shifting the navy to fewer massive ships, costing billions to more lower cost, smaller vessels that are able to operate in shallower waters than say, my nephew's destroyer, vessels more suited to say, chasing pirates than most of our current fleet....and what about the number of C-17 cargo aircraft to move troops like your sun around and keep them supplied...or should we buy more C-17's or procure more C-130J's, an air frame designed in the 50s....

And should we make more abrams tanks, not exactly suited for urban warfare designed for open land tank v tank battles, or go with a more streamlined, flexible Stryker type vehicles.

The senate report reflects a different defense philosophy and things have changed a bit since 2007 when the report was issued. "

sandra wrote on Apr 23, 2009 12:47 PM:

" Raven,
The needs of the ground troops have not changed significantly. As to weapon systems and equipment, that is not an area I have enough knowledge to discuss, other than knowing the equipment is falling apart and not being maintained due to lack of well trained troops and funding. And knowing that drone missions have been cut in about half, due to lack of funding.
You and I disagree on this principle. You think by cutting the budget and using what money the military has more wisely will solve the problem. I think that cutting the budget and expecting the military to instantaniouskly use less money in a wiser manner is cutting the floor out from under our soldiers who are risking their lives for a country that does not appreciate what they do, as evidenced by cutting the funding to them.
The needs of a better trained ground force, in larger numbers has not changed. The needs of that ground force to have working equipment has not changed. The need to protect our military as best we can has not changed. If we are flying less drone missions, which are an excellent deterent to terrorist attacks, then our troops are at more risk. We both agree that there is waste in the military. But you seem to think that a huge military bureacracy can be fixed at no risk to our troops, so that other bureacracies can have a bigger piece of the pie. I disagree.
We are bailing out big business, who created their own situation through greed, at the cost of the best our country has to offer, our military personel. "

Raven wrote on Apr 23, 2009 1:34 PM:

" That lack of funding Sandra was in bush's budget and is to be increased in this budget ... the Air Force wants more manned fighters because flying a glorified model aircraft does not the image of a fighter jock make.

I have never said there was no waste and never said we needed to put our troops at risk in cuts, but I have read the budget proposal, (that was about 6 pots of coffee) and I agree with Gates' premise that we need smart spending.

So take a close look at the budget and we can talk because the devil is in the details and smart spending is what we need not just throwing more money and by cutting programs that 1) don't work; 2) aren't needed; or 3) are too expensive, we can bring give the troops the support they need. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 23, 2009 3:18 PM:

" Raven,
I do not disagree that we need to cut uneeded expenses. What I think you miss seeing is that a bureacracy cannot just make a 180 without the bottom of the bureacracy paying the price. Our troops need the extra funds that were proposed. You can still put in the programs proposed that you agree with, without cutting the funding. MY point is that you are putting your hopes in a bureacracy doing something swiftly and properly. I think that is foolish. I think our military could use all the funds it can get to implement the programs it needs to keep our ground troops as safe as possible. As I pointed out, things are already being cut that helped with the safety of the ground troops due to lack of funds. That will continue to happen. I am pretty sure that things in Iraq will escalate as we take more troops out and shift them to Afghanistan. Those left in Iraq are going to need all the help they can get.
As for this, "That lack of funding Sandra was in bush's budget and is to be increased in this budget ... " Raven , you really have a problem with admitting you were wrong/ mistaken/ whatever. With the supplements in the Bush budget it adds up to a significant amount more than Obama's budget. Bush supplemented the military budget last year, the year before, etc. He did it differently than Obama, perhaps because he understood how washington works, and Obama is less experienced? Regardless, his budget was significantly bigger when all was said and done. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Apr 23, 2009 3:19 PM:

" teacher-
Did you watch it? Because what you just said makes absolutely no sense. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 23, 2009 3:32 PM:

" Actually, I read the book (and saw the movie-several times, my daughters are your age). I was teasing.

However, I did not get you comment. What does a fictional school for wizards have to do with liberal or conservative schools? "

Raven wrote on Apr 23, 2009 5:24 PM:

" sandra...there is a reason I won't admit I am wrong... it is still quite simple...534 billion is still more than 515. You say things are being cut the troops need to be safe but you have yet to give us one example. So tell us one area, you may be surprised, I might agree with you that that item needs more funding ... but the last thing we need to do if give unrestrained spending to the military...because we could never afford it all. "

Justhefacts wrote on Apr 23, 2009 5:48 PM:

" Facts? Hear Ye???? Laughable!! "

Hear Ye wrote on Apr 23, 2009 8:31 PM:

" Justthefacts-

I don't have any idea what you're talking about but thanks or no thanks depending on what you're referring too. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 23, 2009 9:20 PM:

" Raven,
I suggest you read my posts again, but pay attention this time. I gave examples (predator drone, poor equipment in need of repair, troops not trained as well as they should be, etc.)and the figures are not 515, and 534, but 534 and 581.
OK? If you do not get it by now, you never will. I am done. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 24, 2009 8:04 AM:

" Hear Ye,
I think Justhefacts was referring to your post of
"Apr 22, 2009 9:03 PM:". As the statement you quoted is not a fact, but an opinion. It is certainly a "fact" that the Admiral gave his opinion, but the statement is the Admiral's opinion, and is not a proven fact. "

Raven wrote on Apr 24, 2009 8:19 AM:

" Sandra, I addressed the drones, the current funding for those falling under Bush's budget and which is increased under Obama's...but if you don't want to deal with facts...your choice, not mine. "

sandra wrote on Apr 24, 2009 8:40 AM:

" Thank goodness we have cut the funding to our military so the John Murtha airport can receive its stimulas package. "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 24, 2009 10:16 AM:

" Dan-

I am sorry you did not post my response to Littlered56. His\her information is historically inaccurate and I called him\her on it. additionally, I suggested that doing better research might give him\her a better understanding of real history. "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Apr 24, 2009 11:01 AM:

" Freeport56:
Never received your comment, please repost
--Dan "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 24, 2009 11:54 AM:

" dan-

thank you I did not know, will do. "

funnyme wrote on Apr 24, 2009 1:30 PM:

" teacher,
You are probably right about that, Santa Cruz county is well known for their liberal approach (USCS is catching up with Berkeley pretty quick), however, I do believe there is a 'subliminal' liberal curriculum at least in CA public schools.

Guess what we're having for dinner tonight?
Yep, that delicious soup you were kind enough to share the recipe with me. Thanks! "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 24, 2009 1:43 PM:

" 56: If you want some truly outstanding presidential books, suggest "No More Vietnams" and "Seize the Moment".

Think what you will of the man (and I am sure you Woodward and Bernstein drones will), he was a brilliant writer. The first book is relevant to Iraq and Afganistan and the latter book is particularly on-point as it pertains to today's discussions about socialism and totalitarianism. "

sandra wrote on Apr 24, 2009 1:58 PM:

" Raven,
That's 1 thing outof 5 or 6 I mentioned. You are the one not dealing with reality when you insist the budget is what you say it is, and the reality is something completely different. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 24, 2009 2:23 PM:

" Author was Richard Nixon "

Raven wrote on Apr 24, 2009 5:49 PM:

" The reality is 534 is more than 515.

and funnyme...if it is subliminal...how did you notice it? "

funnyme wrote on Apr 24, 2009 6:17 PM:

" Raven,
Not only 'cause I'm smart...but 'cause we, right wing extremists are always looking into vast conspiracy theories...unlike some, to us "waterboarding" is not torture, just "enhanced interrogation" with desirable results that accomplish the mission. "

Raven wrote on Apr 24, 2009 11:24 PM:

" again...if it is subliminal, then you cannot notice it...if you notice it, it is not subliminal.

And while you may not think water-boarding is torture...the law, both US and International says otherwise.

The ends always justify the means, funnyme? For everyone or just the US? "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 25, 2009 8:51 AM:

" How to Achieve Socialism
by Jacob G. Hornberger

Have you ever wondered how countries such as Cuba, North Korea, and China became completely socialist? It’s really not a mystery. Government officials, most of whom suffer from an insatiable thirst for power, seize upon some human tragedy or disaster and tell the people, “If you will just give us power over your lives and fortunes, we will take care of you and protect you from harm.” The citizenry, many of whom live lives of fear and insecurity, cannot pass up the bargain. What could be better than to be take care of by a paternalistic state and protected from the bad things that life presents?


Sound familiar?????

Newspapers failing, Fairness Doctrine coming back, and the CyberSecurity Act
giving the President the Power to shut down portions of the Internet. thought provoking isn't it? "

misfit wrote on Apr 25, 2009 9:16 PM:

" Torture does NOT work! Prove that it has.
Then prove that it doesn't put our country and our service men and women at increased risk as well. "

Raven wrote on Apr 26, 2009 12:00 AM:

" Freeport, in China and Cuba it was a revolution by those outside the government and seizing power...and in North Korea the communist govt was installed by the USSR and China as part of the peace agreements that ended WWII, when Korea was taken from the Japanese and divided by the allies. "

funnyme wrote on Apr 26, 2009 6:35 AM:

" ...well, some of us are willing to "see" it and consider it, and some just can't bring themselves to even think of such possibility.
I guess it takes time and the willingness to look back to your own childhood then look to our children's and compare.

From Wikipedia:
A subliminal message is a signal or message embedded in another medium, 'designed to pass below the normal limits of the human mind's perception'. These messages are unrecognizable by the conscious mind, but in certain situations 'can affect the subconscious mind and can negatively or positively influence subsequent later thoughts, behaviors, actions, attitudes, belief systems and value systems'. "

Raven wrote on Apr 26, 2009 8:58 AM:

" "These messages are unrecognizable by the conscious mind...."

"designed to pass below the normal limits of the human mind's perception"

again, if you see the 'message....it isn't subliminal. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 26, 2009 10:12 AM:

" Raven, I believe you misunderstood Free[port's point. He said "COMPLETELY" socialist. One those grab power, they have to have an agenda to KEEP power. "

Raven wrote on Apr 26, 2009 12:07 PM:

" this is his statement sandra..

"Government officials, most of whom suffer from an insatiable thirst for power, seize upon some human tragedy or disaster and tell the people,...."

The revolutions he mentioned all came from sources outside the government .... who made no pretense of what they planned to do once in power "

buddyboy wrote on Apr 26, 2009 6:59 PM:

" Where were these people during the Bush years? We squander a surplus and used phony accounting to minimize the deficient. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 27, 2009 9:32 AM:

" Raven,
In the case of China, there was no government in power, just a series of civil wars trying to win and establish a government period. When the communists finally won, their true agenda did not emerge until a couple of years later. Yet there certainly was a population in crisis, that believed the communists would save them. The reality after a couple of years is there for us all to see.
The communists represented themselves as one thing to gain power, and after a couple of years when they were well established, the truth emerged.
They certainly had "Pretense".
And you still miss the point of his post. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 27, 2009 9:51 AM:

" Raven,
As for Cuba, you are not quite correct either. While Castro did fight in the revolution, and orchestrated much of it, he was not the one who headed the new government. A brief synopsis on Castro can be found in Wikpedia. Pay close attention to the sections on the "New government", and "Castro consolidates power". In the newly established government, Castro was head of the military, and rose from within the new government to hold the power he came to hold.

"Government officials, most of whom suffer from an insatiable thirst for power, seize upon some human tragedy or disaster and tell the people,...." "

JimClark wrote on Apr 27, 2009 11:33 AM:

" I continue to have a Tea-bag hanging off my rearview mirror and tuck one in the collar button-hole of my shirt.

Don't let THEM forget. "

Raven wrote on Apr 27, 2009 12:18 PM:

" Sandra, Mao took control of China in 1949 after a civil war between his communist forces and the nationalist Chinese, led by Chiang kai shek, who was the leader of the Chinese government recognized by the rest of the world and who even had one of the permanent seats on the security council when it was first established...So the Mao revolution did come from those outside the government and Mao was known as a communist from the beginning opf his struggle, so there was no surprise what he and his party intended to do once taking power.

As for Castro, Fidel Castro came to power as a result of the Cuban revolution that overthrew the U.S.-backed dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista, and shortly thereafter, after ousting Cordona, became Prime Minister of Cuba. In 1960 he angered the US by nationalizing billions of dollars of foreign owned businesses. In 1965 he became First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba and led the transformation of Cuba into a one-party socialist republic. In 1976 he became President of the Council of State as well as of the Council of Ministers. He also held the supreme military rank of Comandante en Jefe ("Commander in Chief") of the Cuban armed forces. (thanks to wiki)
And again this was a revolution brought from outside they established govt, sandra and set into place after the group seized power. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 27, 2009 1:01 PM:

" Raven,
Thank you for agreeing with my point about Cuba and Castro. He started out as head of the military, and he moved up the ranks from the newly established government, and in a year plus became the main power. Things were not as the people hoped, when the revolution first happenned, as Castro proceeded to remove anyone who thought differently from him.
Castro did not come from outside the government to seize power. He rose up from the NEW government, and took power.
Raven, my husband teaches Asian history and you do not seem to have enough background to understand that while the nationalist chinese were recognized, they were not a stable government. They were only in power for about 4 or 5 years, and controlled no more than half of China with any authority. The nationalists and the communists worked TOGETHER which is how Chang kai Shek took control. When he then turned against the Communists, civil war broke out again. So there really was no stability, since the communists and the nationalists worked TOGETHER to gain control, and then began arguing amongst themeselevs. While Chang Kai Shek was the leader, civil war again broke out between the two factions of the government. China had been in turmoil due to civil war for quite a while, and the people believed that the communists would be better, until reality set in.
So while I know you have your unique perspective, as evidenced in discussions on other subjects you and I have had, I would again stand behind Freeports words as a correct view, and your words are yours alone. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 27, 2009 1:05 PM:

" Raven,

Look at what you are doing here. You are expending great effort trying to show how past totalitarian regimes can be distinguished from our present government, yet you seem blind to the similarities.

I would like to see you differentiate how Lenin, Mussolini, Hitler, Chavez, Tito and Franco came to power.

Maybe then you will recognize what we are talking about. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 27, 2009 1:43 PM:

" Mr4
You said it, and I would have to agree. Can't see the forest through the trees comes to mind..... "

Raven wrote on Apr 27, 2009 4:00 PM:

" sandra I have a hunch that if I said the sun came up in the east you would disagree....but if I am factually wrong, please int it out.

Re castro, Raul Castro, not Fidel, was appointed Minister of the Revolutionary Armed Forces when the Ministry was founded in October 1959 and served in that capacity until February 2008.

Chiang split with the Communists in 1927 after the Shanghai massacre, became the Chinese government in 1928 by the tactic of being the last to survive. Chiang forced the Communists to withdraw from their bases in southern and central China into the mountains in the Long March. Out of the 86,000 Communist soldiers that broke out of the pocket, only 20,000 would make the 10,000 km march to Shaanxi province.

He had loose cooperation with the Communists during the Japanese invasion and occupation, from 1937 to 45, but after the defeat of Japan, the cooperation ceased and Mao began the 4-years struggle to take over...but Mao was not consider part of the Chines government until after defeating Chiang in 1949.


Have a nice Monday. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 27, 2009 4:20 PM:

" Raven,
as long as you are in error, I will continue to correct you. FYI, from Wikpedia, and verifiable in any decent history text:
"On January 8, 1959, Castro's army rolled victoriously into Havana. As news of the fall of Batista's government spread through Havana, The New York Times described the scene as one of jubilant crowds pouring into the streets and automobile horns honking. The black and red flag of the 26th of July Movement waved on automobiles and buildings. The atmosphere was chaotic. Castro called a general strike in protest of the Piedra government. He demanded that Dr. Urrutia, former judge of the Urgency Court of Santiago de Cuba, be installed as the provisional President instead. The Cane Planters Association of Cuba, speaking on behalf of the island's crucial sugar industry, issued a statement of support for Castro and his movement.
Law professor José Miró Cardona created a new government with himself as prime minister and Manuel Urrutia Lleó as president on January 5. The United States officially recognized the new government two days later Castro himself arrived in Havana to cheering crowds and assumed the post of Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces on January 8.
Elections were supposed to be held within months."
Please pay special attention to the second to last sentence. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 27, 2009 4:30 PM:

" In addition, regarding China from ask .com:
"Chiang Kai-shek was one of the most important political leaders in 20th century Chinese history, sandwiched between Sun Yat-sen and Mao Zedong. Early in the 20th century Chiang Kai-shek fought for Sun Yat-sen's United Revolutionary League and the Kuomintang party to overthrow China's imperial dynasty. The Republic of China was established in 1912, but by the end of the 1920s the Kuomintang split with the Communists (led by Mao Zedong) . After the death of Sun Yat-sen, Chiang became the leader of the Kuomintang army and seized control of the government. Still engaged in a civil war with the Communists, Generalissimo Chiang also led the army against Japanese invaders in Manchuria (1937). During World War II Chiang had the support of the Allied powers and was the supreme commander of the China theater for the length of the war, the acknowledged leader of a war-torn and impoverished China. After World War II ended, the Kuomintang and the Communists re-ignited the civil war, and Chiang was eventually driven off the mainland to the island of Taiwan (1949), where the Kuomintang set up a government-in-exile."
This supports what I said about China being war torn and uncontrolled with any authority from the government as it was in continued turmoil with previous factions (the communists)which helped bring the government to power. In other words, factions within the government were not getting along, as I said. Hence the civil war. Oh and fyi the sun sets in the west. "

Raven wrote on Apr 27, 2009 5:48 PM:

" Sandra, I am confused...I never said China was not in turmoil, just that Mao was not a part of the government at the time he seized power...as your own post says.

as for Raul, we can do dueling sources....I always try and get three sources before I post but whatever...other way I stand by what I said about Raul Castro (one source was wiki btw)...but regardless, we are wandering quite far afield from the thread's topic...if you want to start a thread about Chinese and Cuban history....go for it and we can continue this intellectual exercise there....as for me I stand by what I posted.

Have a nice day watching that sun set in the west. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 27, 2009 6:18 PM:

" Oh, and Raven, my main point about China, was that for all practical purposes, after 1912 there was not a stable government in control of the country until the communists took over. It was one civil war after another.
You claimed that someone outside the government took over. How can someone take over from outside the government when the government was never truly established in the first place? It was one power struggle after another with the communists, who assited in the original uprising finally taking control.
I went into all of that so you would understand why your claim was not quite accurate.
Does that help with your confusion?
:P "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 27, 2009 8:15 PM:

" Raven,

Not to refocus you or anything, but today the U.S. Government became the controlling shareholder of General Motors. Wasn't it you who stated previously that they would never do this?

So now Ford, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Subaru, Saab, etc all have to compete against the United States Government in a country where their competitor makes up all the rules!

And you are nit-picking about Raul Castro?

The Tea Parties were a protest against the government overreaching it's enumerated powers. I guess they didn't stop the Tsunami. "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 27, 2009 8:32 PM:

" And the United Auto Workers may take 55% of Chrysler????

Oh My God! "

Raven wrote on Apr 27, 2009 9:50 PM:

" if you read the story closer GM is asking the govt to become the majority stockholder as part of the restructuring plan so they dont have to pay back the loans...or so says the chron biz section...

General Motors, once the colossus of American capitalism, will become a leaner, government-owned company if the Obama administration goes along with the automaker's plan to slash jobs, close plants and eliminate the legendary Pontiac brand....
General Motors CEO Fritz Henderson said the company would offer the Treasury Department more than 50 percent of its stock to absolve GM of $10 billion in government loans.

and for chrysler...you have a problem with employee-owned companies?...as opposed to companies that shut down and through their employees on the street?

(it always in the details Mr4, always in the details) "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 27, 2009 10:04 PM:

" Tell it to the Bolsheviks. "

Raven wrote on Apr 28, 2009 7:46 AM:

" very insightful Mr4....but do you have a problem with employee owned companies and if you do, what would they be....? "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Apr 28, 2009 8:10 AM:

" I'm confused too.

The teabag parties were really about GM?

Although I'm not a fan of federal control of GM, I don't recall seeing a single sign about GM when I drove by, seemingly weeks ago now.

Lots of stuff protesting taxes which Obama had already lowered, though.

Demostrations can be fun though!!!

~Ruff "

Sandra wrote on Apr 28, 2009 8:32 AM:

" Castro consolidates power:
Fidel Castro sought to oust liberals and democrats, such as José Miró Cardona and Manuel Urrutia Lleó. In February professor José Miró Cardona had to resign because of Castro's attacks. On February 16, 1959, Castro was sworn in as Prime Minister of Cuba."




Fidel Castro was head of the military when the revolution was over. When he became leader of Cuba after ousting Cardona, and Lleo, and not allowing elections, his brother Raul became the head of the Cuban military.
So he while he may be nipicking , he is also just wrong about what happened and when.
And still misses Freeports point. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 28, 2009 8:33 AM:

" "leaner meaner government owned"?
OMG, now that is funny...... "

funnyme wrote on Apr 28, 2009 11:26 AM:

" One sign read:

"Hey Obama, my GM truck needs an oil change!"

I guess the "hopeful" is going to get one, for a "change" "

Mr4 wrote on Apr 28, 2009 11:43 AM:

" I can't wait to order my Pelosi GTxi from the new Congressional Motors!

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/12/the-pelosi-gtxi-ssrt-take-2.html "

freeport56 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 2:14 PM:

" Mr4-

That is the funniest video narrated by KSFO's Officer Vic. It should be pretty funny watching the UAW run a company. I guess the cost of our cars are going to double otr riple in cost due to cost of living and annual raises.

I guess that the following is not true;

According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

For a more concise breakdown of where these numbers come from see;

http://www.heritage.org/Research/economy/wm2162.cfm "

JimClark wrote on Apr 30, 2009 11:21 AM:

" Angelina: You seem to be scaring a lot of people; GOOD FOR YOU!!!! "

a teacher wrote on Apr 30, 2009 2:54 PM:

" JimClark: This stopped being about Angelina's original post a loooooooonnnnnnnngggggg time ago. "

napkin1 wrote on Apr 30, 2009 6:14 PM:

" Good for you, kid. It's thrilling to hear about anyone using their sweet right to protest, especially a younger one. May you have a lifetime of involvement in causes that are important to you.

I'm a democrat but fully agree with these tea parties. If I'd known it was happening I would have been there, too. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 30, 2009 6:31 PM:

" Teacher,
Think of Angelina's letter as the spring from which a large river has flowed. The conversation has evolved, yes, but it still circles her original thoughts and why the Tea Party was held. I think she should be very proud that her letter brought forth such a discussion. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on May 1, 2009 3:37 PM:

" Jim Clark-
Thank You. The truth isn't always "warm and fuzzy".

Sandra-
Thank You, I am proud.

napkin1-
Thank You. I'm curious... are you an old fashioned Democrat or a "Modern Day" Democrat? There's quite a bit of a difference between the two... "

napkin1 wrote on May 2, 2009 8:24 AM:

" Frankly I'm only registered as a Dem because they support one particular cause on which I'm unwilling to compromise. I'm pretty conservative on some things, too. But one must pick a party and like I said, I refuse to throw my support to the Republicans due to this one issue (I won't state it here as I don't want to hijack your thread!)

However, after the May election, I'm reregistering as a Libertarian. I think it will send an important message to the "Big Two" that politics as usual doesn't cut it anymore. And really, I'm pretty much aligned with their message for the most part. Less government is critical to the preservation of our freedoms, which is what makes America so great, in my opinion.

That is why I'm so glad to see you, or any American citizen, protesting for your causes (and citizens elsewhere protesting in their countries for their agendas, too!) Whether one protests for something I believe in or not is not the issue to me. Get off your haunches and be heard!!! It's a beautiful thing! America was created from protest against unwanted oppression...it's patriotic to stand up for what you believe in no matter what the cause!

Again, great job and keep it up :) "

XMAN wrote on May 4, 2009 2:03 AM:

" Trying to spend our way out of debt is how we got into this mess in the first place. Instead of paying the debt down, our government seems to be doing the opposite. We object! "

steph wrote on May 4, 2009 8:20 AM:

" napkin--welcome to the party! "

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