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U.S. capitalism and the threat of socialist ideals
Monday, January 19, 2009
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Today it is popular to criticize capitalism. I defend capitalism because, quite honestly, capitalism could use some friends.

With the Obama administration coming to power, we find ourselves at a socioeconomic crossroads.
While we are not currently fighting a Cold War with the Soviets, we are certainly engaged in a philosophical battle pitting individualism against populist collectivism. The stakes, however, are the same — the survival of American capitalism.

In some respects it is unfortunate that the Soviet Union has fallen. Prior to the demise of our old foe it was easy to defend against collectivism in America by simply pointing to the human suffering in Eastern Europe. But with our adversary gone, memories fade and the false appeal of socialist ideals is gaining traction.
The world has never seen a pure capitalist economy. Every known economy has been based on the collectivist premise that the interest of the state supersedes the interest of the individual. The genius of the U.S. Constitution was that for the first time the rights of the individual were recognized as taking precedence over the interest of the state. Our government was expressly created to protect the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of each individual. Only under this form of government has capitalism taken root.

But government intervention has grown steadily such that our economy today is a mixture of both capitalism and collectivism.
During the brief time since our founding, despite devastating world and civil wars and other disasters, the capitalist experiment in America has created the most powerful economy the world has seen. It has produced the highest standard of living in history, here and throughout the world.

Unfortunately, capitalism is misunderstood. Opponents claim that capitalism produces greed and greed translates into a desire for abusive power. But this criticism fails to recognize a fundamental distinction between economic power and political power. The capitalist seeks the power of independent production. The politician seeks the brute coercive power of the state to be used to control his fellow man — even if the politician genuinely believes that he is acting in “the public interest” or for the “common good.” In the end, political power is always used to subordinate individual interests to those of the society at large.

It is important to discuss corruption. There are corrupt capitalists as well as corrupt politicians. Both are criminals and should be removed from society. This discussion focuses on the vast majority of politicians and capitalists who are fundamentally honest.

Capitalism is often blamed for causing the Great Depression. But this is not true. The Great Depression was caused by government interference with the free market. Let’s look at the facts: In 1913 the Federal Reserve was established ostensibly to prevent bank panics and depressions. It was a government response to the Panic of 1909 wherein the stock market fell close to 50 percent, causing runs on many banks. The 1909 crisis was averted when industrialist J.P. Morgan and others used their own money to stabilize the banks. The Federal Reserve was an attempt by Congress to apply state power to stabilize future markets.

Things worked well until the Federal Reserve decided to stimulate the economy in the early 1920s by compelling banks to make loans at artificially low interest rates. This resulted in a huge expansion of the money supply and an artificial stock boom — with money being poured into highly speculative ventures. The crash was inevitable. The Fed reversed course in 1928, but by then it was too late.

After the market partially recovered the federal government decided to “help” again. It passed the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act to protect American companies from foreign competition. The result was retaliatory tariffs by other countries and the devastation of our biggest exporter: the American farmer. Rural banks failed en masse and the depression deepened. When a drought struck in the Midwest (Dust Bowl), the Great Depression was set for the long haul.

The circumstances surrounding the depression are frighteningly similar to today’s economic situation. Substitute the actions of Fannie Mae for those of the Federal Reserve and our “protective” government bailouts to the actions of Smoot-Hawley and draw your own conclusions.

Capitalism is not without its problems. When a capitalist makes bad decisions it can result in the failure of his business. But as an individual business within a free market, such failures tend to be isolated and have little impact on the economy at large. Only mistakes made by a centralized government can affect entire economies — often with catastrophic result.

Perhaps the best defense of capitalism lies not in a complex discussion of economics but rather in a simple discussion of moral principles. Capitalism is based on the principle of individual freedom. Collectivism requires forced subordination of the individual to the collective ideal as determined by government. Some would correctly call that slavery.

(Forstadt lives in Napa.)
86 comment(s)

kevin wrote on Jan 19, 2009 4:56 AM:

" "Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth. Socialism is the equal distribution of poverty."

Don't know who said it, but it remains true today... "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Jan 19, 2009 6:20 AM:

" Mr. Fornstadt's shallow 'friendship' for capitalism is rather trite.

Capitalism needs laws... two examples are enforcing contracts and punishing fraud, theft, and extortion.

So blaming government and/or pretending that government and a system of laws is not needed for capitalism to thrive is crackpottery.

Once you grant the existence of government and the rule of law as necessary then you must face the fact that monopolists and greedheads attempt to buy political favor to get laws favoring them.

The Federal Reserve bank is a private institution, not part of the government and the author fails to mention that the Fed was feeding billions to Wall Street Weasels in the buildup to Mr. Bungles Crash... and now...

And NOW, the Fed is feeding TRILLIONS to the same fraudsters, grifters, montebanks and thieves.

Sorry... NO SALE!

Unregulated capitalism is no friend to America's 99% of America's citizens.
However, it sure can be our enemy.

Bernie Madoff is under 'house arrest' after stealing $50 Billion, you or I would be under the jail for stealing one 10,000th of that.

~Ruff "

antipc wrote on Jan 19, 2009 6:26 AM:

" Great letter David.

Ironically, the "Progressives" aspire to repeat the darker eras of our history. "

JimClark wrote on Jan 19, 2009 6:54 AM:

" The nationalization of our economy gives new meaning to Bank of "America".

Not even the most liberal citizen should allow government the kind of control the are attempying "

freeport56 wrote on Jan 19, 2009 7:48 AM:

" With a Cabinet line-up filled with Marxist-Leninists, the Left's dream of de-evolving the United States market economy will be diasterous.

God help us and God help the country, as this will be our greatest struggle since the civil war! "

Farmgirl wrote on Jan 19, 2009 8:34 AM:

" Great article, Mr. Forstadt - too bad more people do not understand what is happening to our country. I worry about the country we are leaving to the next generation. Having Obama, Clinton, Feinstein and Boxer in power is chilling! We need to get government out of our schools, out of the farm industry, out of everywhere except to protect the country - and that they are failing at miserably! Every time government steps into something, it just gets worse! "

a teacher wrote on Jan 19, 2009 8:35 AM:

" Nice try, but dishonest.

"Perhaps the best defense of capitalism lies not in a complex discussion of economics but rather in a simple discussion of moral principles. Capitalism is based on the principle of individual freedom. Collectivism requires forced subordination of the individual to the collective ideal as determined by government. Some would correctly call that slavery."

First off, your portrayal of collectivism as being equivalent to slavery is one sided. People frequently agree to be in collectives, teams, families, trade organizations, countries. There is a recognition that group effort is more powerful than individual effort.

Your claim that capitalism has the moral high ground because capitalism is based on individual freedom. You leave out that that freedom comes at the expense of other's freedom. Capitalism at it's heart exploits people. You want an example, the mafia, a criminal based on capitalism. They sell vice.

"But this criticism fails to recognize a fundamental distinction between economic power and political power."

This is a naive statement. Examine ANY society, capitalist of not. The people in political power are either the top of the economic heap or work for them.

You talk of capitalism as if it is divorced from the larger world. As if there were no countries, as if an individual could live alone. That is not human nature, that is not reality.

Humans have a dual nature, individual and collective. Individual freedom can never be won or held except by collective action. An individual can not stand against a group. Groups never last long unless they recognize the individuality of it's members. "

glenroy wrote on Jan 19, 2009 8:43 AM:

" Very good David….I use to get a kick out of Professors who professed government intervention, government regulation, government redistribution…. but couldn’t explain the correlation between government intrusion and immediate economic decline…..now that it comes out of our pockets it’s not the kick it use to be.

Excellent work. "

common sense wrote on Jan 19, 2009 8:47 AM:

" Great letter, David! Ever thought of running for office? "

misfit wrote on Jan 19, 2009 9:12 AM:

" "Only mistakes made by a centralized government can affect entire economies — often with catastrophic result".
And what about mistakes made by these huge corporations...the ones "Too big to fail". What kind of result occurs when they do? "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jan 19, 2009 10:03 AM:

" Forstadt writes, "The world has never seen a pure capitalist economy." I predict that it never will. The so-called "free market" only exists within the fevered imagination of ideologues motivated by a religious faith in an economic model that never works in the real world. "

Sickothis wrote on Jan 19, 2009 10:19 AM:

" Someone broke out their old tattered copy of "The Fountainhead" and joined the Ayn Rand Institute.

How very 1943. "

Fire Mike wrote on Jan 19, 2009 10:21 AM:

" Before getting too excited about this mythical hero named Capitalist, we might want to pause and consider that all of his heroics take place in a “collectivist” environment. The workers the Capitalist employees are overwhelmingly products of public education. The roads and railways over which his products travel are tax-payer funded. The banks and institutions in which he carries out his financial transactions are regulated by legislation. His contracts are enforced by the adjudication of the courts. The police and fire departments which protect him and his ventures are publicly funded. Safe passage for his goods to foreign ports is guaranteed by our tax-payer funded military. The airwaves over which he advertises are owned by the People. All of these collective arrangements make the Capitalist possible.

Far from requiring “forced subordination of the individual to the collective ideal as determined by government,” working collectively provides the environment in which we can all prosper. That’s not slavery. That’s just the simple fact that we can accomplish a lot more when we work together. "

Raven wrote on Jan 19, 2009 11:01 AM:

" so all those who espouse free trade, unfettered, can stop their wailing when a US company follows that principle and moves jobs from the US to a nation with lower costs. "

misfit wrote on Jan 19, 2009 11:14 AM:

" God commen sense...Your standards are sooo low. Write a letter, run for office.
No wonder Joe the Plumber got so much press, elevated by the desperate Conservatives, grabbing at anyone they could to save them, to embody their ideology for them, to put words to something that cannot be backed up historically, logically or in reality. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Jan 19, 2009 11:15 AM:

" "Collectivism" is usually decried by Randites for taking money away from the well-off and giving it to the less-well-off.

In short, "Robin Hood-ism".

To Randites, the 'Sheriff of Notingham' should have been allowed to loot more freely, without that collectivist Robin giving the money back.

Ayn Rand is the "Karlette Marx" of "REVERSE Robin Hood-ism".

I read Ayn Rand in my pre-pubescent years, and gave her up when I grew up enough to get excited about girlie magazines.

Of course, I only read the articles which I found were much more intellectually honest and rewarding than Ayn Rand.

Most people grow up, ya know.

~Ruff "

rocco wrote on Jan 19, 2009 12:42 PM:

" Good Going MJH. """free-market - an economic model that never works in the real world.""" And this from a person who is constantly promoting socialism… I'm reading the funny pages here! "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Jan 19, 2009 12:52 PM:

" VERY Well said, "Fire Mike"!

~Ruff "

glenroy wrote on Jan 19, 2009 12:53 PM:

" You’re overwhelming wrong fire mike……private schools produce many more business owners and managers as a percentage of their graduates….it’s not even close.

It sounds good to public school advocates but it’s not reality. "

kevin wrote on Jan 19, 2009 1:13 PM:

" LOL, ateacher said "There is a recognition that group effort is more powerful than individual effort."

So by your definition, Cuba should be the most powerful country in the world!

In reality, the truth is the EXACT OPPOSITE. The individual, working to better himself and his family, is the REAL powerhouse... "

antipc wrote on Jan 19, 2009 2:08 PM:

" One small detail always forgotten by the left.

Unfortunately capitalism actually pays for all the socialist programs that continue to fail no matter how many times they are reinvented.

Take away capitalism & socialism starves.

Take away socialism & capitalism thrives.

A one way symbiotic relationship..... kind of like leaches & their hosts. "

Bill wrote on Jan 19, 2009 3:08 PM:

" False Mr. Forstadt,

Capitalism is not based on any moral system it is an economic theory based on human foible. It appears no place in the constitution and the founding fathers would be surprised at today’s interpretation of democracy as a free market system interpreted as an individuals freedom equated to the freedom of the market place.

Where as Hamilton might love it as a theory I doubt he would embrace it as a moral certitude anointed by the dogma of religion.

Theories change and adapt they do not exist in a vacuum of dogma. Indeed the beauty of capitalism is that it can adapt and change and is not frozen by unimaginative morality or exist in any pure form. "

Fire Mike wrote on Jan 19, 2009 3:15 PM:

" Glenroy – if you’re going to make sweeping comments like “private schools produce many more business owners and managers as a percentage of their graduates,” you’re going to have to provide some evidence. And even if it were true, the overwhelming majority of employees are still publicly educated. But let me reiterate the larger point: nearly everything that allows the capitalist to prosper is paid for by collective financing. If each of us had to build our own roads and railways to transport products; if we had to provide our own police and fire protection; if we had to operate our own TV and radio stations and periodicals for advertising, all without the benefit of laws to regulate business and courts to enforce contracts, none of us could prosper. Combining our resources is what allows the individual the freedom to start and build a business, or work for a corporation, or work in the public sector. None of this is possible without the infrastructure to support it. Think about it: do you really believe freeways are part of the socialist plot? Are cops and firefighters socialist pawns? When a business owner goes to court to assure his contracts are enforced is he a Marxist? Of course not.

Capitalism is not without merit. It has raised our standard of living and fostered remarkable technological advances. Its benefits are all around us. However, I hope people will realize that that American capitalism does not stand in opposition to collectivism. American capitalism stands on the shoulders of collective action. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 19, 2009 5:30 PM:

" "You’re overwhelming wrong fire mike……private schools produce many more business owners and managers as a percentage of their graduates….it’s not even close."

That's an interesting factoid, Glenroy. What's your source. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 19, 2009 5:35 PM:

" "" LOL, ateacher said "There is a recognition that group effort is more powerful than individual effort."

So by your definition, Cuba should be the most powerful country in the world!

In reality, the truth is the EXACT OPPOSITE. The individual, working to better himself and his family, is the REAL powerhouse... "

Kevin, I urge you to rethink the logic of this. Of all the things you could have picked to quarrel with, your response to that point is a bit absurd. If you don't believe me, go pick a fight with the local football team and see who wins. "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Jan 19, 2009 9:07 PM:

" ruff as usual gets it all wrong. But now he confirms that he got his advanced education from girlie magazines instead of paying attention and doing his schoolwork. Now the pieces all fit together. Girlie magazines don't have articles about economics or electricity.

Not that I didn't enjoy girlie magazines myself, but I knew the difference between education and entertainment. OK if you want, you can make the point that there is an element of education in those magazines. But I had already learned about that stuff. Some obviously never do. "

misfit wrote on Jan 20, 2009 5:56 AM:

" It's true...all those rich little white boys, go to $20,000 kindergarten, all the way up to $30,000 high school and half a million dollar college, have a job waiting for them in their granddaddy's and their daddy's companies.
I wonder how many of them become the crooks that have taken down these big companies, much of the stock market and our country's economy. Hmmm, wonder what "Real values" these "Private schools" teach? Honor the almighty dollar? "

anticommie wrote on Jan 20, 2009 8:47 AM:

" misfit-

What about the rich little black girls that will be residing in the white house today? Where do you think those kids go to school? What kind of government job will be awaiting them when they come to age? No longer can you and the left play this ridiculous race card. To you it is ALWAYS the white mans fault. well, not anymore "

glenroy wrote on Jan 20, 2009 8:50 AM:

" Mikey…..you’re mule’s at the wrong end of the cart or you've been fooled by revisionist history, either way the best government can do is provide incentive by returning what was taken.

Your beloved Party opposed economic progress from day one. The 1st generation, Jefferson and Madison, were ‘Elitist’ agrarians vehemently anti banking, business and industry. The 2nd generation became radical slave owners who forced agrarianism upon the southern states to protect their privileged heritage. The 3rd split the nation in half and formed the Confederate States of America, which also sowed the seeds of the Republican Party as the Anti-Democrat Party. The 4th generation implemented Jim Crow, Poll Tax and lest we forget that beloved fraternal order of the KKK. The 5th brutalized the South and corrupted metropolitan areas in the North from Chicago, New York, Boston etc politics….it wasn’t until the 6th generation that Democrats implemented Republican principles of tax reduction, equal rights, economic development. Democrats did this through controlling local and state Governments….that’s your parties legacy….

Anyway….the Interstate Highway was necessitated because a guy by the name of Henry built and sold millions of Model A’s . The taxes paid by companies like Standard Oil, Bethlehem Steel and Firestone were collected to build these highways and bridges built by companies like Dillingham or Babcox etc…

Before Henry there were railroads were build by private investors all over the place to take to market cattle, ore, coal, timber, steel, cars and transport folks around the country who themselves built thousands of new towns…once built the ‘people’ formed a local government….government didn’t develop or build ANYTHING. "

misfit wrote on Jan 20, 2009 9:29 AM:

" anticommie...There is a huge difference between earning it and inheriting it. "

MyWrites wrote on Jan 20, 2009 12:21 PM:

" Glenroy you forget that the national highway system was also seen as a national defense system to move large numbers of troops , armaments and supplies around the nation in the event of war upon our homeland.

The military and the Congress were active in planning this system which was based to a large degree upon public funds. As to corporations paying for many of these transportation possibilities, I would suggest that you investigate what part of total taxes collected are from corporations.

The maximum corporate tax of 33% is seldom realized. In fact corporations are seldom responsible for providing more than 10% of the nation's total taxable revenue. It is primarily the middle class that has been the greatest source of funds for government operation. "

freeport56 wrote on Jan 20, 2009 4:03 PM:

" Fire Mike-

As long as the Government does not own, or take ownership, or nationalize ownership of private industry. The least successful management capabilities exist in government.

Ah yes, the term "Collectivism" is now becoming mainstream. Next, it will be the "Historical Dialectic", "fellow Workers Unite", "Commrade, Yes we can for the good of the Mother Country".

Yeah boys, even that failed. the real question to ask your banker today is if they are Sharia Compliant? The answer may scare you! "

glenroy wrote on Jan 20, 2009 4:36 PM:

" Mywrites…indeed the interstate and major state highways serve other interests, the point is the monies are collected from taxes. My response is to those who foolishly believe the government creates and wealth then derives when in fact it is the opposite individuals, businesses and corporations create and the government benefits. Our current start up here in Napa pays more in taxes than earnings and to reverse that would make our customers competitiveness….which is why 3 of the 4 companies we started here moved out of state after we sold…the lone remaining was acquired by a large Insurance/Infosystems company which could afford to remain in state, though they’ve started to move data entry to the Philippians leaving administration and marketing. The fact is, sooner or later they will relocate if this incompetence continues because costs are skyrocketing and it is virtually all government driven.

I’d take issue with your comments that 33% corporate tax is seldom paid…. 33% federal is just one of many taxes. California has a minimum corporate/LLC tax whether or not a profit is earned at the end of the year. Corporations/LLC's pay local taxes such as property taxes and various school bonds, utility and sanitarian taxes which are paid regardless of profit…adding in matching payroll, SSI fully indexed the national average is closer to 45% of net …don’t forget that the employees also pay individual income taxes too and when included you‘d well over 50%!

Either this incompetence is reversed or we won't have a middle class.... "

cab e-girl wrote on Jan 20, 2009 7:29 PM:

" Glenroy is absolutely correct. The state minimum tax LLC's and corporations pay is just the tip of the iceberg. Try to get licensed to sell alcohol, food or tobacco in this state and find out what the state has in store for you. Don't call it a tax, call it a fee and you can charge businesses the tax whether they make money or not. This state has gone from being business unfriendly to anti-business. Those of you who can't find a job need look only as far as the democrats that run this state. Until they relax the regulations, fees and taxes in this state there is going to be a mass exodus of businesses. "

Henry Blankett wrote on Jan 20, 2009 9:42 PM:

" antipc wrote: "Unfortunately capitalism actually pays for all the socialist programs that continue to fail no matter how many times they are reinvented."

Really? So how do you explain that Iceland, whose economy has been specifically run by Milton Friedman acolytes for the past 15 years, is now completely bankrupt, and is running to its socialist Nordic allies -- Sweden, Denmark, Finland -- to bail it out? "

glenroy wrote on Jan 21, 2009 3:35 PM:

" Easy Henry….Iceland bought hundreds of billions of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac home loan Securities that went south….until then their Health Care is nearly as good as ours, at least where it is not being government managed….you asked you got.

Iceland was hooked just like the rest of us with Clinton’s ‘free money scam’ to keep his parties leftwing on board…..so now Obama wants to add a few trillion on to it….lovely. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jan 21, 2009 4:40 PM:

" The country has recently seen what happens when unregulated, unscrupulous capitalists run amok.

Private enterprise benefits from publicly-financed infrastructure and regulation.

Therefore, "pure" capitalism is not worthy of praise.

Like child labor laws? Then you're opposed to "pure" capitalism.

Like laws against insider trading? Then you're opposed to "pure" capitalism.

Do you feel that professionals (lawyers, doctors, teachers, real estate brokers) ought to be licensed or credentialed? Then you're opposed to "pure" capitalism.

Do you enjoy having a national park system or an interstate highway system or a system of canals to bring water from the mountains to your kitchen tap? Then you're opposed to "pure" capitalism.

(I could list examples ad nauseum.) "

Bauhausfan wrote on Jan 21, 2009 9:34 PM:

" "Capitalism is based on the principle of individual freedom. "

If this is true, how do you explain China? They have capitalism and yet it is a one party state.

There is nothing that says capitalism must have democracy to function.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." "

glenroy wrote on Jan 22, 2009 11:09 AM:

" …. Libs believe in freedom of choice, under their definitions……think about the silliness of trying to force someone to be successful at something so easy less than 8% succeed 5 years… The sad thing about China is they’ll beat us at our own game if we don’t get our craniums out of our gluteus maximus because after trying every other economic system they’ve finally learned and benefited from the power of individual freedom. Turns out all those 5 year economic plans were as useful as cement shoes for staying afloat in the deep blue…..

…LOL….there was nothing Capitalist about our financial meltdown….these were Democrat managed government agencies and investment banking firms benefiting from massive insider trading earning the culprits hundreds of millions personally while they were in the process of selling securities around the world known to be in default. The cost of doing business was to pump tens of millions of dollars into Democrat coffers… protection money, as in House Democrats. There were very few Republicans in these scams, it’s a problem easily solved, get the thieves out of your party.

Wouldn’t expect too many libs to understand this because it involves independent thought as opposed to their tried and failed group thought…LOL…. "

freeport56 wrote on Jan 22, 2009 1:23 PM:

" henry 40% of Icelands economy is the Fishing. By the way, They still hunt and kill Whales "

Raven wrote on Jan 22, 2009 2:09 PM:

" glenroy, did the GOP suddenly disappear for 6 years ....did the world stop at the end of the clinton admin and then start again with the democrats getting control in 2007?...what about 8 years of a bush administration, with six of them under the complete control of the GOP?Was that a figment of the imagination?

and the relationship to whaling and their fiscal crisis is, freeport? Btw....the biggest hit the icelandic economy was hit with was freezing of assets by British banks "

antipc wrote on Jan 22, 2009 3:02 PM:

" Thanks Henry.

Can't say I know much about Iceland nor do I care, although I did read some blurb about their banks nearing collapse due partially to some Russian loans.

Come to think of it, I can't think of anything that Europe does I'd want us to emulate. "

glenroy wrote on Jan 22, 2009 5:52 PM:

" It’s really not that difficult if you know how to read or were somewhat informed …..or if you knew how our economy functions, or more specifically dysfunctions when libs manipulate legislation pandering to a small segment of society…either way Crow it is what it is and if it were Republican legislation I’d be writing the same thing I’m writing now….but it’s not, this is a Democrat mess that resulted from greed and corruption and we will pay dearly while they all get away with it… "

Bauhausfan wrote on Jan 23, 2009 6:06 AM:

" Glenroy - The fact that you are serious about what you write on here shows one thing only, that you have swallowed the extreme right wing ideology pill (talk radio perhaps?) and can regurgitate right wing talking points with great ease. We are on the verge of the second Republican depression of the last 80 years and somehow it's the fault of Democrats and not "supply side" "voodoo" economics and deregulation championed by Republicans and unfortunately bought into by some Democrats. "

C'mon reg get it right wrote on Jan 23, 2009 8:50 AM:

" I don't believe capitalism is at a crossroads. It will continue to move along quite strongly now more than before. Clinton and Bush administrations as well as congress have stripped away many of the important safegaurds that protect competition. Pork bills are often rewarded to campaign donors, not companies that could do projects the best or least costly. Donors not always got money but got protection from market forces. So instead of changing, industry got bloated and unimaginative, unable to change when markets change. Hopefully with a more transparent government coupled with the recession companies will be able to capitalize on a new enviroment. This has happened before and I believe will happen again. Whats the adage, out of problems comes opportunity? "

CharSolo wrote on Jan 24, 2009 12:48 AM:

" Financial independence is freedom from control. "

Joanne wrote on Jan 25, 2009 5:42 PM:

" Atlas has shrugged and look what's happened.

There is no more devoted a disciple of Ayn Rand than good ol' Alan Greenspan. And as I recall, he was also the guy who testified to his shocked disbelief before Congress over the failure of his largely unregulated free-market-ideology-as-playbook for how to keep an economy from going into, well, meltdown, I guess, last October. (NYTimes, 10/23/2008: "A humbled Mr. Greenspan admitted that he had put too much faith in the self-correcting power of free markets.")

It's not exactly news to a lot of us, but now it ought to be pretty clear to the rest of you how well that's been working.

Pssst... Rand-ers and free-market ideologues: Haven't you heard? Your way, isn't just brutally punishing to the most disadvantaged and vulnerable among us. It DOESN'T WORK! The evidence is clear. So the time has come for you to take your discredited crock of Rand-inspired-you-know-what and, well, let's just say "reconsider it," shall we. "

Joanne wrote on Jan 25, 2009 5:55 PM:

" antipc: You might want to go read a little more about that Iceland thing. Iceland sought "bailout" funds from Russia in an effort to keep its economy from going down the financial drain that it was circling because it invested so heavily in the largely unregulated U.S. CDS market. "

kevin wrote on Jan 25, 2009 9:44 PM:

" Unregulated?

As if Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac weren't government sponsered entities!

LMAO

You Libs are so funny... "

Raven wrote on Jan 26, 2009 8:33 AM:

" The securities were unregulated, kevin, thanks to massive efforts by the GOP controlled congress at the time. "

glenroy wrote on Jan 26, 2009 8:49 AM:

" LOL presumptuous or clairvoyant?

It is from many experiences beginning with Democrat internships on human rights that my opinions were formed, along with teaching these subjects, majored, minored and an advanced degrees, 4 startups, articles, rebuttals, commentary and opinions on Political Science, Business and Education. Who has time for silly entertainment shows?

This began long before, as you call them, ‘right-wingers’ correctly predicted the consequences of liberalism, the inevitable bankruptcy if these problems were not brought under competent management, that $4.00 gas would cause recession, there is no such thing as ‘national security’ without energy independence etc…etc….etc…etc…….get it?

Metaphorically, perhaps, but the question is digestion…did it or not metabolize intellectually?

Our generation was the first to be force feed liberalism as mainstream…. so to that extent I purged what was forced on us to Graduate after a few short years in the real world experiencing all those things libs simply fail to comprehend….the consequences of their own actions! So there you know……since you swallowed and metabolized….At least try to defend your ideology…what has it done, why, how at what cost to whom…….maybe even explain precisely what it is you stand for….

Who knows you could be the first lib to ever do it successfully….LOL> "

glenroy wrote on Jan 26, 2009 2:05 PM:

" Pelosi crows just ‘don’t get it.’

Our worsening economic situation is the direct result of core Democrat policy failures and it doesn’t make any difference how many Republicans were in office at a given point in time, and the fact is it didn‘t make any difference when moderates and conservatives from both parties fought tooth and nail to block, and then annually tried to reverse these disastrous Pelosi polices.

What caused this recession was $5.00 gallon gas, what now threatens to turn this into another World ‘Depression’ resulted from House Democrats, notably Clinton, Pelosi, Reid, Frank, forcing private lending institutions to lend to unqualified borrowers and then selling these delinquent securities around the world with a government backed guarantee! Both Freddie and Fannie were completely controlled and managed by House Democrats….Obama took over $40,000.00 annually from F&F while in the Senate while Clinton averaged over $14,000.00...all of which we will repay.

Anyone who desires to understand the severity of this mess just needs to take a little time and research the wealth these libs have obtained since they were elected to office….these self proclaimed public servants make Dan Rostenkowski and Jim Wright look like a Saints. "

JimClark wrote on Jan 26, 2009 2:50 PM:

" Where in the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution does it allow a free people become enslaved by marxism? One pathetic little man usurps the greatest thinkers who occupied one place at one time? Karl wasn’t around this planet when those documents were turned into the opening of the American Mind as well as The Law of The Land "

Raven wrote on Jan 26, 2009 5:39 PM:

" where does it say you cannot follow marxism if that is your way to pursue happiness or promote the general welfare, Jim? "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jan 26, 2009 10:46 PM:

" The Declaration of Independence is not "The Law of the Land." "

dellasumbrella wrote on Jan 27, 2009 10:46 AM:

" Very interesting discussion.

"Collectivists" win on the merits.

Recognition to the "Capitalists" for their dogged persistence in the service of unfettered individualism. "

Raven wrote on Jan 27, 2009 11:18 AM:

" one more thing Jim, if Marx could usurp all those great thinkers, can you really call him a pathetic little man? "

freeport56 wrote on Jan 27, 2009 2:17 PM:

" Marx was a small man who principles were based on false premisses and lies.
We have yet to see the eutopia the left has promissed from these mutant forms of government "

glenroy wrote on Jan 27, 2009 2:34 PM:

" Besides being a failure at everything he did except enlightning libs.... "

JimClark wrote on Jan 27, 2009 3:05 PM:

" Raven: A pathetic little man seems to have influenced some very pathetic people. Some of don’t buy that pathetic snake oil comrade. Too many people have been indoctrinated into accepting virtual slavery delivered eventually by a Government sworn to Protect, preserve/support The Constitution of The United States. Naturally we need to grow and we have a Constitutional means to do so. marxism is certainly Not the answer. Proposed; get with the program. "

forstadt wrote on Jan 27, 2009 3:31 PM:

" Thanks for all the comments.

The gist of the original article is that Capitalism works better than collectivism.

It is not to be confused with anarchy and it does not condone white collar crime.

It is the government regulations themselves that create opportunities for corruption. There are thousands of examples of this and if you are honest with yourselves you can all name several.

The collectivist spin is appalling, blaming business and ignoring political corruption completely. And the talking points are repeated so often that they are taken as truth. A good example is the quote by Alan Greenspan (Joanne) when he testified before Congress last October. What he actually said was that he "made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organizations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms". In other words, they were duped by Fannie Mae along with the rest of us. But the New York Times changed his quote to infer that Greenspan was admitting that deregulation does not work. Unbelievable! "

forstadt wrote on Jan 27, 2009 4:01 PM:

" The cumulative intelligence of a few average people, making imperfect decisions every day in their personal self-interest, is far greater than the most intelligent central planner among us. Expand this cumulative wisdom across an entire nation and the difference between the free market (individual decisions) and collectivism (central planning) is no contest.

We all know that our politicians - republican or democrat - are not necessarily the brightest among us. Yet with the current Federal budget we are empowering every member of Congress with the spending of between $5 billion and $6 billion dollars EACH! That is equivalent to giving every one of them the revenues of a Fortune 500 company! Of course, they will delegate this spending to a myriad of unnamed and unelected bureaucrats who really don't care how much is spent, but these regulators work for the Common Good, so there certainly won't be any waste or corruption..

Anyone who honestly thinks that such a system can be a more efficient way to run an economy is simply not thinking it through.

Margaret Thatcher had a great quote. She said that "the trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" Sure seems that we are heading that way. "

Raven wrote on Jan 27, 2009 9:33 PM:

" wow, so again I ask, if Marx could do all this, can he be a pathetic little man? A pathetic little man could hardly have had the influence Marx has had ... or are you guys saying that all, except for a very select few such as yourselves, who's vast wisdom and knowledge puts them above all this; are so naive, ignorant or uneducated to be so easily swayed by his writing? "

Joanne wrote on Jan 27, 2009 9:46 PM:

" forstadt, you said: "It is the government regulations themselves that create opportunities for corruption. There are thousands of examples of this and if you are honest with yourselves you can all name several."

OK. I'm stumped. So why don't you name a few examples that apply here.

It is just absurd for you to suggest that greed and irresponsibility had no role in the meltdown of the largely UNREGULATED CDS market, which, yes, Alan Greenspan was a strong proponent of. And even Greenspan recognizes in retrospect that the CDS market played a substantial role in our current economic crisis. Please reconcile that to your stated position in this regard.

And we should give any kind of weight to Margaret Thatcher's pearls of economic wisdom why? "

forstadt wrote on Jan 28, 2009 8:07 AM:

" Here is a simple local example of the government skewing (corrupting) a market and wasting money: Wine Train

Everyone who sees those empty trains running up and down the Valley has to wonder how they stay in business. It is simple, there was an old 1860 something railroad law passed by the federal government that said in essence that when an interstate railroad runs through a town the local landowners, cities and counties have to pay for the upkeep of the line. DeDominico and company used that law to get our local government to spend tens of millions of dollars to change bridges, overcrossings, etc. - all for the benefit of Wine Train. A complete waste of other people's money.

As to the 'unregulated CDS market', nice try. That is a rathole I will not go down. It is basically a very complex mathematical system used by investors to spread and shift risk, but it was not the cause of the current problem. It was merely one of the circuit breakers that blew when the mortgage loans went bad. And that problem was caused by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, not by the bankers attempt to minimize the investment risk of the Fannie and Freddie paper.

Finally, Margaret Thatcher is simply correct. "

Raven wrote on Jan 28, 2009 10:13 AM:

" as I recall, and I could be wrong, but didnt the state PUC rule against the wine train being a regular 'interstate' railroad in its case against St. Helena? "

Joanne wrote on Jan 28, 2009 12:16 PM:

" forstadt: I asked you to give a few examples to support your assertion that "it is the government regulations themselves that create opportunities for corruption." Where have you done that in your response?

As to the CDS market, I wouldn't want to go done that rat hole either, but apparently a lot of people did and they did so because they were greedy and irresponsible. That is what regulation is intended to prevent against.

And if you really think that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were the only problems underlying our current economic crisis, I've got a beautiful piece of swampland that I'd like to sell you... "

Joanne wrote on Jan 28, 2009 12:20 PM:

" Whoops! Forgot to mention that I also respectfully disagree about that Margaret-Thatcher-being-correct thing. "

Joanne wrote on Jan 28, 2009 12:37 PM:

" And finally, please forgive the "typo" in my 12:16 post. It should have read "...DOWN that rathole..." "

glenroy wrote on Jan 28, 2009 1:31 PM:

" The meltdown had nothing to do with ‘unregulated’ CDs…it was 'insider regulation' that created this mess.

These were home loans that were ‘bundled securities’ in blocks of hundreds of millions sold largely though Democrat ’managed’ Wall Street Security and Investment Bankers around the world to banks, investment groups and governments as ‘long term investment grade guaranteed securities.’ Who would you suppose guarantees these securities?

Of the many criminal aspects, these were sold without disclosing the growing percentage within these blocks were already defaulting. We’re talking potentially $50 to $60 TRILLION DOLLARS worth of bunk bank securities House Democrats guaranteed….a little perspective our entire annual GNP is $12/13 trillion.

This mess was exclusively created by and ‘managed’ by Democrats, who were themselves appointed by House Democrats to ‘manage’ Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Freddie and Fannie buy these loans and sell them, simple enough. These ‘managers’ profited to the tune of tens of millions personally, while being protected by House Democrats. Freddie and Fannie the DNC, Congressional Democrats millions annually while, dishing a paltry few hundred thousands to a select few Republicans. Twice bipartisan efforts to reinstall some sense of fiscal managed, removed by the Clinton Administration, was shot down by Pelosi, Reid, Frank and Company.

The lenders dependant on selling loans to Freddie and Fannie had NO CHOICE but to make these loans knowing more than a few would not be repaid, and Freddie and Fannie sold them knowing they were already going bad, while House Democrats attacked anyone questioning thier own 'Ponzi scam' …so don’t blame Republicans for this Democrat mess. If anything learn from it…our Federal Government is ‘managed’ the same way by the same self serving crooks. "

Raven wrote on Jan 28, 2009 1:45 PM:

" again, where is the smoking gun...where is the regulation, the law, the orders taht forced any of these banks to violate sound business practices in making these loans....and just who ....

and why not blame the GOP, the GOP administration for the last 8 years was responsible for the monitoring of the securities markets, the deregulation of the markets reached it heights during the six years of GOP control of congress, so trying to blame it all on the Demos is just an attempt to hide from the GOP part in the debacle. The heights of deregulation happened in 2005, well before the Demos took over...

no matter how many times ya repeat it glenroy, it doesnt make it any more true. Both parties have dirty hands here.

I am sure the heads of the security companies selling those junk securities would be surprised to know they were Demo-controlled "

Joanne wrote on Jan 28, 2009 2:14 PM:

" Try again, glenroy. I was not referring to CDs. CDS = Credit Default Swaps. "

glenroy wrote on Jan 28, 2009 5:04 PM:

" ..No fooling...another Type O.... our staff editor went with the publication when we sold it, excuse me...

'CDS, as opposed to CDs, have absolutely nothing to do with this Democrat created economic meltdown'.... how's that?


......LOL big bird....spoken like someone who has to get his two cents in but doesn't know what, where, why or how..... a byproduct of CNN dependence no doubt. It's really not difficult in this day and age to get the facts yourself, just take the names listed in this mess and do a simple search and presto...Democrat, Democrat Appointee, Democrat Contributor or former Democrat office holder..... You don't usually have to do that when they happen to be Republican because the MSM seems to always point that out for us...or looking at from another perspective, when the party is not mentioned you can bet the farm it's another Democrat... "

freeport56 wrote on Jan 28, 2009 6:02 PM:

" Bauhausfan-

Under communist(China is not a Socialist country) political system such as China you have the following;

Forced sterilization, euthenizing of first born girls, executions of company CEOs or ministry heads when they fail(remember the poisioned dog food & toothpaste).


the Chinese were smart enough to recognize that more capital can be made through a capitalist market system. When they took back Hong Kong they did noit change a thing, they wanted the revenue. Communist and socialist endeavors do not work well as they rely too heavily on an over burdened and uneffective government to solve their problems. Those systems just do not work. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jan 28, 2009 6:21 PM:

" So-called "pure" capitalism is an economic competition with few winners and many, many losers. The ultimate result of unregulated capitalist competition is monopoly, inequality, concentration of wealth and widespread poverty. Who'd support that? "

Raven wrote on Jan 28, 2009 11:20 PM:

" glenroy, having fun...getting it all out of your system....you never produce that smoking gun because it isn't there. and you know, so continue and explain to all of us again how the GOP which controlled the Congress and the White House manages to let a minority of politicians stop them from fixing all the problems you whine about?...How did they manage that? Maybe because they didnt try...the head of the SEC, that staunch republican, admitted that the SEC had fallen down on the job, and the GOP led the effort to make sure that the CDS remained unregulated.

As I said, there is plenty of balme to go round and it includes both parties, glenroy "

glenroy wrote on Jan 29, 2009 6:01 PM:

" LOL twitty….name a government policy that accomplished the goals for which it was originally funded? Just one….there are hundreds to pick from so surely a program exists….LOL>… "

forstadt wrote on Jan 29, 2009 7:53 PM:

" For those of you interested in seeing examples of well-intended government regulation gone bad, I refer you to:

Philip Howard, "The Death of Common Sense: How Law is Suffocating America." New York. Random House (1994)

Referring to the state of regulatory law in 1994 it is frightening. When you consider the fact that regulation has grown exponentially since then, you can only imaging the stories that are available today. "

kevin wrote on Jan 30, 2009 6:01 PM:

" With another lawyer in the White House you are not going to see a reduction in the number of regulations... "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jan 31, 2009 11:03 AM:

" President Bush applied to law schools but wasn't admitted. Instead, he got an advanced degree in Business. We all know how well that worked out---for him and for the rest of us. (Spectrum, Arbusto, etc.) "

glenroy wrote on Feb 1, 2009 10:17 AM:

" Of course President Bush had nothing to do with Clinton’s lending a few trillion dollars to those who were never capable of repaying….and when moderates and conservatives tried to reel in this ‘time bomb’ in 2003 and 2004 they were called racists by Frank, Pelosi etc. "

glenroy wrote on Feb 1, 2009 12:30 PM:

" Another little piece of reality from 1993 after Clinton modified the ‘Community Reinvest Act’ forcing lenders to provide loans to those without means to repay….

Quote:
Prominent Chicago ACORN activist Madeline] Talbott continued her effort to, as she put it, drag banks "kicking and screaming" into high-risk loans.

‘A September 1993 story in The Chicago Sun-Times presents her as the leader of an initiative in which five area financial institutions (including two of her former targets, now plainly cowed - Bell Federal Savings and Avondale Federal Savings) were "participating in a $55 million national pilot program with affordable-housing group ACORN to make mortgages for low- and moderate-income people with troubled credit histories."
What made this program different from others, the paper added, was the participation of Fannie Mae - which had agreed to buy up the loans. "If this pilot program works," crowed Talbott, "it will send a message to the lending community that it's OK to make these kind of loans."
Well, the pilot program "worked," and Fannie Mae's message that risky loans to minorities were "OK" was sent. The rest is financial-meltdown history.
IT would be tough to find an "on the ground" community organizer more closely tied to the subprime-mortgage fiasco than Madeline Talbott. And no one has been more supportive of Madeline Talbott than Barack Obama. ‘
End Quote. "

Raven wrote on Feb 2, 2009 1:00 PM:

" Last time I checked, she was not a member of any government department with no legal authority to force anyone to do anything.

Using public pressure is not the same as being forced by the government. "

glenroy wrote on Feb 2, 2009 2:46 PM:

" This would explain libs being out to lunch when it comes to their Parties failures…

Quote:
■ December 11, 2003: New York Times reported: “Federal regulators released a scathing report Wednesday on the corporate culture that fostered improper accounting at Freddie Mac, the same day that they announced that the company had agreed to pay a $125 million penalty and to take measures to prevent future misconduct.” Not a peep on ABC, CBS, NBC.

■ May 7, 2004: Washington Post reported: “Fannie Mae's regulator said yesterday that the federally chartered mortgage funding giant improperly accounted for the declining values of two types of securities in its portfolio, though it did not say how big those unreported losses could be.” No coverage from networks.

■ December 22, 2004: CBS’s The Early Show carried a one-sentence report: “Fannie Mae has fired its CEO, Franklin Raines, over accounting problems at the mortgage giant.” Raines was Bill Clinton’s Director of the Office of Management and Budget, a major Democratic figure, but his party connections were not mentioned.
Six days later, the Early Show offered a follow-up: “And Fannie Mae’s ousted CEO will be getting a massive payoff, if federal regulators don’t block it. Franklin Raines could get more than $114,000 a month for life, plus deferred compensation. The mortgage giant’s board of directors forced him out last week because of an accounting scandal.” The other networks mentioned none of this. End .


While was going on Pelosi, Reid, Frank and Murtha were calling Republican’s racists for trying to get this mess under control…. May 7, 2004, the Post pointed out these Democrat managed institutions selling securities that were in default…guaranteed by the Federal Government. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Feb 2, 2009 6:37 PM:

" If GOPers are to be believed, from 2001 to 2008, the Republicans in Congress and the White House were sooooooooo weak that they couldn't effectively fight against the agenda of evil Democrats, despite controlling both houses of Congress and chairing all committees! Poor Republicans. It must be frustrating to be so incredibly powerless in the face of Democratic might! "

Raven wrote on Feb 2, 2009 8:34 PM:

" so glenroy, no one is disputing fannie and freddie, along with just about every bank and investment firm sc***d up...the issue is a smoking gun saying banks were ordered by the gov't to make loans to people who weren't qualified and couldn't pay them back. "

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