College prep should not be compulsory

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Thursday, January 08, 2009

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By Caroline Wilson

On Jan. 15, the Napa Valley Unified School District is hoping to pass an initiative which would require all students to pass college preparatory classes — requirements as set forth by the University of California — in order to receive a high school diploma.

For several reasons, I urge our community and the NVUSD school board members to reject this initiative.

First of all, students have diverse learning styles, interests, needs and abilities.

To assume that all students are interested in or able to pass the required courses is a mistake.

Most of the jobs in our society (70 to 75 percent, according to the U.S. Department of Labor) do not require a four-year college or advanced degree.

Many jobs do require training beyond high school, e.g. police officer, firefighter, plumber, graphic artist, hairdresser, electrician, nurse, etc. Students should plan on furthering their education beyond high school.

But to mandate that people whose talents or interests do not lie in the intellect pass all college preparatory courses in order to receive a high school diploma shows blatant disregard for the diversity educators claim to respect.

Secondly, the current California high school dropout rate is 24 percent, one of the highest rates in the nation.

According to the California Dropout Research Project (June 2008), there is a direct correlation between failing a core academic class and dropping out; with each successive failure, the chances of losing that child to the dropout statistic becomes higher.

Failure of Algebra 1 — the only higher math course currently required for graduation — is the highest predictor of a student’s dropping out. Mandating that all students pass college preparatory courses is very likely to exacerbate our dropout problem.

Much of the district’s initiative is to be commended.

We should be providing more interventions for students in need; we should have remediation for those behind; we do need to make the standards more rigorous for students with strong intellectual abilities and potential.

However, what is being ignored is the fact that the school district already provides the opportunity to become “college-prepared” and all of our students are not following that path. Forcing them rejects the reality of the issues behind our dropout rate and what’s more, it tells our community’s children that we value those with college degrees more than those without.

The purpose of a high school education, as I see it, is to prepare our community’s children for life.

They need to be able to balance a checkbook; make informed decisions about politics and personal finance; be able to think critically; and express themselves articulately.

It seems to me that a more just school district initiative would be one in which the school district’s high schools provide rigorous college preparatory classes for those working toward a college degree and at the same time provide rigorous vocational training for those interested in pursuing careers that do not require four years of college or more. No child should be discouraged, dissuaded or prevented from taking college preparatory classes just as no child should be forced to complete a course of study which does not suit his individual needs or talents.

(Wilson lives in Napa.)

65 comment(s)

pharper wrote on Jan 8, 2009 12:27 AM:

" Enroll your kids in New Tech.

The system is built exactly that way - prepare kids for the real world, which may or may not be college. "

rpcv wrote on Jan 8, 2009 7:27 AM:

" I completely agree with Caroline on this. The wonderful Community College system is there for students who later decide they want to pursue a college education. It shouldn't be forced on everyone in High School. "

marcydeeds wrote on Jan 8, 2009 8:06 AM:

" I just heard about this issue for the first time yesterday and am interested to hear the debate at the meeting. I thought your view point was very well thought out and informative. Thanks for letting everyone know when the meeting is and what is being decided. "

VERUM wrote on Jan 8, 2009 8:07 AM:

" Wake up!! Technology is requiring higher education. Learing is required for jobs that will not exist for years to come. "Forcing eduaction" indeed. Promoting ignorance is just plain lazy and stupid. "

gypsy wrote on Jan 8, 2009 8:36 AM:

" Hear, hear, Caroline! I'm a high school teacher and I most certainly do not subscribe to college-prep-for-everyone. It sends a dangerous message to students that if they, and by corollary their parents, do not go to college, that they are somehow "less than." Business leaders and misled education officials believe that by taking college-prep classes, students will be ready for anything else they want to do. I disagree. While there is great value in reading Dickens and Shakespeare, or dissecting sharks, or calculating derivatives, not every student needs or wants that, and we must communicate to students that they can be successful no matter what their interests and abilities, and encourage what the student has rather than what we think they should do. We can encourage critical thinking and practical skills without trying to squash square pegs into round holes, so to speak. We can have decent and rigorous non-college-prep classes and technical training that really will turn out students ready for the workforce and participation in our democracy. This push for college-for-all is not about "access for all" or equality in any form. What it betrays is a kind of elitism in our education and business officials, and a lack of understanding of and appreciation for what constitutes adult success. We can certainly do more to get qualified students to go to college - that much is clear. But we must also invest the same or more in students who will not, lest they be "left behind." That's the true challenge. Also consider: A ratty Steinbeck novel issued in a college-prep class costs less than decent computers or state-of-the-art technical equipment for an ROP nursing program. Money is the hidden force here. "

Farmgirl wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:03 AM:

" This is all the fault of no child left behind. You see, if you require higher standards and the kids who cannot achieve them drop out, the ones that are left are the ones who perform well and make the schools test scores look better as if the schools were actually educating students better. I heard about one high school (not in Napa) that raised its test scores dramatically and when teachers from Napa went there to learn about how they did it, the underground gossip was that they just got rid of the underachievers any way they could! Just gossip - but how can you force kids who do not care about an education to learn? It would help if we required students to speak English before they start school - eliminate the wasteful bilingual stuff - and if the kids had to speak English to go to school maybe the parents would quit teaching them any other language! "

napablogger wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:11 AM:

" Far too many students go to college. Most people are not suited for it, as the writer suggests. It does not mean you are promoting stupidity, just reality.

Students should have to learn some valuable skills and have some liberal education in high school, but there is too much emphasis on going to college.

I agree with the writer. "

rickw wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:16 AM:

" Hammers and nails are still the same as they have been for a hundred years, we need people to fill those jobs too. Lets face it some people are just cut out to be blue collar workers and a college degree is not required. "

Teddy wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:58 AM:

" The other issue here is that by pushing college prep for all, they will gut other classes (both because of time and money committed to the college prepe classes). Therefore the dance program, sports, and vocational efforts such as shop will be done away with. Kids need math and science, but even the best colleges want kids who are well rounded. This proposal hurts both the college bound and non-college bound kids. The coomunity needs to show up the hearing at let the Board know how they feel. "

wpr wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:58 AM:

" I agree 100%. It is my opinion that schools, at least in my time and location, failed to prepare kids for anything other than college. In my school system, they pushed and pushed the college route and did nothing for those who did not, or could not, go that route. This included myself. I felt left out and ostracized by the time I graduated high school. Looking back, I wish someone could have had the foresight to counsel us on other careers and jobs paths. The school system failed many students back then. Don't continue that policy. "

Raven wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:05 AM:

" Some of the biggest mistakes I have seen education system make is assuming that 1) all kids should go to college and 2) that all kids want to go to college. Bring back vocational education as an 'acceptable' track for success. "

pat wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:35 AM:

" Caroline, you state “The purpose of a high school education, as I see it, is to prepare our community’s children for life.” I could not agree with you more. But what you failed to mention is that we are not preparing our children for life. Kids graduating under the current requirements are not prepared to enter a vocational program and succeed. They are not prepared to enter a community college and succeed. This is not my opinion, but the opinion of many vocational schools, private employers, community colleges, four year schools, and even the military. Surveys after survey, these groups keep stating that the graduates are not prepared for the programs they are entering. Keeping the bar low so more kids can graduate is not a sustainable solution. Raising the bar, expecting more, and helping students achieve higher levels of learning is what we need to do to compete in a global market place. Along with that will be a need to provide more interventions and offer remediation for students that need the help. And, as you mentioned, this is part of the district’s initiative. Anyone with a high school student knows, more often than not the child will do what is necessary to get by, and not go over and above. I applaud the district for wanting to raise the bar, a high school diploma should be an indicator a person is ready for life’ challenges, not proof that they can simply sit through four years of mediocre curriculum. "

happy-napan wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:28 AM:

" One of my sons has dyslexia and struggles with school. (Remediation has helped)
He is in tutorial classes for everything and thankfully is doing well, finally!
I don’t know if he can pass any of the test requirements for entering college.
He is extremely creative and visual and will do something wonderful in his life with the skills that God gave him, but believe me, it’s not book learning. And isn’t up to the family to decide how to raise their children up to support themselves? "

a teacher wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:53 AM:

" One size does not fit all. "

steph wrote on Jan 8, 2009 12:15 PM:

" I worry about elements of racism and sexism coming into play--classism, too, when adults at school decide for children that they are not college material, and so decide to track those kids into a program with lower standards, or direct them to careers with lower pay and lower education. I have to say that I agree somewhat with Pat, that we need to raise our standards significantly in this country, as we are falling behind countries who do a lot more with a lot less. This will take parent involvement and sacrifice for certain, and radical changes in our systems, but we can and must do better by our children. ALL of them, not just those lucky enough to be born into certain higher-class or higher-educated families.
Obviously not all children will go to college, our country should be able to provide a really excellent, high-level free high school education that will serve all children well in life. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Jan 8, 2009 2:05 PM:

" I agree with Caroline Wilson.

If a kid wants to be a plumber, they will make more money than a college-educated teacher anyway.

Sad, but true. My daughter gave up on being a teacher because she did not want to take a vow of poverty.

~Ruff "

Browns Valley wrote on Jan 8, 2009 2:59 PM:

" Algebra is commonly taught in sixth grade in many if not most other countries in Europe and Asia. Algebra is not advanced math. A pre college curriculum as defined here is just an attempt to get somewhat closer to the level of difficulty taught in the rest of the world to their students. Whether we like it or no the rest of the world has already defined what base level of academic achievement is required in math and science for all students. Students will learn what is expected of them and we expect too little. "

b wrote on Jan 8, 2009 3:40 PM:

" Schools should be tailoring curriculum to the needs of the student. Trying to force all students into one path only adds to the boredom and frustration that many students feel and many of them end up dropping out.

One commenter has a point that vocational program cost more, but I think another motivation for the District to require all students to take college prep classes is because the State Education Standards and No Child Left Behind already require all student to learn college prep material.

The goal of requiring all students to take college prep classes is to improve lower-performing students' test scores. This will probably happen as a result of the District's plan, but this will probably lower the bar for students who are planning to go to college.

I believe that schools should tailor the curriculum and classes to meet the needs of each student rather than forcing all students into same program. "

Bill wrote on Jan 8, 2009 5:02 PM:

" Actually the schools should be tailored to the needs of society. Ms Wilson is correct. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Jan 8, 2009 5:23 PM:

" What if the "needs" of society become 70% service, 20% skilled, and 10% scholastic?

Service oriented jobs do not require college education. Skilled jobs require vocational training and the other 10% actually require college education. I don't know what the actual statistics are, but assuming the above is close to being correct, what's the point of preparing 90% of students for a college educated path if only 10% are actually going to use it?

Also, a couple of years ago I attended a Junior College for some extra training in a particular subject. What I noticed was that the semester started out really full, but soon, parking was easier; lunch lines were shorter; Students were dropping out and full classes were soon half filled.

In the longrun we have a substantial population of students who "think" they can handle the academic demands of higher education but soon discover that they are on the wrong path. They are completely unprepared to make a transition into the work world.

It's a process of "weeding out". If they don't drop out first, they are weeded out at the next level. We are wiser to recognize the potential of people before they reach the stage where weeding out occurs. It's better to "track" than to ignore and pretend things will miraculously fix themselves later on. "

Farmgirl wrote on Jan 8, 2009 7:44 PM:

" happy-napan - my daughter too has learning disabilities - we have paid extensively for outside tutoring, etc. She works very hard - and compensates for her difficulties with extra credit projects and anything else (like bringing the teacher their favorite dessert - she is very creative!) that will help her. She is extremely goal oriented and driven and is probably doing much better than a lot of students who do not have difficulties and are much brighter! She is now attending a Jr. College (no college entrance exams needed) that specializes in her field - and ended her 1st semester with all As and Bs. I am very proud of her work ethic and am sure she will do fine in life! Just keep helping the kid all you can! "

a teacher wrote on Jan 8, 2009 8:00 PM:

" "" Algebra is commonly taught in sixth grade in many if not most other countries in Europe and Asia. Algebra is not advanced math."

That's not really true. A more accurate statement is that in Europe and Asia take a spiraling more integrated approach to Mathematics in middle school. Elements of Algebra are taught in 6th grade and 7th grade, as are elements of geometry and general numeracy. That's becoming more the case here in the USA.

In fact, the curriculum for 6th, 7th and 8th grade Maths in Singapore (the top country performance wise) is similar to California. There they teach Algebra in the 8th grade. The big difference is that Singapore has fewer topics per grade. In California we are a mile wide and an inch deep.

As for rising to the level of expectations, I don't know about that. 50% of California 8th graders take Algebra, but only half of those prove to be proficient at the end of 8th grade. Setting high standards is a good thing, but setting them unrealistically high is a setup for a large number of students. A goal of being able to bench press 250 pounds is good for some. Making it a standard for 7th grade PE would be rediculous.

I think there always has to be an option for students academically oriented. Some people take a little longer to find their way. That was cetainly true in my case. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 8, 2009 8:03 PM:

" The other question is who thinks all these people can afford to go to college? Anyone paying attention to the cost of college lately? "

glass wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:11 PM:

" teacher -- the school district is not suggesting that every one GO to college; just that they would be properly prepared if they wanted to go.

I am AMAZED at all the commenters here who think it's OK to keep the bar low. Shouldn't we applaud the school district for wanting the best for all of our kids? "

a teacher wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:41 PM:

" Glass, the biggest complaint I get from parents is that the math is too hard for them to help their children with their homework. Most of them tell me that they didn't see that kind of math until they got to high school. I don't think standards are too low.

I have news for you, 50% of our students are below average. That's the definition of average. Not everyone is cut out for college and no amount of shouting "jump higher!" is going to make it so.

What happens to students who can't make the grade? College prep or nothing? How is that a good plan? "

vocal-de-local wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:52 PM:

" Teacher, your comment about integrated math in European countries was interesting.

When my son was four, I never taught him a number system which began at #1 and only moved forward. I taught him negative numbers from the get go. I used chalk on my driveway and made a number line. We played a hopping game where he would move forward 3, backwards 7 etc. into the negative numbers. He never had a chance to develop a concept of"positive only" numbers. Algebra was a breeze for him.

I do believe that almost all children have capabilities beyond what we think their potential is. Much of what we define as "learning disability" is really nothing more than a learning "difference". The question is whether we want to invest money in teaching all the different types of learners.

How does Europe deal with learning differences? Do the educational systems of other countries look good because they have a tracking system which sends failing students in another direction? Are they only counting the college bound students in their statistics? When people suggest that other countries are performing better with education, I really need more information about how they collect their data. "

B wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:18 PM:

" glass, part of the problem of requiring all students to take college prep courses is that the bar is likely to be lowered for the students who plan to go to college. Some teachers can maintain high expectations for learning among all students in a diverse classroom, but most will simply teach to the middle. This will only result in the bottom dropping out and the top not being adequately prepared for college.

I believe that schools should be tailored to the needs of society as well as the student. The only reason some students even show up to school is because of one art class, sports, or other class that seems relevant to their life.

Why is every student in CA required to understand how proteins are synthesized from DNA, but not required to learn how to grow a tomato plant? Does society really need everyone to understand how proteins are made from DNA? My assumption that everyone on this thread is a successful adult, but how many of you could explain this process? "

B wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:53 PM:

" vocal, I wish I knew more about the data as well. It's admirable that we want the best for all our children, but I think we have have erroneously equated college with success. Your comment reflects this when you mention sending "failing" students in another direction. My brother never went to college and he makes twice as much as I do and I spent 6 years in college and borrowed $20K. We are both successful and very happy with our careers.

I recall a great scene in the movie "The Breakfast Club" where the nerd almost committed suicide because he got an F on a lamp he built in shop class. The nerd took shop because he thought it would be an easy A. Here's the commentary between the "nerd" and the "stoner" that relevant to this topic.

Nerd: I'm a idiot 'cause I can't make a lamp?
Stoner: No, you're a genius 'cause you can't make a lamp.
Nerd: What do you know about trigonometry?
Stoner: I could care less about trigonometry.
Nerd: Bender, did you know without trigonometry there would be no engineering?
Stoner: Without lamps there'd be no light.

What a great movie! "

Aleph wrote on Jan 9, 2009 1:43 AM:

" I agree with Caroline Wilson. Some students are left behind in the learning process and are looked down upon. Not everyone learns at the same pace or level so struggling students should get more help and not be ignored. Learning "standards" don’t help at all. Instead they make learning boring, tedious, and pointless. Plus there's no room for discussion which prevents relating the material to everyday life. I believe standards are a reason why many students are doing poorly in English. By only reading required readings and asking basic questions there's no passion for the students to see and thus the interest is lost. However, in a class where literature is analyzed beyond basics, where creative analyzes leads to creative writing, then the student can find a use and passion for learning proper English.
When I was at Napa High School, I took the classes that would get me to college because I knew that was the right path for me. I would take college prep but mostly honors and AP classes. However, I didn't end up in college right away since my family didn't have the money or resources to help me get there. Sadly, I had to push college aside. After a long financial struggle I'm now at Cal pursuing the future I always wanted for myself. "

Jane Eyrehead wrote on Jan 9, 2009 12:17 PM:

" All due respect to pharper and New Tech, but the techno takeover that is being proposed for Napa and Vintage Highs is not emphasizing the "no college" option. New Tech was originally designed for the student going to work, not college, right after high school. (Of course many people go on to college after working a few years.)

In addition, the photo of the New Tech students in the paper last month really caught my attention. Very few workplaces allow employees to wear iPods. Now, that's the real world. Sorry.

I do enjoy your posts, pharper, and you are a strong advocate for your school. I hope NTHS appreciates you! "

Jane Eyrehead wrote on Jan 9, 2009 7:06 PM:

" Back again. I responded to pharper and didn't read all the posts.

There is no comparison between other countries that supposedly do such a wonderful job teaching their students and ours. The United States is the only country in the history of the world that has offered a free public education to all students up to graduation at age 18. Other countries track their students. I should add that other countries attach a higher prestige to advanced vocational education than we do, which is a shame.

It's also a shame that the California colleges are broke and crowded. Where are all these students suposed to go? The CSU system stopped accepting applications several days before the deadline this year.

This is an important issue--certainly as important as all the abandoned desks in Memorial Stadium. The consultants' report didn't come cheap. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 9, 2009 7:13 PM:

" The harsh reality is that jobs that pay well but do not require a college education are few and far between.
The ones who barely make it through high school are doomed to a below par subsistence level, and often leech on the system through such things as Section 8 housing. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 9, 2009 7:21 PM:

" Teacher wrote: 'Anyone paying attention to the cost of college lately?"

It's not that bad. Do your first two years at the local community college, then transfer to one of the UC schools for the final two years. Between scholarships, Pell grants, and federal student loans, anyone can do it. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Jan 9, 2009 10:23 PM:

" Jane Eyrehead writes, " the photo of the New Tech students in the paper last month really caught my attention. Very few workplaces allow employees to wear iPods. Now, that's the real world. Sorry."

The photo was of Vintage High School students, not New Tech students. "

Jane Eyrehead wrote on Jan 9, 2009 11:25 PM:

" MJH--

I stand corrected, thanks. Still, I think I'll show up at my 21st century real world workplace wearing an iPod and see how long that lasts. "

Raven wrote on Jan 10, 2009 10:31 AM:

" so, if we shift more and more students to the CC's and then we cut the funding to the CC's, so they cannot hire the teachers to teach the classes they need, what do ya do?

As far as financing, Pell grants do help but one of the effects of the financial crisis is that student loans, even federally guaranteed student loans, are getting harder to come by; plus do you really want to leave your son or daughter leave college burdened by 40k or more in loans before they even have a job? "

make napa better wrote on Jan 10, 2009 12:21 PM:

" Why don't we just up the education our children do get instead of forcing them to take college prep classes?

If our schools weren't too crowded and our children had a chance. They wouldn't need extra classes. "

psoren wrote on Jan 10, 2009 11:19 PM:

" "Statistics released by the U.S. Education Department this week show that some 32 million U.S. adults lack basic prose literacy skill. That means they can't read a newspaper or the instruction on a bottle of pills." 1-10-09

That's 14% of the adult population or 1 in 7 adults that can not read.

Yeah, we should lower the standards some more...

Pull your heads out of the sand. The standard of education in this country is a joke.

I moved here in the early 90's, from a country where I was basically a failing student. Average 43%.

I enrolled in a private school here, and with the same amount of effort (which was none) passed with ease. 75%

I graduated college here with minimal effort and a 3.14 gpa.

No wonder this country is falling behind... keep 'em dumb, they are easier to control, ya know?

I am befuddled at the commentators who are all for keeping such a low standard of education, regardless of future aspirations.

School is an important part of a young adults life, and everyone should be driven to excell regardless of their future career choice.

Taking responsibility, something that is sorely lacking in this country and manifested in the above posts far too frequently. "

freeport56 wrote on Jan 13, 2009 3:59 PM:

" Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the understanding that only 40% to 60% of High School graduates went on to college after high school.

I do agree in a curriculum change though. I would like to see Banking and Finance, Real Estate (buying, leasing, and renting), and other business courses taught to really prepare students for the outside world. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 13, 2009 4:51 PM:

" Sure, we will always need some blue collar workers, but Ruff doesn't mention that openings in the plumbing field are hard to come by. In fact, well paying jobs not requiring a college education are rare. This means that many without that education are stuck in low paying jobs, often requiring assistance in the form of Section 8 housing and Medical, many with no health insurance. Do we really want to encourage more people to become leeches on the system? "

John Richards wrote on Jan 13, 2009 5:05 PM:

" Thank you, psoren, for telling it like it is. Like you I was also educated abroad, until 7th grade. When I came here, I was appalled at the lax academic standards. The rest of the world is laughing at us, and at this rate will soon overtake us. It is pathetic that this society is more interested in worshiping the latest pop singer or movie star, or in fawning over one's favorite sports teams, than in any sort of academic endeavor. No wonder so many of our kids perform poorly in school. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 13, 2009 5:10 PM:

" Raven wrote: "do you really want to leave your son or daughter leave college burdened by 40k or more in loans."

It doesn't cost 40k to attend two years at UC Davis, especially with help from Pell grants. I know because I just finished putting two of my kids through college. The first two years at NVC are practically free. "

steph wrote on Jan 13, 2009 6:50 PM:

" In 1993, I left grad school with $20k in student loans. My folks paid for 4 years at a UC and I paid for 3 years more by working and taking loans. Many of my classmates were similarly in debt at graduation. My colleagues who graduated from private schools were more deeply in debt. But we all got to work and paid those loans off over time, and now enjoy salaries on a par with our education levels--and pay lots and lots of taxes. Student loans are not so bad if you choose a profession that will make such an investment worthwhile. Education can (should?) be a financial investment.
Too many kids don't think they CAN go to college because their parents didn't go and don't encourage them to go. By the time they graduate from high school without taking prerequisites, they've fallen way behind and are looking at many years at CC and then ? High schools would do well to foster the idea in children that college is not just for other people from upper classes--it can be for anyone who wants to go and is willing to work hard to get there, even if their parents didn't go to college. Better to have open doors than closed doors, better to have lots of opportunity and eligibility. I do wish we also had vocational studies more available, because I know I pay a mechanic or a carpenter more per hour than I make, even with my advanced degree. And I do admire their work and expertise. But there's no reason they shouldn't know Algebra or a second language or how to think critically about science, lest they be manipulable by unscrupulous people in their lives. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 13, 2009 7:16 PM:

" JR: Not everyone can get Pell Grants. Not everyone qualifies for scholarships. The cost of schools varies depending on whether you go public or private, are able to live at home or live outside of your home. Several of my friends are facing paying for their youngster's college. It's very sobering to look at the prices.

I happen to agree with you about lax standards. My kids came from out of state and they were far ahead of their classmates. However, the curriculum here is pretty much the same as other states (I've taught in a few). I am at a loss to explain it.

I am not against raising standards and demanding excellence (I do that in my classroom). I just don't think that their plan is sound, for the reasons I've mentioned. I maintain that to improve education in California we will have to do more than just insist that everyone try harder. "

Raven wrote on Jan 13, 2009 9:41 PM:

" and JR, according to the UC Davis Web site, the current cost per year 2008-2009, for a student is slightly more than 25k if you live on campus, 21k if you live off-campus ... adds up to more than 40k for 2 years by my old-fashioned math. "

psoren wrote on Jan 14, 2009 4:00 PM:

" Raven - Where did you learn to do your research, I suspect not college. I just check the UC Davis website...

2008-2009 Undergraduate California Resident Student Fees:
Fall Quarter: $3,166.20
Winter Quarter: $3,165.20
Spring Quarter: $3,165.20
Annually: $9,496.60

Please tell use where you found your numbers?

I found mine at:
http://www.ormp.ucdavis.edu/documents/studentfees/current/ugres_fees.pdf "

a teacher wrote on Jan 14, 2009 7:29 PM:

" psoren - did you remember to add room and board, or do you think college students live on learning and sleep in the library?

The actual expense of college is more than the price of tuition. Don't be so obtuse. "

Raven wrote on Jan 14, 2009 8:40 PM:

" try this from the UCD admission pages,

http://admissions.ucdavis.edu/finances/cost.cfm

You are listing just the fees, the figures from this page also include all housing, food, books, transportation...the entire cost of attending the school...not just the fees. "

psoren wrote on Jan 14, 2009 9:38 PM:

" Really...

As a former college graduate from a State school, I am well aware of the other costs associated with attending college.

These just happen to be the same costs associated with every day living.

The thing is, I didn't go to school with very many students who took 2 years off in order to complete their higher education, most of them were working at least part time, if not full time! All this while taking between 9 and 18 units.

It is a competitve world out there... "

Raven wrote on Jan 15, 2009 2:03 AM:

" Those are the costs taken into account when one applies for financial aid, psoren, and by doing it part time, you still incurred the same costs as those who went full time, you just spread them out. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 15, 2009 6:35 AM:

" Again Psoren, you are being obtuse. Someone has to cover the living costs of a student, either the student themselves or the family of the student. Since students are not generally working they need a loan or a grant. All those little things add up. Ask any parent who is paying for their child's college. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 15, 2009 6:40 AM:

" Here is a quote from Scholarship.org:

"The average cost for tuition, fees, room and board at a four year public institution averaged $10,636 in 2002-2003. The average cost for tuition, fees, room and board at a four year private institution averaged $26,854 in 2002-2003. Although rates have increased, they do not represent a trend of accelerated rate increases." "

eischeid wrote on Jan 15, 2009 7:50 PM:

" i don't get the statement, "50% of our students are below average. That's the definition of average."
take for example there are three B students and one F student, then 75% of the students are above the average. lets not continue to motivate the good students, rather dumb down the standards so everybody can get that diploma....whether they want it or not. "

psoren wrote on Jan 15, 2009 9:23 PM:

" Obtuse:

1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

A teacher said, "Don't be so obtuse." and "you are being obtuse"

You can't say "don't be so (not quick or alert)" or "don't be so (not sensitive)"

Read the above definition of the word and then please use it correctly in a public forum. Especially while representing yourself as a teacher. I was also taught that when writing effectively to avoid using the same word twice.

Now, I did not dispute that someone has to pay for a students living expenses.

My point was that any student can cover his or her own living expenses and still attend college. I did, and I paid for my own books and tuition. So what is your point exactly?

Whether you attend college or not you still have to cover your cost of living. The additional cost of college in the grand scheme of things is minimal compared to the future rewards.

A little bit of advice for all those parents out there struggling to put your kids through college. Stop! It is most likely the worst investment you will make with your money.

Make your children figure out how to pay for college. Nothing motivates a student to earn better grades than knowing if they don't, they will be excluded from potential grants, scholarships and admission to the school of their choice.

Read "The Millionaire Next Door" by Stanley/Danko. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 15, 2009 9:32 PM:

" "did you remember to add room and board, or do you think college students live on learning and sleep in the library."

That's silly. If your means are limited then limit yourself to attending a college within commute distance. My kids did. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 15, 2009 9:40 PM:

" "The average cost for tuition, fees, room and board at a four year public institution averaged $10,636."

That's one way of doing it. But a student with limited means attends the local community college for two years, so you only pay for two years at the university. Also, Sonoma State is within easy commute distance of Napa. The student can continue to get free room and board at his parents house. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 15, 2009 9:49 PM:

" "Make your children figure out how to pay for college."

You have a good point. My parents were dirt poor and they were unable to contribute financially to my college education. As a result it took me six years to work my way through college. In the end it made me a better person than if college had been handed to me on a silver platter. "

Raven wrote on Jan 16, 2009 8:19 AM:

" whether you live at home and commute, or at the college, the expenses are still there....they don't suddenly disappear. "

John Richards wrote on Jan 16, 2009 4:26 PM:

" Raven wrote: "whether you live at home and commute, or at the college, the expenses are still there....they don't suddenly disappear."

Nonsense. What parent would not allow their 19-year-old college student to continue living at home for free? If that student, for example, eats his meals at home instead of buying them in the school cafeteria, the cost will be much less. "

Raven wrote on Jan 17, 2009 12:07 AM:

" JR, who bought the food the student eats at home? what about the clothes they are wearing, the gas for the car...the expenses are still there. The figure for a student living at home attending UCD and commuting to the school is figured at about 18k....but the costs are there regardless and someone is paying them. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 18, 2009 8:17 AM:

" Obtuse literally means dull and is often used as a descriptor for someone who refuses or is unable to grasp the facts.

JR and Psoren want to argue that their personal experience can be fitted onto the average person. It isn't so, and it doesn't change the facts of the average cost of education. "

steph wrote on Jan 19, 2009 5:53 PM:

" The opportunity cost of a college degree is in lost wages while the student does not work full time. (S)he CAN work many hours per week, but this can put quite a strain on studying and cuts into sleep and leisure time.

Then there is the added expense of tuition, which is quite high, and books, and possibly commuting OR renting a room.

One has to decide whether the investment is worth the cost. We have a local "celebrity", Marty Nemko, who has some interesting ideas on this subject. Google his name and see what he says. He's smarter and more experienced in this field than any of the rest of us.

Would you pursue a 5-year art degree at a private university? Only if your daddy is rich, or you're hoping to marry well. Otherwise, it sounds like a poor choice to me. My advice, if money is tight, is to spend a couple years seriously pursuing a community college AA degree, then transfer to a 4-year state university if you want a college degree.

College graduates with carefully chosen majors make lots more money than those with no degrees. If you're smart, the investment is worth the money and effort. And college can be a lot of fun. "

Raven wrote on Jan 19, 2009 9:15 PM:

" I had a great when I went back to school at the age of 42 ... a different perspective form a teen straight out of high school "

John Richards wrote on Jan 22, 2009 2:44 PM:

" Raven wrote: " who bought the food the student eats at home?"

The parents had no problem providing for that student's food when he was 17, why should it suddenly become a financial burden at age 18? Those incidental costs are not college costs but just plain living costs that would exist even if the student was not attending college. To ascribe those costs to the college education is intellectually dishonest. "

Raven wrote on Jan 22, 2009 8:30 PM:

" Food is an incidental cost? No, JR, it is intellectually dishonest to pretend the costs suddenly disappear because the student lives at home... part of the cost of a college education is the living expenses, including food. the costs are there while the student attends college ... the question is who is paying them. "

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