Why can't we call it Christmas Break?

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Sunday, January 04, 2009

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By ANGELINA GERVASIO

Not your average kid

"Winter Break" starts Dec. 13 for Napa schools, and most of the kids can't wait!

I know, as do most kids, that we have "Winter Break" to spend time with our families and celebrate Christmas without school getting in the way, so why don't we just call it "Christmas Vacation?" Oh, right, it is because if one group of people gets “offended” because they don't celebrate Christmas, we shouldn’t "hurt their feelings," so we have to change it.

Ridiculous!

In the US, 96% of Americans celebrate Christmas.

Less than 2% of the US population is Muslim, and almost 3% are Jewish, both of which don't celebrate Christmas. The other 96% is made up of around 23% Catholics, and the remaining 73% are Christian, both of which celebrate Christmas.

Even though I wasn't able to find the percentages for California, I would make a wild guess it would be about the same, maybe even with more people celebrating Christmas since there a lot of Latino/Hispanic people in California, and well, almost all Mexicans (and we know most of the Latino population in California comes from Mexico) celebrate Christmas as well .

Since it is obvious that the majority, by FAR, celebrate Christmas in the US, please tell me again why is it called "Winter Break"?

So many people are trying to make everyone happy, but that is impossible. Everyone has a different opinion, some are similar, some are the total opposites of each other. Why should we be re-inventing traditions so we cater to the minority's whines? Rather, treat them equally with respect and without changing our own ways and long time traditions.

I don't celebrate Hanukkah, but I enjoy watching people who do, and no matter what they tell me, I will only celebrate Hanukkah if I convert to being Jewish. We should not personally celebrate holidays that we don't observe or believe in since they are not part of our religion simply because someone else might get "offended" in some way if we don't.

I'm tired of having to give up things I believe in just to make a "handful of people" somewhat happy.

Since the vast majority of Californians celebrate Christmas, our three week vacation should be called "Christmas Break." Just like since the majority of Americans wanted Obama for president, he will become President!

Angelina Gervasio is a seventh-grader at Redwood Middle School in Napa. She writes when she's caught up on homework and mom says it is OK to do a new column. She can be reached by contacting Register Online Editor Dan Ross at dross@napanews.com.

289 comment(s)

steph wrote on Dec 4, 2008 4:14 PM:

" Whatever.

Call it whatever you want. It's in winter. Christmas and New Year fall in the middle of it. This year, Hanukkah falls in it. Who cares what you call it?

I've celebrated secular Christmas with Jews. I was just wished Merry Christmas by someone in India last night--was (s)he Muslim or Hindu? Not sure, but either way it was a nice greeting.

Angelina, seriously, aren't you tired of conservative talk radio yet? It's the same thing over and over and lots of kvetching and complaining. Real life is more complicated than right wing radio wants you to believe. You should try NPR now and then. You know, get both sides of the issues. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 4, 2008 4:49 PM:

" I always hear Christmas Break, not Winter Break but that may be habit. Personally I don't care what they call it, I celebrate Christmas with my kids and other loved ones.

Someone else, Bill I think, pointed out that it is really a matter of politeness. Yes the majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, but some don't. Winter Break is what they all have in common. Go home and celebrate your holiday of choice.

So Merry Christmas, Xmas, Hanuka, Kwanzaa, Festivas...

PS: I agree with Steph, broaden your horizons a bit. "

TrickleDown wrote on Dec 4, 2008 5:32 PM:

" Angelina, your numbers are suspect. According to your percentages for the country (which add up to just over 100%, so clearly has everyone included), zero percent of the country is neither Jewish, Christian, or Muslim. Please, please use sources for your information that are not straight from right wing blogs, Michael Savage, or Bill O'Reilly. There are actual facts and figures that can be found in libraries and on the internet with a little bit of work.

According to your rational, people who are not Christian should not celebrate Christmas? I think that many of the sponsors of those right wing talk shows you watch would not be happy with that argument as the buying of "Christmas" gifts by the practicing and non-practicing is a significant portion of their yearly revenue.

Also, who is asking you to give anything up? Have you had to give up calling it Christmas Break? Last time I checked, this is a freedom of speech still was applicable.

Finally, I will help you with why people sometimes call it winter break: the few weeks that are frequently taken off from school occur during what is termed the winter season in the northern hemisphere. This is similar to how when school gets out around June for a few months they call it "summer break"....because it occurs during the northern hemisphere's summer. There is actually a nice symmetry there. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 4, 2008 6:54 PM:

" steph and teacher-
You guys are missing the overall point. Reread the last 4 paragraphs and take the same idea and put it in different situations.

TrickleDown-
Actually, none of this came from a right wing blog, Michael OR Bill. I just google searched things like "Number of Catholics in US", cross referenced the number with different sites and came up with a percentage.

I was not assuming that if you were not Catholic or Christian you didn't celebrate Christmas, but those two religions DO celebrate Christmas.

You caught me though in that I didn't put in an "Other" Category. The percentage of Muslims in the US is around 1.67%, and Jewish is 2.07%. That leaves us with roughly .26% left over (Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, etc.) I should have included an "Other" category. "

pharper wrote on Dec 4, 2008 7:55 PM:

" Those numbers seem a bit skewed to me, too.

At any rate, I celebrate a secular Christmas with my family, as we are completely non-religious. But other holidays fall into the category of winter break. Why should we cater to only one religion? Does it really matter what we call it? Celebrate whatever you want during the holiday season, but call it what it is. It is the HOLIDAY season, not just the Christmas season, and being as how we are country made up of many different types of people, we should remember that everyone is different. Saying “holiday break” rather than “Christmas break” just allows us to encompass all faiths, and even those who do not practice a religion or celebrate a holiday.

And for the record, not all Christians even celebrate Christmas. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate any holidays. Some Amish/Mennonite groups do not. FLDS do not. I think you might be assuming quite a lot based on some questionable information. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:39 PM:

" Angelina. I can read. I got your point. The vast majority of Americans (BTW, you need another source for your numbers on religion. Somewhere between 4-8% of Americans are atheists) are Christian and celebrate Christmas, so why change Christmas Break to Winter Break.

First. Your premise "Why should we be re-inventing traditions so we cater to the minority's whines?". I grew up in NYC. When I was your age, there were more Jews in NYC than Israel. I have never heard any of my numerous Jewish friends say "darn Christians why do they own those 10 school days we get off around New Years".

Who is whining? Where are these legions of people complaining? I'm sure there are some, there are always people who are going to complain about a non issue. However, the only place I hear this as an issue is on right wing talk radio.

Second. What is wrong about trying to find the most inclusive message. We live in a diverse society, everyone can agree to Winter Break. Personally for me it's the "2 weeks that I don't have to get up at 5:30 AM or grade papers". "

steph wrote on Dec 4, 2008 9:48 PM:

" teacher, stop it!

I keep agreeing with you!

Yes, especially the part about being polite. I work with a lot of Jewish people. I wear my Christmas apparel and celebrate Christmas, but I don't assume that everyone around me is the same as me. I love to hear about other people's traditions. Middle Eastern people I work with tell me that they celebrate Christmas as an American holiday, not as a Christian celebration.

I really think this is a non-issue. Except with Hannity and Savage. "

steph wrote on Dec 4, 2008 9:50 PM:

" My atheist father LOVES Christmas. "

Raven wrote on Dec 5, 2008 5:46 AM:

" dont ya hate that steph, when you unexpectedly agree with someone...Christmas has passed way beyond being a simple religious holiday, talk to any merchant about how important it is to their business, it is, whether Christians like this or not, a secular holiday. Enjoy it as it is, in any way you fell comfy. Happy Holidays now where is that egg nog?

(btw, you might look at some different sources, for example, 24.5 percent of American may be Catholics, but they make up 32 percent of those who call themselves Christians, and last time I checked, Catholics were Christians. and the number of Christians has a whole has dropped from its high in the early 1960s. "

Hear Ye wrote on Dec 5, 2008 7:39 AM:

" If you celebrate Christmas for the right reasons then this is a non-issue. You'd be too busy celebrating the birth of Jesus and probably your personal relationship with him instead of worrying about what your time off is called. I'm Christian and celebrate Christmas and could care less if its called Winter or Christmas break for students. It's whatever you make of it. "

steph wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Ha! Just listened to an advertisement on the radio for a hardware company that is selling "holiday decorations" so you can have a "holiday wonderland" in your home.
Last time I checked, none were Hanukkah decorations--not big-sellers.
I do agree that political correctness for the sake of overarching politeness does get a little silly, and I would be willing to bet that those laughing hardest are those who we're afraid of offending. A Christmas tree is marketed to and bought by those who like Christmas trees. No need to change the name. But this is not the result of some conspiracy against Christianity--it's just an attempt to be more inclusive, which is really nice. Or, it's a lame attempt to sell more trees to people who don't celebrate Christmas, as if changing the name of the decoration makes it something else. And that makes me giggle. "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:49 AM:

" The argument that you can call it whatever you want works both ways. If the vast majority wants Christmas Break then that's what it is, and what's wrong with that? This PC business has gone way too far when we have to be stifled for something as joyous as Christmas. No one is forced to celebrate Christmas. If you're not Christian you get some paid holidays or a break from school. This is a bad thing? Another big load of donkey manure being dumped on us.

Calling Christmas by some other name so some ambiguous person doesn't get miffed is just another version of the typical leftist "shut up" that they cry out whenever anyone who doesn't buy into their distorted reality wants to speak. It's way past time to put a stop to that idiocy. Party of inclusion? Humbug! "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Dec 5, 2008 10:01 AM:

" Christmas is not the only holiday in the season... get it?

The government is required to keep out of religious dogma so it seems sensible to come up with a religion-neutral term for the break period.

But there are a few folks who still have no life unless they rant at other people about the phony War on Christmas.

No wonder Jesus reserved special scorn for phony religiousity.

True followers of Jesus would spend their time in quiet good works (let not the left hand know what the right is doing) instead of being unpleasant reminders of how far from Jesus' teachings some have fallen.

~Ruff "

a teacher wrote on Dec 5, 2008 11:23 AM:

" PPF: You present a straw man argument. You are implying some left wing/democratic plot to kill Christmas that doesn't exist. There are no legions of "miffed" people. No one is changing the name of Christmas.

All I see is recognition that we don't live in an exclusively Christian nation any more. Happy Holidays covers everyone. Winter Break is just that, 3 weeks off during winter. Celebrate Chrismas (or whatever) if you want.

Now stop puffing up over nothing, Santa is watching. You don't want him to ask the reigndeers to leave you something extra in your stockings... "

a teacher wrote on Dec 5, 2008 11:25 AM:

" And Steph, we actually wind up on the same side of many issues, if you think about it.

Anyway, 'tis the season... "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Dec 5, 2008 1:22 PM:

" a teacher: if there are no legions of miffed people, then what's all the fuss about? Why are we even talking about this? It would be Christmas Break and that would be that, end of story. Who, exactly, are we trying to please? A small group of crabby people? Scrooge?

Yes, I am implying a left wing plot to discourage those who call it Christmas. The left is determined to push aside or steamroll over anything that keeps them from pushing their agenda. When you look at those who are trying to ban Christmas, the vast majority of them lean at varying degrees to the left.

ruff, as usual you are way out wrong. It has nothing to do with phony religiousity (?) I haven't been to a church in years. Do you think it is only hardcore religious people who want Christmas? Well, here's a news flash - there are a lot of people of varying degrees of 'religiousity' who like Christmas to be Christmas. And for all of you who say it doesn't make any difference what you call it, then how about calling it Christmas like it always has been? That's what the significance of the holiday started from. If there are other holidays, those who want to call their holidays by their own name won't get any argument from me. So why don't they leave mine alone? Why am I getting this anti-Christmas manure forced on me just to please someone who doesn't care what it is called, as long as it's not Christmas? Bah! Humbug! "

a teacher wrote on Dec 5, 2008 6:14 PM:

" PPF: Perhaps rather than trying not to ruffle feathers, they are trying to make more people feel welcome.

As for the vast left wing conspiracy, keep spouting that nonsense. I need a laugh. "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Dec 5, 2008 8:57 PM:

" a teacher: glad you enjoy the humor. Of course lefties pretend like this isn't happening, like the sargeant who said "I know nothing" and lefty denials have the equivalent meaning. Answer this: who else would be pushing this PC disrespectful garbage?

I went to a high school with a very large percentage of Jewish people in its district, along with various minorities and the rest of us flamingos (not really). We all got along pretty well. The only problem I found was the pretty Jewish girls wouldn't go out with me because their fathers said no (I didn't realize my reputation was that bad). OK, back to the story. I would wish my Jewish friends 'Merry Christmas' and they would wish me 'Happy Hannukah' and everyone was cool with it. We were wishing them the best of our holiday and they were wishing us the best of theirs. This was so much more sincere and meaningful than some empty PC 'Happy Holiday' slogan that conveyed nothing.

So why now is all that so horrible? Why can't people be happy without trying to make out something that is not there? Why can't I sincerely wish a Merry Christmas to everyone, and if someone responds with 'Happy Kwanzaa' that would be a happy exchange to me.

If anyone doesn't want to have a Merry Christmas, they don't have to have one, I won't force you. If you don't like my simple and honest greeting, you don't have to respond, or you could reply Bah! Humbug! if you want to.

But do not - DO NOT tell me to shut up or [fake Bill Clinton accent] "yall've got to relax and just let this happen".

Another example of change we don't need. "

Paddy wrote on Dec 5, 2008 11:26 PM:

" Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night! "

winemd wrote on Dec 6, 2008 7:58 AM:

" There are the occasional atheists who are offended by Happy Holidays too (comes from Holy Days). So I guess we are down to Happy Days ;-). Seriously, though, isn't everyone trying to wish each other well during this season? We can just take good wishes in the spirit in which they are offered. That being said, I am indifferent about Winter Break. We have summer, spring and winter break, which makes reasonable sense to me. "

ReneeFannin wrote on Dec 6, 2008 1:04 PM:

" What the world needs right now are more efforts to include and less to exclude. The winter break is centered around the Christmas Holiday because the majority of the people do celebrate Christmas. If you allow a "Christmas break", why not then a "Hanukkah break" or Kwanzaa break". That is why it is called Winter break for all. However, you may take your winter break and call it whatever you like to suit the holiday that you celebrate. Knowing what you celebrate, I wish you a Merry Christmas :-)..and I do...but if I didn't , I would wish you a happy holiday!!!!! "

dannyhaszard wrote on Dec 7, 2008 1:26 AM:

" WHY Jehovah's Witnesses don't do Christmas?

I was born raised a Jehovah's Witness and of course we did not do holidays.

The real reason is the Watchtower leaders want us to be 'different' for the sake of being different.Jehovah's Witnesses are not 'happier' and are just as dysfunctional as families who do holidays.Jesus was not born on Dec 25th BUT he also did not have his second coming in the month of October 1914,which is the core doctrine of the Watchtower religion. "

misfit wrote on Dec 7, 2008 11:09 AM:

" Angelina please...Call it whatever you want. No one is going to beat you up regardless. Why are you already so wound up tight over a very trivial issue? Why the requirement that everybody believe as you do? I am Catholic. I could care less what the "Holidays" are referred to. Easter is now ski week probably because more families skied than gave a rip about what Easter meant. There are more pressing issues in this world, one being our finding a way towards more inclusiveness rather than searching for ways to separate us. Give it a rest please. You will be bringing more peace to the world and to your own life as well. "

steph wrote on Dec 7, 2008 6:17 PM:

" Trader Joe's was playing...omg...CHRISTMAS MUSIC today!

GAH!

But I looked everywhere and didn't find a single protester. "

fmmt47 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 7:36 PM:

" If the government is supposed to stay out of religious dogma then why is the National Federal Holiday officially named "Christmas"? Uh, isn't the intent of the holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus? Why can't I wish my friends and co-workers "Merry Christmas" without someone being "offended"? Whats wrong with all of you people? "

steph wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:55 AM:

" For our family, the intent of the holiday is to decorate the house with a tree and lights and beautiful ornaments, and then get together with friends and family to have dinner and exchange presents. We do have a manger as a formality, to remind us of the holiday's origins.
fmmt47, you can be as pleasant as you want to those around you, and extending greetings from your culture is a nice gesture. Go for it! If someone gets offended, try to feel sorry that they are so burdened with grief and anger like that--must be so unpleasant.

Oh, I believe the federal holiday is named after the celebration that most citizens of the US will observe. It is not a mandate to celebrate Christmas. Many people will be working (for overtime pay?) on Christmas day, or not working, but going about their usual business. Remember to thank them if you see them working--and wish them a MERRY CHRISTMAS! "

Sandra wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:09 AM:

" I do not have a problem with calling it winter break....but it goes farther than this. I only have personal experience to draw from, but at my kids elementary school they were not allowed to mention any religious conotations around christmas. For example at the "winter program" they could not sing "Away in the Manger", but they could sing Hannakah songs, and Santa songs, and Kwanza songs.
Why? Why was christianity removed from Christmas?...OOPS, soryy..."WINTER PROGRAM".
I am not Christian, but I as I said I do not have a problem with being inclusive, so why is Christianity excluded???
If this was not the point of Angelina's thesis, it should have been. It is not so much that we are making room for other views, but they we are systematically removing the Christian view. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:52 AM:

" fmmt47, when was the last time you told someone Merry Christmas and they were offended? I would say that if some one became offended at that it says a lot about THAT person, but nothing about this issue. "

winemd wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:23 AM:

" Sandra - I agree. I think it is to everyone's benefit to learn about diverse beliefs, even the majority. I am always interested to learn about others' beliefs. Schools teaching about religion is not the same as schools teaching religion. "

funnyme wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:00 PM:

" Sandra,
That is EXACTLY the point. Removing CHRISTMAS and replacing it with "Holiday" or "Winter" celebrations makes it all exclusive and not inclusive.
It is obviously and clearly that is a religious celebration, and it just happens to coincide with a few other religions' celebrations (whatever those might be). What a better opportunity to "enrich" our lives by learning and sharing them with the rest of the community, it doesn't mean we will change our own convictions, but re-enforce our own convictions and beliefs.

If you want to keep religion out of the government, then if you are a "public servant" (bureaucrat, I think it would be also called) show up to work!
Every Public Office is closed on Christmas Day! How's that?

Problem is, there's always the "insecure" out there who wants ALL removed because he/she can't identify with any...Imagine a world like that!

Merry Christmas!

Don't forget to write your letter to Santa...uh-oh...Have you been naughty or nice? "

glenroy wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:18 PM:

" EXCELLENT.....!

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR.... "

a teacher wrote on Dec 8, 2008 3:13 PM:

" Your argument is illogical and a little dishonest. To say that calling the Christmas Holidays is exclusive because you have substituted the word "winter" for "Christmas" is logically false. Christmas belongs to a group of holidays. To call it the Winter Holiday includes all of the other holidays, to call it the Christmas Holidays excludes all the others. Your real argument is: since the majority of us are Christians, we shouldn't make accomadations for those other religions who are in the minority.

Your other point about "insecure people" is a straw man argument. You are inventing a scenario that doesn't exist so that you can tear it down and validate your position. Who are these insecure people who are complaining?

Now there are some groups that make an issue of religion in the "public square". I think most Americans just ignore them. It seems to me that most of their arguments break down to no religions should be recognized. They may have a point, but who cares.

I have lived in lot's of places where I was an outsider. In the "bush" in Kenya, on the Lower Brule Indian Reservation, in the deep south. I never expected people to honor my traditions, or insisted that they include me. However, when the rules were bent or courtesy prevailed, I always apreciated that I was included.

All this is an argument against changing traditions and a refusal to accept that we now have other religions in our midst. It is good manners and an exercise in good will to be inclusive during a season of common holidays.

Isn't that the Cristmas message: Peace on Earth and good will towards all. "

winemd wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:20 PM:

" a quote: In the old days, it was not called the Holiday Season; the Christians called it 'Christmas' and went to church; the Jews called it 'Hanukkah' and went to synagogue; the atheists went to parties and drank. People passing each other on the street would say 'Merry Christmas!' or 'Happy Hanukkah!' or (to the atheists) 'Look out for the wall!' ~Dave Barry, "Christmas Shopping: A Survivor's Guide" "

pharper wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:20 PM:

" I love Dave Barry. :)

I mean, frankly, I usually wish people "Merry Christmas," if only because it's what I celebrate and it's kind of inadvertent. But I still call it the "holiday season." Why exclude people if you don't have to? It's nothing to do with any kind of agenda or wanting to eradicate Christianity. It's just polite. After all, we do live in the melting pot. "

sammy wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:02 AM:

" I would just like to add that in this time in our lives with all the traditions being changed that it is important now more than ever to uphold within your families your belief and to stand strong as a family. It just isn't the simple life it once was when we were children, and as I tell my children,......if we don't stand for something, we will fall for anything. For us it is Christmas because of our dedication to Christ,.... it is a birthday celebration, whether Christ was born on Dec. 25 or not, we celebrate. The actual date doesn't matter to us in our family as we have family members who have no idea when they were born yet we celebrate them. It's good to take a time in our lives to celebrate His miraculous birth. "

funnyme wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:20 PM:

" teacher,
I am sorry YOU didn't get my point!

People like you and so many others who believe that by "re-naming" (or re-inventing) a very specific celebration will allow to accommodate and include everyone else's who MIGHT just happen to have "something" to celebrate" and it just happens to be just around the same time... Bullfeathers!

It is Christmas, it has been Christmas for many many years for many many people (all over the world if you want to go global).
If anyone else has something to celebrate, by all means, bring it on. Share it if they wish and we will decide whether we join in the celebration or not. No need to change it, but choosing.
By re-naming with the goal of being "all inclusive", you are just being all exclusive of everything. Being ambiguous so just not to be judge neither way is a sign of being insecure, to me that is.
It is not about NOT "bending rules" or NOT being courteous at all, it's political correctness at its best (kind of cowardly if you ask me).

I am not suggesting that ONLY Christians/Catholics celebrations should be recognized as the ONLY CELEBRATION, at all. I am encouraging to celebrate whatever it is there to celebrate, just don't make an effort to re-name it. Call it what it is!

Take a deep breath teacher!

You say:
"Isn't that the Cristmas message: Peace on Earth and good will towards all."
(It spells Christmas, btw)
And that is exactly why in this MELTING POT of many races and religions is important we wish from the bottom of our hearts MERRY CHRISTMAS!
...and yes A HAPPY NEW YEAR! "

funnyme wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:26 PM:

" winemd, pharper, sammy,

Thank you for GETTING the point!

Merry -and fun- Christmas to you all! "

Hear Ye wrote on Dec 9, 2008 3:15 PM:

" Who's talking about changing the name of Christmas? I thought this was about a 2 or 3 week break from school that kids get? "

db76 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 5:46 PM:

" seriously, the things that people get upset about amazes me. Anyways, with all this global warming, there will be no WINTER in a few decades and we will have to go back to calling it Christmas Break. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:18 PM:

" db76-
Please say your kidding me. Global warming=cycle, meaning we have NOTHING to worry about. "

db76 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:28 PM:

" Angelina you are partly correct. If you look at the Earth's temperatures over last 5 million years (interpreted from Arctic ice core samples), temperature has fluctuated up and down. Cold spells were Ice Ages (about 10,000 yrs ago, then there was a mini ice age about 300 yrs ago). Human civilization tends to do very well when the temperature stays within a narrow range (mainly because of agriculture). Right now, we are at the top of that range. We will see, probably within 50 years, if we can adapt if the when the average global temp exceeds that range. Man made or a natural cycle, we still should worry. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 9, 2008 8:01 PM:

" Funnyme: when Angelina said virtually the same thing - "You guys are missing the overall point. Reread the last 4 paragraphs and take the same idea and put it in different situations.", I chalked it up to the way 12 year old children often argue. That is, if aren't persuaded by their stellar logic, you obviously aren't listening, so they say it louder.

I understand your argument, I simply don't agree with it for the reasons I listed. Go ahead and be angry that someone went and changed the name from Christmas to Winter Break. That's what you guys do, you find a non issue to be outraged about. Have a good hissy and then move on to the next one (Why did they change the name Easter to Spring, it's the WAR ON THE EASTER BUNNY!").

For the record, as I said previously, I call it Christmas Break just out of sheer habit. Personally I don't care what they call it, to me it's "the two weeks I have off from work".

So, Happy Festivus, take a chill pill... "

pharper wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:48 PM:

" Sources, Angelina?

And teacher, I second that emotion. =D "

sweetgrape14 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:33 PM:

" We call it "Winter Break" because NVUSD is a public school district and is therefore operated by the sate. And there is that important little law of "separation of church and state" in the U.S. and that is why we don't call it "Christmas Break" because Christmas is a Christian holiday.

You can call it "Christmas Break" if you choose so, but out of respect for everyone the school deems it "Winter Break."

So yeah, open your mind and stop being so ethnocentric about it. It's three weeks off! Um HELLO!!! I don't care if they call it "Bobsled Break." "

sammy wrote on Dec 10, 2008 8:05 AM:

" geesh it's so confusing,.......if Christmas is a religious holiday and the state divides religion and state then what the hey is the upheaval over marriage verses domestic partnership. If marriage is a religious experience, what does the state have to do with it ? Geesh,.... this is confusing. I don't want the state involved in my Christmas and Easter, but I want them involved in my religious marriage ? I'm totally confused. "

misfit wrote on Dec 10, 2008 8:42 AM:

" Poor little Angelina...By the time she reaches voting age, she is going to have spun herself into quite a tizzy over all of O'Reilly's non-issues. Angelina...it's time to understand what all of these strong emotions, defensive, chip on the shoulder issues, do to one's body. It's not good for the blood pressure or for your relationships for that matter. Let gooooo.... "

Sandra wrote on Dec 10, 2008 9:03 AM:

" Sweetgrape14,
If what you say is valid, then please explain why Christianity is excluded from NVUSD winter programs, but Kwanza, Ramadan, and Hannekuh are included in song and celebration. Oh and Santa (the material god) is also included....But No, "Oh, Holy night", no "Away in the Manger"...but plenty of song and festivity celebrating other religions. Where is the separation of church and state?
If we are being INCLUSIVE, why is Christianity EXCLUDED?????
Also, I think you misunderstand what "the separation of Church and State" means. My understanding is that there will be no State religion dictated to people that they must follow. People are allowed to be at school and engage in prayer if they wish, no matter what their religion. HENCE, it is allowed to celebrate Jewish religious holidays, Muslim religious holidays, Kwanza, etc. And it is done quite often at "Winter Programs". SO, again I ask, WHY is CHRISTIANITY EXCLUDED from the Winter programs?
In my mind the real issue is the exclusion of Christianity while other religions are included, not whether we call it Christmas break, or winter break.
None of these posts have addressed that question with any valid argument that I have seen. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 10, 2008 9:11 AM:

" Misfit
Quit being so condescending. Angelina has a very valid point, and your denegration of her point only reflects on yourself.
As I said before, It is great to be inclusive of other beliefs, so why do we EXCLUDE Christianity?
After all, traditionally we have been a Christian country that allows any other religion to coexist with it.
So I have to wonder at why we are systematically removing Christianity from any mention in our schools, while we are including all of those other religions?
I ask this question from the standpoint of a non-christian.
Ans so far no one has addressed this.... "

steph wrote on Dec 10, 2008 10:37 AM:

" My son is singing with the Napa High Choir tonight--lots of Christmas songs! Not true that Christmas is removed from the schools.

Now, I just read of an incident in North Carolina--an "attack" on Christmas. One Jewish mother tried to have a Hanukkah song added to the Christmas program at a public school and was turned down. So she objected to the song "Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer", and now she's the subject of scorn. Most news stories are not reporting the whole story--it's just one mother who doesn't want any reference to Christmas, if you don't dig any deeper.

Well, I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this community can't support a little girl who has a different religion. I think it's just sad, and I've never heard of such insensitivity. "

TrickleDown wrote on Dec 10, 2008 11:03 AM:

" Sandra: It sounds like all religions are getting billing at the shows, though for the record kwaanza has no religious ties. Christmas, as celebrated by the majority of Americans who celebrate it, incorporates Santa, flying reindeer, and a tree. Songs about the holiday are being sung and the Christians should be happy that they are getting their secret message across. The other religions you mention haven't sold-out their holidays in order to get mass appeal by inventing bunnies delivering eggs, etc., so singing songs about their holidays are probably going to be more religious as their holidays have stayed a little truer to form. It sounds like you want there to be songs about the version they commercialized and made popular and songs about the version where God impregnated a virgin? It sounds like we have an attempt at religious bail-out here for a religion that branded its product poorly and there have been too many bailouts recently. "

TrickleDown wrote on Dec 10, 2008 11:09 AM:

" steph---thanks for actual information from this year. I had a feeling that songs about Christmas were actually being sung at our public schools. In fact, though Sandra's posts seem to give the the impression that there is equal billing for all religions and holidays, I have a feeling that all of these programs are highly weighted toward the Christian holiday and that there is no lack of song celebrating that Christian holiday. The death of Christmas songs at holiday programs has definitely not occured. "

JimClark wrote on Dec 10, 2008 11:55 AM:

" It may be that the American Mind has gone mad. "

AmCan Mom wrote on Dec 10, 2008 1:45 PM:

" A memory from my childhood that made a very strong impression on me has come to mind during this conversation.

My family went to Mass at a large church in downtown Denver when I was growing up. Out front, every Sunday, was Betty, the newspaper lady, who always greeted us with a smile, who often had treats for the kids, and was generally considered a happy fixutre of our Sunday experience; not to mention my childhood.

Betty was Jewish.

The memory that stands out so vividly is one year as we were entering the church for Christmas Mass, Betty called out,"Merry Christmas!" and my dad called back "Happy Hannukah!".

I come from a very conservative, very traditionally Catholic family, and I still consider myself to be so; but THAT example by my father impressed upon me that while we need not agree with someone's beliefs, we need to respect them. Courtesy goes a long way.

Now, as for the original article; honestly, what impressed me the most about this article was the fact that the spelling and grammar was pretty darn good. Most of the time when we have local students posting on here I cringe and shake my head at what our kids AREN'T learning.

Considering the original TOPIC; while I am a big proponent of such things as "keep Christ in Christmas", why borrow trouble? Our world has enough. In this day and age, I think the best we can do is to set a good example for others and practice what we preach. "

winemd wrote on Dec 10, 2008 2:03 PM:

" I would be curious to get some facts about holiday shows. NVLA does not sing holiday songs at its Winter Shows. Can others weigh in about their schools? "

napabicycler wrote on Dec 10, 2008 3:10 PM:

" At my work, when we pick our ‘holiday’ cards to send out, they can’t have any religious-type of symbol on them, say ‘Merry Christmas’ or have a ‘Christmas’ tree. We even go as far as to make sure that the ‘holiday’ postage stamps we choose won’t offend (no Virgin Mary, etc.). I personally think we, as a society, go a little too far to cushion everyone’s feelings. "

steph wrote on Dec 10, 2008 4:36 PM:

" Why do we need to celebrate Christmas at school, though?

You know, I celebrate Christmas at home, some also have their churches.

What about all the Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim (or Jehova's Witness, etc.) kids who might feel a little railroaded or exluded if they have to be involved or conspicuously absent from Christmas celebrations at school?

Do you blame the schools, either, for being exasperated by the process of trying to include all beliefs or lack thereof? No matter what you do, there will be a parent on the phone to complain. In general.

Here's what I would do: ask each child to go home and discuss with parents, then come back with a song or small display/demonstration that highlights that family's culture. If everyone celebrates Christmas or doesn't recommend some other type of song, then it's a Christmas pageant. Or it could be a pageant with Hanukah songs, etc. Each family could really show off their culture. Or stay home if they can't handle that. "

Fire Mike wrote on Dec 10, 2008 5:47 PM:

" That's quite a letter, Angelina! What a great question: "'Why don't we just call it Christmas Vacation?'" Probably the best folks to answer that question are Dr. Glaser and the rest of the School Board. They may (or may not) have a really good reason for making that decision - have you asked them yet?

Whatever we decide to call this time of year, you might be interested in exploring the origins of Christmas. Did you know that lights and trees, and gifts and feasts and celebrations were part of winter festivities for centuries before Christianity was invented? Or that Christians didn't celebrate Christmas until the 4th century (and when they did start to do so, it was because they had adopted a pagan Roman holiday)? Anyway, the point here is that lots of people have had celebrated at this time of year, and even though the majority like to celebrate Christmas in it's "traditional" sense, the holiday is really much more universal than that. "Winter Break" seems to be a pretty reasonable name for a time that incorporates so much.

I'm curious, though: when you say, "I'm tired of having to give up things I believe in just to make a "handful of people" somewhat happy," just what have you had to give up? I hope no one has told you you have to give up Christmas - that would be both wrong and incredibly Grinch-like.

Albert Einstein said: "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." So, keep asking questions and keep writing (when your mom says it's OK).

Happy Holidays! Er, um, I mean Merry Christmas, Angelina! "

fedupinnapa wrote on Dec 10, 2008 6:26 PM:

" I think the funniest part of all of this is that it was not any anti religious movement that really started the trend away from Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays. The reality is it was business mostly big business; they wanted to be inclusive so they could attract customers from all segments of society. Somehow the hard right has taken inclusiveness and made it into an act of hate speech while the hard left has taken a reasonable idea and tried to extract every comment of religion from society. What a mess. "

winemd wrote on Dec 10, 2008 9:09 PM:

" I know that many elementary schools teach about Hannukah and play the dreidl (sp?) and explain the Kwanzaa traditions. Do Christian parents refuse to let their children learn about it? Typically, no. I don't think we need to celebrate Christmas at school, but I don't see a problem with teaching a class what the traditions are, especially since many cultural Christmas celebrations are quite different and very interesting. Instead they avoid all mention of Christmas, but not the other holidays. The few Jehovah's Witness students I know don't participate in certain activities (birthday parties, holiday parties, etc.). That is their choice and I have no problem, but I don't think that means that no one should learn about the various celebrations. "

steph wrote on Dec 10, 2008 9:32 PM:

" Well, the Napa High choir sang a LOT of Christian songs tonight about Jesus. Some secular Christmas songs, too. There was at least one Muslim in the choir and several Jewish kids. They did sing one Hebrew song, several songs in different languages from English.
Very, very nice. Very beautiful. "

steph wrote on Dec 10, 2008 9:32 PM:

" Christmas is not dead in public schools. No worries, everyone!

Good comment, fedup--I agree. "

smogone77 wrote on Dec 10, 2008 11:39 PM:

" Angelina,
do a search on Saturnalia and then get back to me. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 11, 2008 8:19 AM:

" Trickledown,
I know the origination of Kwanza. I understand it is not a religious holiday, but more of a cultural one invented by an African American in the 60's, or 70's in an attempt to reconnect with African roots. Funny thing is, Africa does not celebrate Kwanza. I was using it as an example of inclusion.

Steph,
Isn't the Napa high choir doing a Christmas presentation, and not a "winter" celebration? I am glad they were allowed to present what they presented. The point is that I believe in the Elementary Schools Christ has been pretty much removed, while other religions have been celebrated. That is exclusion, in my book.

Winemd,
My boys are 20 and 21 now. But both went to Salvador for all of elementary school, and Christ was NOT allowed in the winter performance. Likie I said before, Kwanza, Hannakuh, and just about every other mainstream , and politically correct celebration was represented in some way, but no religious themed Christian songs were allowed. Maybe things have changed since then. I wish some other parents would weigh in on this. "

opiniateen wrote on Dec 11, 2008 1:35 PM:

" Angelina, I understand your logic regarding the majority of people who celebrate Christmas, but the entire break is not for the purpose of celebrating Christmas exclusively. To call it “Christmas beak” would be inappropriate when the break serves such a vast variety of students. It would be like calling “summer vacation” the “July 4th break.” The same issue comes up for “Easter Vacation” which is now commonly referred to as “Spring Break”. Breaking the “vacations” up by season is far more appropriate and encourages each and every student to celebrate their own unique religions and cultures during their time away from school. . "

Raven wrote on Dec 11, 2008 1:43 PM:

" well said opiniateen "

coigue wrote on Dec 11, 2008 2:04 PM:

" You seem to be under the mistaken impression that we live in a theocracy, or at least in a country where majority can impose religion on a minority. We don't. Please read up on the Constitution. "

diehard4ever wrote on Dec 11, 2008 4:20 PM:

" Fire Mike-
We're actual studying medieval Europe in school, so we just learned that they used holly to decorate their homes and had big festivals not unlike we do today.

And, to answer your question, no, I haven't been told to give up Chistmas, but some people have decided that you can't say anything that might "offend" someone some how, so we start changing things. First it's just going to be Christmas and Easter break, but eventually other things will close if just a single person is offended by it. I don't want to accomodate to every minority. You can't make everyone happy, so settle for the majority. If one of the people at a party you go to is "offended" that you drank a glass of wine after 5 pm, because it's "against their religion" you should still have your wine because you want to. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 11, 2008 4:22 PM:

" OOPS! diehard still is me. Sorry....

I think my jaw actuallt hit the floor today.... we made CHRISTMAS cards for art. Not holiday cards, Christmas cards....maybe my teachers read my column. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 11, 2008 4:29 PM:

" smogone77-
Interesting. Very interesting. I wish they taught us about that at school, I mean were going to go into Islam for like the rest of the year (I'm not looking forward to it), but we can't learn the real origim of Christmas at Christmas Time. "

pharper wrote on Dec 11, 2008 5:40 PM:

" You said it, opiniateen. :) "

opiniateen wrote on Dec 11, 2008 6:42 PM:

" See, I knew we would agree at some point pharper =) "

Napagrrl wrote on Dec 11, 2008 7:26 PM:

" Sandra says, "...while other religions have been celebrated... Just because children are learning about other beliefs, cultures and religions, doesn't mean that any specific one is being "celebrated." The kids at our elementary school are singing about Kwaanza, Hanukah, Christmas, Holidays in general and family, as well as greetings in as many as ten languages. None is touted as best, nor are any "celebrated" as better than another. Very balanced. Even to me, a very devout agnostic. "

alucawanza wrote on Dec 11, 2008 7:52 PM:

" Schools are supported by taxpayers money. There is a separation of church and state. Schools do not celebrate Christmas or Easter because of this. It only takes one complaint to make big trouble. Some students do not come to school if there is a Christmas program...usuallly it's called a Winter Holiday celebration or something like that. Religious songs or hymns that celebrate Christmas are no longer taught. It's just another rule that teachers must follow. Poor Santa.... "

Sandra wrote on Dec 11, 2008 11:39 PM:

" Napagrrl ,
Somehow I always thought of a winter program full of songs, plays, dance, etc. as somewhat of a celebration. The fact that Christ was totally left out while Jewish holidays, Kwanza, Ramadan, etc were put in kind of made me feel like Christianity was EXCLUDED. I am not Christian, this is just my observation of what I saw all through my kids elementary school years. I really think there are a whole lot of people in denial when they claim the Christian religion is not left out, while other faiths are included. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning about cultures and religions. So why the ban on Christianity from my kids elementary winter programs? No one else finds it odd that we are accepting of other faiths and cultures, but we deny what most of our country believes and bases much of it's culture on? "

funnyme wrote on Dec 12, 2008 5:15 AM:

" Sandra,
I agree with you!

Some schools do it and some don't, I guess it will depend on how strong the administration feels about handling "complaints", I don't know.
Tuesday morning there was a "Strings and Band Performance" at one of my daughters' school. They played about four "holiday songs" nothing to do with any religion. It was nice but it felt "empty", just the joy to see our little ones "playing an instrument".

People like teacher or pharper want to believe that this is just having an "anger moment" that a "chill pill" will take care of, because after all "...Personally I don't care what they call it, to me it's "the two weeks I have off from work"..." (NVUSD gives three, weeks just to make sure people get enough time to travel in and out of the country to go back home and celebrate Christmas...I was told), to me it's a bit deeper than just having a fit.

I agree with Fire Mike, that it's us, the people who "adopted" the new trend out of "make everybody welcome and happy". Most people like to learn about other cultures, religions and its origins, I do, it doesn't mean we have to adopt them all or convert, right?

fedupinnapa, the more [celebrations] the merrier. I was delighted to see that we had a "Public Celebration" right here in Napa called "Annual Christmas Parade".

opiniateen,
The re-naming is what is wrong, in my opinion (and we all definitely have one!).
It certainly bothers me (saddens me describes it better) to hear people say "It's Turkey Day!" when they refer to Thanksgiving, and the same goes for the "4th of July weekend" instead of Independence Day!.

Different meanings, different reactions, different emotions. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 12, 2008 6:24 AM:

" Are we still talking about this?

I've been to ten years of Christmas programs for my kids. The program consists of some Christmas songs, some Hanukkah songs, some generic type holiday/winter songs, some songs in Spanish. Nothing overtly religious, although for many of those years the program was at St. John's Catholic Church. I don't recall hearing any Muslim songs or Kwanzaa songs.

WOW! This feels like such a contrived argument. It's like a married couple picking a fight just to inject a spark of passion into the relationship.

But we won't be making up and making out... "

Raven wrote on Dec 12, 2008 8:04 AM:

" the ban was more likely the result of overzealous schools officials ... religious music is a part of the western cultural history and has never been legally banned when presented as such...but when tied into what may be interpreted as an endorsement of christianity, that is where the legal grounds get tricky. "

misfit wrote on Dec 12, 2008 8:27 AM:

" Or Angelina...maybe there was no column to write in the first place. "

109823 wrote on Dec 12, 2008 11:25 AM:

" Let's see, Pledge of Allegiance, prayer in school and athletic events, In God We Trust on our $ and now "Winter Break". I'm all for cancelling the time off and just have students and teachers off for the "Holiday" only. Then there wouldn't be any confusion as to what to call it and everyone would have three more weeks off during the summer. Mary Krismas. "

Grits wrote on Dec 12, 2008 11:29 AM:

" As long as there are TESTS, God will be in the schools! "

Raven wrote on Dec 12, 2008 12:02 PM:

" lol, grits "

funnyme wrote on Dec 12, 2008 12:36 PM:

" Good to see you back Grits...How's your mom? "

Grits wrote on Dec 12, 2008 3:03 PM:

" Oh, FunnyMe, I'm so sorry I haven't been able to get back to ya'll. I am currently unemployed as well, and if you spend your time looking for work you are busy all day, WORKING to find a job! - your prayers made such a difference - it was miraculous! Not only did she survive the surgery (a miracle in itself), but the nodes tested clear! We did have one tough night of respiratory distress, but we made it! Thank all of you so very much and I look forward to seeing everyone at the next do!!!! God's blessings and peace.... "

funnyme wrote on Dec 12, 2008 5:25 PM:

" Grits,
So glad to hear the good news about your mom.
Sorry about your unemployment...Hang in there my friend.

I wonder if NVR would open a spot where unemployed people can (anonymously?) describe the kind of job they do, and who knows someone out there may have an opening.

Dan, would it be possible?
Kind of like a "help wanted" without the classifieds, maybe a fee after the deal is signed? I don't know, but at this time when so many people are letting go of their jobs it just seems the right thing to do. "

Balaton wrote on Dec 12, 2008 11:33 PM:

" All my Jewish friends have Christmas trees and none of them get offended when I say a Blessed Christmas to you or, Merry Christmas. Obviously they are not traditional kosher Jews but reformed Jews and I would think that most of the 3% of the population that you write of the US are reformed. I don't know any Moslems so I don't know if the have Christmas trees. Does anyone know any or could say something to that? "

skippert wrote on Dec 13, 2008 7:51 AM:

" Give me a break. Christmas is only one day out of that 3 weeks off. It is not Christmas break anymore, it should be called "A rediculous excuse for too much time off" Our kids don't need this much time off in the winter. All this does is cause our kids to have to relearn the first 3 months of school. It is not a help to anyone except the school system. Now they get there money for all those unexcused days. My son broke his foot and missed a week of school, I sent him with a note to excuse him, that was not good enough, I no longer have the say if my child should stay home. Only a doctor can make that call. "BS" , they sent me a letter that stated my son was a truant student. I looked up truant in the dictionary and it states " A student that stays out of school without permission." I'm guessing they need to change the definition in the dictionary. Whatever, just give them their money. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:44 AM:

" Raven,
You said, "but when tied into what may be interpreted as an endorsement of christianity, that is where the legal grounds get tricky."
And my point is why does this only seem to be a concern about Christianity and not the other religions?
This should be a concern to everyone as it singles out one religion. I am surprised many do not see this for what it is. We have let political correctness overrule our brains and good sense.
Is anyone familiar with the Mural incident at Napa high from a few years ago? It was similar in many ways, and the student artist had to change what he was painting.....Hispanic students were allowed to paint a mural of the Madonna, as it was viewd as a part of "Hispanic Culture", but this student was not allowed to paint a Castle in the clouds as it was viewed as "Christian Imagery"....Go figure. I guess mainstream Christians are not allowed to have any culture?
Or how about the School in Marin that had windows for each club to set up a display representing their club? The Christian club was not allowed to put a bible in their display. "

steph wrote on Dec 13, 2008 10:15 AM:

" I know of Persians who exchange presents at Christmas. One has a boyfriend who is Zoroastrian, not Muslim.
It's a multi-cultural world we live in. When everyone behaves, it's a beautiful thing! "

funnyme wrote on Dec 13, 2008 11:55 AM:

" skippert,
Christmas Celebration is not only ONE day (Christmas Day, December 25th).

Depending on the culture there are "The Twelve Days of Christmas" (12 days after Jesus was born) marking the arrival of the three kings with gifts for the newborn King. Some countries exchange gifts On January 6th instead of December 25th.

In some other cultures (Mexico for example) celebrate "Las Posadas" beginning on December 16th all the way through the 24th...

So, that is why it should be called "Christmas Vacation" and not "Winter Break".

That would really "embrace" many cultures with Christianity in mind...besides, the vast majority in the US celebrate Christmas (google it pharper!) "

pharper wrote on Dec 13, 2008 12:54 PM:

" Just because the majority of Americans are Christians doesn't mean the majority of people celebrate Christmas, which is the assumption Angelina made when she pulled her statistics off of Google. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian, and do not celebrate Christmas. FLDS are Christian, and do not celebrate Christmas. Some Amish sects do not celebrate Christmas. It may well be true that the majority of people celebrate Christmas, but until we know that for a fact, and not as an assumption based on religion, we can't base winter break off of it.

And be honest, funnyme - how many people do you know who ACTUALLY celebrate the 12 days of Christmas? I don't know anyone, even among my ultra-Catholic friends. Using that as an argument for why winter break should be called Christmas break is silly. I would venture to guess that of the people who celebrate Christmas, most only celebrate on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve.

Besides, we have spring break and summer break - why not winter break? It makes sense to break it up by season, as opiniateen said.

Actually, now that I think about it, all eight days of Hanukkah fall in our winter break. Since there's eight of it and only one of Christmas (as celebrated by most people), we should call it Hanukkah Break! "

Raven wrote on Dec 13, 2008 1:57 PM:

" you examples illustrate my point sandra...all were determined by someone, whether you agree with them or not, to cross that line....re the windows ... was there a Muslim club denied or a club devoted to any other religion allowed to have religious icon in their windows?

as for why christianity, it might have to do with the history we have in this country of trying to make all follow christian precepts whether they are christian or not.

and i will have to do more research on the mural before commenting "

Sandra wrote on Dec 13, 2008 3:27 PM:

" Raven,
The Christian club was the only club not allowed to display what they wanted....all other clubs were allowed free rein...
Is it possible you are making allowances that you would not make if it was anything besides christianity being victimized?
I think it has become politically correct for the liberal elite to put down Christianity. ( I am not inferring that is what you are, or that you are engaging in this, just making an observation as to the trends I see.) I cannot for the life of me think of any other reason for what is happening surrounding Christians to be happening. "

Raven wrote on Dec 13, 2008 3:54 PM:

" again ... if all religious clubs were treated the same ... and no other club was allowed to include religious symbols in their window... there is no bias Sandra ...

and sandra the same might be asked of you...are you raising an issue you wouldn't raise in a non-christian club were being involved?.. why is there an automatic assumption that one who disagrees must be anti-christian ...an unbiased look would probably show that christian groups get more leeway in the public forum than any other religious group in the nation. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Dec 13, 2008 6:05 PM:

" There were no Christmas trees in Jerusalem. Really. Or reindeer.

We always had a Christmas tree when I was young, and we sang religious Christmas songs, along with songs about people coming home from war, getting presents, etc. Usually we were just singing pretty songs that felt good to sing together with the tree all lit up.

The word "Holiday" was pretty much interchangeable with "Christmas". No one cared which you said.

Only later in life, when I stopped taking Christianity seriously, did I come to appreciate the meaning of that time of year. We say we're celebrating the goodness, generosity and righteousness of Christ, but it has really become a commercial event, not a holy day. And I believe Fedupinnapa is right in saying that the trend away from "Christmas" is more a function of business wanting to be all-inclusive to attract more customers.

What I celebrate now is what my ancestors celebrated -- by putting lights on an evergreen tree -- the end of the hardships of winter and the promise of the spring and summer to come. It's as archaic as celebrating the birth of Jesus, but just as meaningful to me. And it is, after all, the real point of the "Christmas" tree.

That the Christian right has made an issue of people wanting a more inclusive interpretation of the holidays doesn't surprise me. The fact that many who grew up accepting Christianity as their religion no longer buy it probably feels threatening to some Christians.

But the rumor that those wanting to acknowledge all holidays (or none) are trying to deny anyone their Christmas celebration is sheer fabrication.

Christmas tree or Solstice tree or shopping spree -- let it be, and enjoy! "

pinkflame wrote on Dec 13, 2008 6:53 PM:

" It will always be Christmas Vacation to me...by the time I'm dead it will be called just "vacation". "

Sandra wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:38 PM:

" Raven,
"are you raising an issue you wouldn't raise in a non-christian club were being involved?"...
Absolutely not. I have repeatedly said I am not Christian. I just think it is interesting that from my observations Christianity is singled out time and time again for ridicule. There is no outcry as when Islam is ridiculed, or when other political movements are ridiculed, such as the gay rights movement. Very few find it in themselves to defend the right of Christianity. I find that very interesting. It seems to me to be a huge double standard. As for the display window....It was to display the theme of the clubs...It seems to me a Bible would be a huge part of a Christian club, and to not allow it is discrimination.
I just wonder what people are so afraid of, or what it is that makes them think Christianity should not be given the same respect of other religions.
We are all part of the same world. I know many fine people, and a good portion are Christians, among other things. I imagine myself in their position. I think there is too much intolerance towards others. So, in that regard I would speak out on principle, not because I love Christianity, but because it is the moral thing to do. "

someguyinnapa wrote on Dec 13, 2008 11:01 PM:

" Really...

Cause the last time I checked it was like the year 6587 or some thing...

The Jewish Faith has been around longer than any other faith. To consider not including them would be some sort of tragedy. My wife and two sons are Jewish. We Celebrate Hannukah, Chirstmas and (Beacuse my wifes Birthday falls on Dec 23rd) Herry Birthnnukahmas all at the same time.

Besides... Santa Clause has nothing to do with the brith of Christ.

It's better to say Happy Holidays than to be a sepratist and say Merry Christmas. We are all humans here and we all have different faiths in the USA!

Next... "

someguyinnapa wrote on Dec 13, 2008 11:04 PM:

" ps your number are off and dont add up to 100%...

back to math and less writting in the paper for you! "

Raven wrote on Dec 14, 2008 1:18 AM:

" again sandra you never say...were any other religious clubs allowed to display religious symbols - if none were there is no discrimination.....and if the school has a policy of no religious symbols then why should a club be exempt from that policy because they are Christian...and explain to me how not being allowed to display a religious symbol is being ridiculed.

The moral thing is to not show favoritism to any religious group...which, without any evidence from you to the contrary, is what the school did. "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 14, 2008 7:09 AM:

" Raven-
You were right, my numbers were wrong. Thank you for pointing that out.

A 2007 estimate by the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) World Fact Book on Religions in the US Population:

Christians 78.5%
(Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%)

Unaffiliated 12.1%

None 4%

Other or unspecified 2.5%

Jewish 1.7%

Buddhist 0.7%

Muslim 0.6%,

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html

Wikipedia says 96% of Americans celebrate Christmas. I don't trust Wikipedia very much, BUT a Fox News Poll came up with the same percentage, therefore it must be right, unless of course the CIA, Fox, and Wiki are all part of some right wing conspiracy;P "

anticommie wrote on Dec 14, 2008 7:28 AM:

" When I was in elementary school in the 90's, Mt. George called it "Christmas Break." By the time I was a freshman at Napa Joke Highschool, it was Winter Break. Why? Because the NVUSD Admin are doing their part of the New Left agenda of destroying the traditionalist beliefs that made this country so great. I love the words like "inclusive" and "fair" that the left uses to persuade, if not force, people into their beliefs of multiculturalism. Us traditionalists, are looked upon by the "enlightened" lefties as outdated, brainwashed relgious sheep. I miss the days of Christmas Break and Easter Break, because those are the holidays that created those breaks.

One more thing......

Someone wrote that Christmas is a secular holiday, right? So if it is a secular holiday, why cant the government embrace it as Christmas?

Seperation of church and state is different than seperation of religion and state, or God and state. "

pbfallon wrote on Dec 14, 2008 8:16 AM:

" STEPH...I am a little late on this one. But, just had to comment. First of all, why is it that you and others always resort to politics?? Right wing?? Give us a break. So it doesn't matter what you call it? It matters to me based on why the name was changed. Kind of like, when I was a child, homosexuals were called another name. Not good enough for them..so let's rob the word gay from it's original meaning and apply it to the abomination.

Guess what!! I am not a right wing Republican. Just an American Citizen who is sick and tired of catering to every whim that surfaces.

Have a Merry Christmas! "

Raven wrote on Dec 14, 2008 9:22 AM:

" antipc, it does embrace it by making it a federal holiday... they don't call it the winter holiday last time I checked.

and again.....where can we find this new left agenda...so we can get a copy. "

109823 wrote on Dec 14, 2008 10:19 AM:

" Well pharper that's a whole new bag of fish. You want summmer break, spring break and winter break. You can't leave out autumn break or do we call it fall break? Don't want to upset some sect of the world by misnaming. How many cultures or religious groups or liberals are going to be upset now? Our country can now take the simplest of traditions and turn them into a holy war of words/opinions. Give me the simpler times, please. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:02 AM:

" Raven,
You miss the point..."if the school has a policy of no religious symbols"...wHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THE SCHOOL HAVE THIS TYPE OF POLICY? (oops, sorry, new keyboard and I keep hitting caps lock) That is the point. The school has no business of encouraging school clubs, and then making policy that would disallow a Christian club the right to do as every other club is allowed to do. The Christian club is not the SDS, or Al Qaeda, for goodness sake. What is so frightening about a bible? I think there is an agenda here that for some reason you are unable to see. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:21 AM:

" Anticommie --

Multiculturalism isn't a belief; it's a fact.

In your comment, you kind of substantiated what I had been trying to say about Christians feeling threatened: the fear that "Us traditionalists, are looked upon by the "enlightened" lefties as outdated, brainwashed relgious sheep." I think that's the crux of the matter. But it isn't necessarily true. Some athiests feel that way (my brother is an example). I never felt that way until the last 8 years, when I saw the sheep go against their best interests and the best interests of the country in the name of the fodder that had been fed them by Republicons -- "family values". But even so, I honor the right of the flock to celebrate the birth of their savior.

If Christianity doesn't seem to get as much warm fuzzy attention as other religions, it's probably because it's the dominant religion and already has its privileged place in our theocratic pecking order. It's the underdogs that need to make waves in order to be recognized. However, look around you. Go to any mall, any town, any neighborhood, and what you see are Christmas decorations. No one really wants to change that. Calm down.

(Although I would like to see less plastic....would that be depriving someone of their Christmas? Like, if we didn't have to have huge blow-up plastic snowmen or santas in sleds on people's front lawns? Am I discriminating against Christmas by saying that? Was Christ plastic? I don't think so.) "

a teacher wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:19 PM:

" Sandra. I myself don't have a problem with religious symbols in clubs, nor with overt religiosity in general. In situations with religious people I am respectful and courteous. Live and let live. I am an Atheist. I don't broadcast, but I don't hide it either.

I haven't noticed that sentiment returned. In fact, I have found myself singled out and discriminated against because of my atheism.

To me, the great problem with religions is that they foster an attitude of "us vs Them". They are by nature exclusive. Worse, they tend to think they have the right to enforce their views on others, whether they believe in their religion or not. Thus we have states like Kansas and Pennsylvania trying to force schools to teach Creationism, or Prop 8.

To me it's either Theocracy or Democracy, I don't see much wiggle room between them. If you want the former, all the Christian religious holidays will be observed and too bad for the rest of us non believers. If we are a democracy then I think we need to be secular and the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". "

anticommie wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:20 PM:

" della:

Multiculturalism:

1.Of or relating to a social or educational theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture.

2.The term multiculturalism generally refers to an applied ideology of racial, cultural and ethnic diversity within the demographics of a specified place, usually at the scale of an organization such as a school, business, neighbourhood, city or nation.

Where I have a problem with this IDEOLOGY is when groups of people (mainly the New Left) embrace these studies and forget about their own culture. I think that is one of the main points of Angelina's letter. The left will embrace any culture, and by doing so will often push aside the American culture. I'm not saying Christmas was founded here, but this country (as a whole for the most part) embraced Christmas and all of its meanings whether you are celebrating the birth of Jesus, or whatever, and brought it to a whole new level of appreciation. What is so wrong about what Angelina has observed? Because it doesnt INCLUDE everyone in this country? Not everything does, get over it. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:26 PM:

" And another thing. Public Schools don't "teach religion", they teach ABOUT religions. I eat lunch with the social studies dept. The curriculum in world history includes a survey of the religions of several important cultures, from Christianity to Islam to Confucianism. There is even a unit on the religions of the Mayans and Aztecs. "

anticommie wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:28 PM:

" Raven wrote on Dec 14, 2008 9:22 AM:

and again.....where can we find this new left agenda...so we can get a copy. "

Just do some research and you can figure it out. wikipedia has a great write up about it. "Radical Son" by David Horowitz is a good read about the New Left because he was part of its beginning.

Other than that just read any left-leaning authors like Noam Chomsky, Christopher Hitchens. Or you could sit in some classes at any college in this country to hear the agenda. Watch or read any speech by a Democrat in the past 30 years. All of these sources with give you the answer to that which you seek. "

pharper wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:32 PM:

" I don't "want" winter break, summer break, and spring break. We HAVE them. We even have a fall break - it's called Thanksgiving break. Perhaps "fall break" is a better term for that, although I think more people in the US probably celebrate Thanksgiving than celebrate Christmas, just because it is not specific to any one religion. That's only speculation on my part, though.

pbfallon - Those darn homosexuals! Stealing words away from us! Just like the African Americans - they should have been happy with the derogatory "n" words, because that's what we called them! Seriously, give me a break and take your ire at that somewhere else. It has nothing to do with this topic. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 14, 2008 2:00 PM:

" From Sunday's Washington Post:

"A less emotional, more productive response comes from Norman Jameson of North Carolina's Biblical Recorder, a Southern Baptist publication. In his Dec. 5 column, Jameson suggests that it might be better for the holy day if government limited religious displays in public spaces during the holidays:

During most of my life Christian friends have lamented that Christmas is becoming too secularized; it is losing its religious meaning; businesses have appropriated the religious symbols of Christmas and now they are nothing more than decorations to sell merchandise.

Saints have morphed to Santas; tributes are diluted to toys and holy days are simply holidays. And all this seasonal fiscal flavor is salted with crèches, camels and caravans; stars, sheep and shepherds; wise men, mangers and drummer boys.

If, as the English proverb says, familiarity breeds contempt, it is logical that Christmas symbols floating in the marketplace unattached to their religious meaning will themselves become meaningless. Can it be that when Christians advocate for symbols of faith in public venues that we contribute to the emasculation of their meaning?

It's a strong point, but we don't have to ask government to do for us what we already can do for ourselves. There are countless more churches than government buildings and many of them are more visible to passersby. Why make Jesus, Mary and Joseph share a stage on the road when they can star in so many places at home?" "

alucawanza wrote on Dec 14, 2008 3:09 PM:

" skippert: Teachers sign a contract to teach 185 days. The Christmas or Winter Break marks the end of a semester. Anyone can have imput into the school calendar. Attend the meetings, contact the school board. The 185 days can be arranged to fit or accomodate the public's need. Right now the district tries to accomodate the college's calendar and Advanced Placement testing in the High Schools. The AP testing cannot be rescheduled. The tests are given on the same day at the same time across the country. It won't help to complain here. Talk to the school board. They adopt the calendar. If you want more days in the school year...that is a state issue. Contact your state legislators or the Governor.
As to Christmas celebrations at school, I'd rather my children had an extra period of Math or Reading. They get cultural celebrations at home..
It is natural to teach Christmas songs to band classes and chorus classes. Achieving a multicultural musical program is probably in the state framework somewhere. It's on line for anyone who is interested. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Dec 14, 2008 3:53 PM:

" Anticommie--
I see where you're coming from; I stand corrected then. What I should have said was multiculturalism has already become a reality. Because, really, at this point, what's the alternative?

I'll quote Rosa Carson: "It values the diverse perspectives people develop and maintain through varieties of experience and background stemming from racial, ethnic, gender, sexual orientation and/or class differences in our society. It strives to uphold the ideals of equality, equity and freedom on which the United States is based, and includes respect for individuals and groups as a principle fundamental to the success and growth of our country."

Not such a bad idea, I think, as IDEOLOGY goes.

I'll also quote Esther Novak, from a Business Week article: "Understanding the nuances of this great nation's many cultures, and adopting strategies to address them on their terms, can help open or advance a company's fortunes, and perhaps even give it a first-mover advantage with these brand-loyal markets...."

Which takes us back to that issue of why the diversity at Christmas time? Because it benefits the businesses, that's why!

BTW I don't forget about my own culture--that's why I celebrate the Solstice and often call it Christmas but have attended in-laws' Hanukah celebrations and I really liked the Kwanzaa stamps a few years ago. I grew up in a multicultural society. We celebrated other cultures in the Navy base school I attended back in the 50s (That era of rampant liberalism). My family ate Swedish food on Christmas day, and we sang European Christmas songs along with Swedish songs. And sometimes, before and after the holidays, we even shopped!

You know what? We're all wealthy with culture.

Celebrate it! "

Raven wrote on Dec 14, 2008 4:45 PM:

" The common thread between all you mention, anti, is working to empower people who had now power. That is a good thing in my opinion. And that has driven the conservatives and those who want to maintain the status quo nuts for centuries.

and Sandra, the school didn't make the christian club do anything the other clubs didn't have to do, mainly follow school policy...all were treated exactly the same....they could have had a policy of all windows be painted in blue...as long as all the clubs followed the policy, where is the problem?

If you don't like the policy, get the school to change it but don't complain because the school treated them all the same...or are you asking for special treatment because they are a christian club? "

anticommie wrote on Dec 14, 2008 5:26 PM:

" Thanks Della! It angers me when (and I've literally heard people say) America does not have its own culture, due to the melting pot that it is. I always hear things like, "well in Canada they do things like this, and in France they do things like that." Well.... we do things here that are one of a kind, and that individuality of America as a nation is a wonderful thing. To study different
cultures is one thing, but when people try and apply different cultures to the ones that we have hear in America to the point of losing our own culture is unacceptable to me.

Like I said, when I was in elementary school it was called Christmas break. Then some politically correct school district administrator changed it to Winter break somtime in the 90's, so they wouldnt offend anyone. Well guess what? They obviously have offended some people otherwise we wouldnt be having this discussion.

Like Michael Savage says:

"liberalism is a mental disorder." "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 14, 2008 6:07 PM:

" anticommie,

Indeed! "

Bill wrote on Dec 14, 2008 6:10 PM:

" The reason it is called winter break is so people will have something nonessential to complain about. "

pharper wrote on Dec 14, 2008 6:24 PM:

" Liberalism is as much a mental disorder as conservatism is. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Dec 14, 2008 6:57 PM:

" Oh, man, anticommie! So after all that, you're now saying what I said reflects a mental disorder?

And the Christians feel dissed. Well, so be it.

There's just no use, is there? "

Raven wrote on Dec 14, 2008 7:39 PM:

" People have been calling it winter break since the 70s anti, my school, did it in 1969, if it wasn't till the 90s you heard it referred as that I would say it was a sheltered school district.

Angelina, again, no one is stopping you from calling it Christmas break or anything you want to. This is a tempest in the tea kettle by folks who want to wave the bloody flag over something. "

Napagrrl wrote on Dec 14, 2008 9:32 PM:

" 109823 wrote " Well pharper that's a whole new bag of fish. You want summmer break, spring break and winter break. You can't leave out autumn break ..."

Oh, no, 109823 and pharper: I have relatives who live where, in the schools there is, GASP!! winter break, spring break, summer break, and then, AUTUMN (fall) break! Wow!! A break for all seasons. And, this is in the Bay Area!! of California!! Wow! "

toobuff wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:06 PM:

" typical trend that is growing out of control in our country. a very small group of people complain about something and ruin it for the rest of us... "

Paddy wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:29 PM:

" Merry Christmas everybody!!

- and take a break, for Santa's sake. "

anticommie wrote on Dec 15, 2008 7:06 AM:

" Raven:

I hope those references have helped you find the New Left agenda reading you asked for. Problem is your beliefs are the same as theirs; therefore, you will not look upon it as an agenda, but the way the country should go. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 15, 2008 8:40 AM:

" Raven,
You are repeating yourself. I heard you the first time. You miss the point. It is not about what the schools policy "IS". It is that the school felt the need for that specific policy in the first place. It is a policy that only singles out certain types of clubs. How would you feel about policies that only singled out the 'Gay" clubs, or the cultural clubs? Is there a need for that type of policy that only applies to those clubs exclusively?
I would asume based on your logic, that your answer would be yes it is acceptable.
I think the policy is faulty, and I draw attention to it because it is just wrong. It is not about how I personally feel about religion, but about how I feel about respecting all others in general.

Teacher,
I do not disagree with you about religion. It is why I am not Christian, and why I reject religion in general when applied to my personal belief system. BUT, I have seen religion help a lot of people also. I believe in a higher power, and think that there are many paths to developing a relationship him/her. There are also paths we can choose to reject this, which is one you have chosen. It is about free will after all, and respect for others beliefs. I do not have the right to limit what others believe as long as they are allowing me to believe as I wish. Religion has always been about gathering other believers into your belief system. Sure, it can be annoying, but is not usually fatal, except in Radical Islamic circles, which is why I venehmently oppose radfical Islam. "

mominapa wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:28 AM:

" I happen to be Christian (Catholic) and celebrate Christmas. I say Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Season's Greetings - for no particular reason except that one of the will pop out of my mouth at the appropriate time. I don't care what you call it, how you celebrate it or what you do the next day - just do it your way and if you don't like the way someone else is doing it, don't do it that way. Have a nice whatever you call it. "

Raven wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:48 AM:

" Again sandra, as long as all cubs are required to follow the same policy, I have no problem...if a single club is singled out, then yes I have a problem with that, but the club was not singled out, all the clubs were prohibited from putting up religious symbols. ...but you are trying to make something out of nothing.

I think the school wisely choose that no religious symbols rather than get in the quagmire of which to allow; and you know as well as I do that if a religious club from some non-christian sect were to have their symbols up on a window, the christian groups would be objecting. Again, this is a tempest in a teapot. "

Fire Mike wrote on Dec 15, 2008 11:19 AM:

" Angelina - I'd like to get back to the original intent of your column, which was to ask why we call this time off "Winter Break" and not "Christmas Break." I think a number of folks here have addressed that pretty well - the salient point being that there are (and historically have been) many different celebrations at this time of year. Calling this "Winter Break" isn't catering to a minority; rather it's a way of being more inclusive. I'm all for that.

You made a point in a subsequent post that you "don't want to accomodate to every minority. You can't make everyone happy, so settle for the majority." But think of where we'd be if we always "settled for the majority": Women wouldn't be able to vote, and you most likely would not have the opportunity to stay in school after grammar school. Minorities wouldn't have the right to vote, or to protections in employment or education. The list goes.

One of our founding principles is that no one - whether majority or minority - deserves special treatment. Another idea that has informed American thought for more than 200 years is that we are stronger when more people are included in our institutions.
Admittedly, whether we call this "Christmas Break" or not does not rise to the level of the real issues I've listed above, but the point is that this is really an issue of principle. If by calling this "Winter Break" we make it just a little more acceptable for people of differing beliefs to talk about their celebrations - if we're just a little more inclusive of our friends and neighbors - I think that's a good thing. "

reason-ator wrote on Dec 15, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Did anyone change their mind yet ? "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Dec 15, 2008 12:39 PM:

" Sandra, you are being very obtuse.

The Constitution separates Church and State.

The founders recognized all the shennanigans that majority religious groups have practiced for centuries could happen here if they did not specifically forbid it.

So the founders did just that. They forbade government involvement in favoring or disfavoring a church or church doctrines.

The constitution does not separate 'clubs' and state. However, religious clubs would have to abide by the Constitution's demand to keep church and state separate.

NOT-SO-ODDLY, it has largely been Supreme Court rulings triggered by cases brought by minority religions such as Jehovah's Witnesses against overzealous governmental officials that have most advanced 'Freedom of Religion'.

That will probably be the same approach that will doom the anti-gay marriage agenda being pushed on the "My church is OK with gay marriage' faiths by several other large churches, notably the Mormons and the Catholic church.

A vaguely related comment - It's TERRIBLE that there is suspected arson in the $1 million dollar fire at Sarah Palin's Wasilla church. I hope that the criminals are apprehended and jailed.

Burning churches is a despicable act, it doesn't matter if it done in ALASKA or the deep south which has been undergoing a firestorm of black church burnings for years.

~Ruff "

fedupinnapa wrote on Dec 15, 2008 2:03 PM:

" As my father would say "Think before you speak" or in this case type. Everyone is complaining that Christianity is unfairly targeted compared to other religions. Look at the numbers the controversy is aimed at the largest target. If you are the largest segment you will receive the brunt of the comments if another religion made up the largest segment of American society they would take the brunt. It's not a conspiracy it's math and logic.

One secondary factor is however that Christian religion often has a large focus on "spreading the Gospel" or "Converting" people to Christian religions. Something the majority of other faiths do not focus on. When actively try and recruit and market your religion you open the doors to such controversy.

If you hold your faith as part of who you are live your life the way you choose it is unlikely people will bother you but if you wear your faith like a Prada bag making sure everyone you see knows you have it and what it is all about you open yourself to controversy. "

gatekeeper wrote on Dec 15, 2008 2:37 PM:

" Merry Christmas!
Because it's what the VAST MAJORITY "celebrates" in the US!
We are still in the US, right? So that means, it's still a "choice" NOT to participate in the celebration it if you don't want to.

Michael Savage is right about Liberalism.
I would say that Conservativeness is the antidote to that disease.

I am looking forward to the Chinese New Year celebrations...should they change the name to accommodate me since I am not Chinese? "

Raven wrote on Dec 15, 2008 3:06 PM:

" absolutely ruff...if they catch the criminal behind that burning they should give the harshest punishment available ... and the crime would also be eligible for hate crime status I bet.... "

Grits wrote on Dec 15, 2008 7:08 PM:

" Merry Christmas!!!! "

Raven wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:41 PM:

" hope everyone enjoys the upcoming solstice....;-)..and celebrates it in the manner they want. "

nappalachia wrote on Dec 16, 2008 5:57 AM:

" December 25th is a federal holiday. Therefore it is not a religious holiday.

And BTW, Catholics ARE Christians. But not according to the Focus on the Family crowd. "

ridiculous wrote on Dec 16, 2008 5:57 AM:

" Merry CHRISTMAS to ALL and to ALL a good night! "

NValleygirl wrote on Dec 16, 2008 8:56 AM:

" This letter cannot be serious...I mean "Winter Break", that seriously takes something away from your ability to celebrate Christmas, your ability to recognize Christmas, this is viewed as an attack on your faith?

Could we possibly find something more nonessential to argue about? This is the worst case of Chicken Little Syndrome I have seen in a while here on the NVR blog. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Dec 16, 2008 9:57 AM:

" Government is to remain neutral in matters regarding religion. Government is not to endorse or disparage religion or religious views. Therefore, it is very important to keep government and religion separate! The public square belongs to all Americans; therefore, religious expression ought to be considered inappropriate by government and/or its representatives on public property. "

steph wrote on Dec 16, 2008 10:14 AM:

" Wow, Angelina, 100 comments and counting.

Not bad! "

wyngyrl wrote on Dec 16, 2008 11:17 AM:

" Angelina, congratulations on your writing and doing very good follow-up research. As you can see, people have very different opinions and enjoy expressing themselves. Fortunately, in our country we are allowed to do that as well as celebrate however we see fit. I hope you enjoy celebrating Christmas and New Year's during your winter break from school. PS: I think you really meant Catholic and Protestant, when talking about those of Christian faith. Even within those two categories there are numerous approaches to theology. Keep doing your research - I'm sure you're a good student! "

winemd wrote on Dec 16, 2008 11:24 AM:

" Are students in a club representatives of government on public property? "

jersey guy wrote on Dec 16, 2008 11:32 AM:

" It should be called Christmas break, because we wouldn't have a break at all if it wasn't for Christmas being in December. "

Raven wrote on Dec 16, 2008 1:11 PM:

" Why not call it the sol invictus break?

Christians in the fourth century assigned December 25 (the Winter Solstice on the Julian calendar) as Christ's birthday (and thus Christmas) because pagans already observed this day as a holiday. As the dates of Saturnalia are not precisely coincident with Christmas, a more refined argument is that Christmas was set on the feast of Sol Invictus, which was on December 25, and which had supplanted Saturnalia. However, with many of the traditions of Saturnalia incorporated into Sol Invictus, it is possible that some of those traditions -- such as the exchanging of gifts -- were also carried forward as a part of the Christian holiday....from wikipedia "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 16, 2008 2:16 PM:

" Raven~
I am going to give a shot at your question " Why not call it the sol invictus break?"

Because 96% of people in US celebrate Christmas not sol invictus.
Because the majority rules, otherwise BO and all of his supporters wouldn't be celebrating a victory.

Madison Jay Hamilton ~
So why government employees and officials get Christmas Day off every year?

wyngrl~
Thank you. I try never to stop learning, and yes I am a good student (Made the RMS Honor Roll with 4.0...Yeaaahh!).

Different faiths in the US is very interesting to me so I might spend sometime doing further research during my CHRISTMAS break :)

steph~
Actually 145!
Religion is definitely a very important subject for all of us (believers or not), even if sometimes people say it's just a "tempest in a teapot" or a "chicken little syndrome".

nappalachia ~
What is the name of "that" federal holiday that is not Christmas?
My calendar says it's CHRISTMAS on the 25th! "

pharper wrote on Dec 16, 2008 3:01 PM:

" I beg to differ, jersey guy. Just as we have summer break, we would have winter break, Christmas or no. It breaks up the year; we have a break for each season.

This is really such a non-issue that it's bothersome. You're free to call it whatever you want. If calling it the "holiday break" somehow offends you (even though the term "holiday season" also includes Christmas) then you need to get your priorities straight.

But good idea, gatekeeper! Sling around insults at other people on the basis of their politics in true holiday spirit.... "

Raven wrote on Dec 16, 2008 3:10 PM:

" okay angelina, you missed the point...Christmas did not start out as a christian holiday...it was adapted by the church to wean pagans away from their celebrations...so the purely christian origins are a myth.
As far as the majority ruling, the vote on Christmas was when?

and a little tid dit of history for you, the fearless Pilgrims...those standard bearers of religious freedom, opposed the celebrations of Christmas, because they could find no spiritual references to the celebration.

and angelina, if you think the religious overtones are Christmas are under attack, don't look at the government or the schools, look at the merchants who have turned it into the biggest money-maker they have each year. So what many have been trying to tell you, is, relax, celebrate Christmas in the way you feel is most appropriate but don't try and tell the rest of how it should be celebrated and why. "

cavmpm wrote on Dec 16, 2008 4:16 PM:

" Oh my goodness, I am really sorry; but this is ridiculous I really wish that was my biggest worry is whether or not we should call it "christmas break" or "winter break". Come on; seriously? The reason it is NOT called christmas break is not everyone celebrates christmas, and that the break is not just for christmas celebration, it is for also for new years. Also look at where you live, more than half of our population are not going to celebrate what you celebrate. Why don't we try and focus our thoughts on more "important" matters........? Like how people all over the US are loosing there jobs, homes, cars you name it and are not going to be able to celebrate there holiday of choice this year? "

fedupinnapa wrote on Dec 16, 2008 5:41 PM:

" Angela,

BO was not elected by majority rule. America is not a direct democracy. We have an electoral collage. If we had a direct democracy Gore would have been president in 2000 not Bush. "

Balaton wrote on Dec 16, 2008 11:00 PM:

" Neither the LDSs nor Jehovah witnesses are Christians! check it out in the Encyclopedia of Religions in the library if you don't believe it.! "

anticommie wrote on Dec 17, 2008 7:19 AM:

" Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Dec 16, 2008 9:57 AM:

" Government is to remain neutral in matters regarding religion. Government is not to endorse or disparage religion or religious views."

The seperation of church and state argument can be interpreted however a person wants it to go. The government cant ESTABLISH a state religion, nor can it ABOLISH one either. So to me, if the government uses God in any governmental institutions (which it does) there is nothing wrong with that because more than one religion befief in God, or a deity of some sort, excluding atheists. In doing so, the government has not endorsed a church but realize that our rights are granted by something greater than man. When a school wont allow a religious club to exist, they are being unconstitutional because they arent allowing people to practice their religion the way they seem fit.

Raven, still ignoring me about the research? "

Sandra wrote on Dec 17, 2008 7:47 AM:

" Ruff,
omg...Thank you for my laugh of the week...You think I'm obtuse? ROFLMAO.....
Think what you will. Raven thinks what he will. I think Raven is niave, and does not, or cannot see what is happening concerning the sytemastic exclusion of mainstream Christianity in this country by the far left. I really do not think he would view it as a tempest in a teapot if the same tactic was applied to other legitimate movements.

Also, what you say the founders intended, shows an apalling lack of historical knowledge concerning how lessons and schools were conducted during our founding fathers times. Prayers were quite common in Schools, and in ther functioning of government .
The intention of the founding fathers in separating church and state was soley to stop a theocracy happening, and to allow the freedom to choose to follow a religion of your choice, or not, as the case may be. It was to prevent the government from adopting a state religion, and to PREVENT the kinds of things that are happening today concerning the exclusion of religion by anyone. Prayer in school is not illegal. School sponsored prayer of a specific denomination in Public school is. There is a huge difference. A school club set up by students for students who can voluntarily join does not fall under the jurisdiction of separating church and state. The fact that those of the liberal left are interpreting it that way is exactly what the problem is here. This is the problem Raven is unable to grasp. There is nothing Obtuse about my ponting this out.
But again thank you for the laugh. It was especially funy considering the source. "

Raven wrote on Dec 17, 2008 9:08 AM:

" more research, anticommie?... I have done my research, but with an open mind, and you are still trying to convince people that this is part of the vast communist conspiracy, a theory the vast majority of people also reject. The people you have cited have worked to empower people traditionally without power in our society, which to my way of thinking is a good thing. And the school in Marin did not stop the Christian club from existing, it merely made it follow the same rules as the rest of the clubs.

And again Sandra, you have failed to show any evidence of Christianity being single out for discriminatory treatment...the examples you cite in Marin have shown no treatment exclusive to Christianity but rather to all religions, and any objective examination will show that Christianity is far from being persecuted, instead, it has been the persecutor, more often than not, insisting on upon 'rights' and privileges it was not willing to grant other religions, making those who do not believe adhere to it.

Clubs of any kind must adhere to the rules and policies of the school where they exists, the school in Marin did not ban the club you speak of, they made it follow the same rules as the rest of the clubs. This is persecution in your own mind. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 17, 2008 12:40 PM:

" Raven,
We have focused on Marin schools because that was what YOU choose to focus on, while I cannot help noticing you have IGNORED the example I cited which happened right here at Napa High a few years ago. That one much more blatently exemplifies my point. You are only seeing what you wish, as you have chosen to ignore what happened right here in river city.
You also fail to see that a "RULE" made that only applies to certain types of clubs is discrimatory. So let's follow your logic and apply it to other types of Clubs. Hmmm...How about we all make a rule that gay and lesbian clubs are not allowed to mention homosexuality in their literature? OR, How about Ethnic clubs are not allowed to mention anything that has to do with ethnicity? How about the chess club not being allowed to display a chess board?
You are perfectly ok with all that? Because that is where your logic takes us. I am not ok with it. It is just dead wrong. It is persecution, and not just in my mind. "

toobuff wrote on Dec 17, 2008 2:36 PM:

" merry christmas, and the last time i checked, santa wasn't in the bible... "

Is it 2012 yet? wrote on Dec 17, 2008 3:09 PM:

" Merry Christmas... and a Happy New Year!!! "

Raven wrote on Dec 17, 2008 3:23 PM:

" okay sandra, first of all....the rule didnt apply to certain types of clubs...how many ways must it be said...it applied to all clubs, were any other clubs allowed to present religious symbols in their windows? Barring any evidence to the contrary, it was applied to all...there fore it was not discriminating against the christian club...any club wishing to put a religious symbol in a window would have been barred from doing so.

and if the school barred all clubs from mentioning it, it wouldn't be discriminating, wouldn't care for the rule but it wouldn't be discriminating....and the other examples, Sandra, you are reaching for straws...and again...if the rule is applied to all clubs equally it is not discrimination. It may be silly, but it ain't discrimination, all the clubs are being treated equally. "

Raven wrote on Dec 17, 2008 3:33 PM:

" a friend found the article for me and from what I have read, it does seem it was unfairly applied here, but to an individual and not a club....but I would say it was due to incompetence and not malice towards Christians. I cannot find out what eventually happened, was he allowed to leave the castle on the mural? "

Sandra wrote on Dec 17, 2008 4:56 PM:

" Raven,
Here's the story....There was a mural of the Madonna painted by a Hispanic girl....nothing was said, and nothing should have been said. Then a young Christian boy was allowed to paint a mural and when he started painting a castle in some clouds there was objections raised that it was christian symbology. It turned into a huge deal. The kid was harrassed by other students and was not going to be allowed to paint the castle in the clouds by the administration unless he agreed to change it. I believe he was the only one who displayed maturity...none was displayed by the administration, none by the objectors. He compromised and painted his castle on the earth. To a young high school student, it was just not worth the fight. What a message to send to our kids.
Now, my point is the rule to not allow religious clubs to display what their club is about, or individuals to to express their views is discrimination. It is also my feeling that no objections were put forth about the hispanic mural because it would of just been too politically incorrect to do so. Can you imagine the cries of racism? That is not ok, but it is ok to discriminate against a Christian boy. Why do you think that is?
It was wrong to stop him, while allowing the Madonna to be painted with out objections...the reasoning put forth by the administration was that the Madonna was a hispanic cultural thing. A bunch of B.S. if you ask me. As I said earlier, I guess Christians are not allowed to to display anything that focuses on what they are about in addition to not being allowed to have any culture. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 17, 2008 5:12 PM:

" Oh, and Raven I think you are sthe straw grabber here, based on your argument posted on Dec 17, 2008 3:23 PM. Because the point is there is no law banning the mention of religion on school grounds, or symbology to be displayed by clubs, or banning Christians from prayer, or Muslims, Buddists or any other religious group for that matter. The school over stepped thier boundaries by banning religious symbols from school grounds. Can you imagine the outcry if they said Muslims could not pray? People do not understand what separation of church and state means.
Your argument that it is a rule applied to everyone is a faulty argument. Because the rule is only applicable to religious clubs. There would never be a reason for the Chess club to display a bible. They invited clubs to display stuff pertaining to what the club is about. A Bible should be allowed to be displayed by a Christian club.
Your logic is sort of like the old nursery rhyme where the kittens have lost their mittens. They ask their mother if they can go swimming. She says yes, but do not go near the water. "

Raven wrote on Dec 17, 2008 6:14 PM:

" Actually Sandra, schools have and always have had the legal authority to set standards for any and all organizations they allow on campus. And they also have the legal authority to determine what if anything can be displayed on schools grounds. Check the education code.

Students do not have the same rights of expression that adults do, especially on schools grounds and the courts, including the supreme court, have said this on numerous occasions, the last being the case concerning Joseph Frederick, a high school student who was suspended for holding up a 14-foot banner that read “Bong Hits 4 Jesus” on the sidewalk next to his school at the 2002 Olympic torch relay in Juneau, Alaska. The court said the school had the authority to control his speech, even off campus. This was the Rehnquist Court btw, a conservative court.

Have a nice day and enjoy the solstice. (Now, where did I put my mittens) "

Dirty Napkin wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:55 PM:

" Merry Christmahaniquanzica!!!

I hate to say happy holidays, so thuis is what I say. "

winemd wrote on Dec 17, 2008 9:04 PM:

" Students do not have the same rights of expression that adults do, especially on schools grounds, unless they are wearing Tigger socks :-). "

a teacher wrote on Dec 18, 2008 9:25 AM:

" Angelina, there is an interesting Op-Ed piece in todays NY Times that might give you some solace and bolster your argument (although I doubt you'd agree with all of the arguments).

"It's a Narnia Christmas".

While I still think that the "War on Christmas" is a fatuous argument designed to make a lot of noise and draw attention to the likes of Savage and O'Rielly, I could see an argument that Christmas is a holiday that has morphed into something that transends religion.

Mele Kalikimaka! "

Sandra wrote on Dec 18, 2008 9:37 AM:

" winemd....lol tigger socks....exactly. Now that was a right worth fighting for, but a bible, or the right to paint a castle in the clouds....not so much.
Which illustrates even more what my point is, and which Raven will never understand. "

punkymane wrote on Dec 18, 2008 10:45 AM:

" Merry Christmas!!!! "

out in napa wrote on Dec 18, 2008 10:48 AM:

" I find it incredibly amusing that so many adults got themselves wound up by a 7th grader asking a question. Thanks for the laugh. "

WatchDoggie wrote on Dec 18, 2008 12:38 PM:

" I think that it should be Christmas Break, and it should only be for Christmas -- ONE DAY -- if it's really so important to you that it be named for the Christians. And that way you could spend more time in school and perhaps learn something about toleration of other religions and cultures. "

dianeljew wrote on Dec 18, 2008 9:36 PM:

" I agree, this world now gets affended when we call it Christmas, I get affended when others refuse to call it Christmas. If it wasn't for Christ we wouldn't have Christmas.
I wish people would start being thankful to Christ and stop trying to delete him. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:19 AM:

" out in napa ,
Really? And how do you think your comment makes that 7th grader feel? Nice of you....Merry Christmas "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:26 AM:

" Sandra-
The comment makes "that 7th grader" feel proud....that she can make big enough of a point to get people to even consider commenting on it! =D

BTW-
The tigger socks goes to show you what people’s priorities are.

out in napa-
What exactly made you laugh?

WatchDoggie-
I'm tolerant of other religions and cultures.... until they attempt to destroy traditions.
There was a Jewish family at my old school that and when their daughter entered kindergarten, they decided that the much anticipated school's Christmas play shouldn't be held at all. Sad indeed.
No, they didn't succeed, the Christmas play took place and so did some other traditions like some parents of kids in my class who came in and did a little something that represented their religion and/or culture. A family made latkes (potato pancakes) and brought a Menorah and talked about it, another family brought a Nativity scene and we did a "Posada" (songs, piñata and everything in between!)... We learned so much and had great fun.
You see, I'm not the intolerant one... and the intolerance of that Jewish family does not
represent all the Jewish families either.

Teacher-
I’m going to take a look in my wardrobe….see what I can find ;) "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:26 AM:

" Christmas was not recognized as a national holiday until 1870. Therefore, the Founders did not feel the need for the government to recognize or honor the holiday. There is much more mixing of religion and government today than there was during the first decades of the country's existence. "

leavintown wrote on Dec 19, 2008 12:33 PM:

" I think the reason why we don't call it Christmas vacation anymore is because Christmas itself is such a small part of the THREE WEEKS that the kids are out of school. We all know why there is a third week of vacation now. By the time they go back to school, Christmas is almost forgoten. I don't call it Christmas Vacation, or Winter Break. I have other names for the extra third week off, but I don't want to write it because the NVR moderator will delete this. "

bigholla77 wrote on Dec 19, 2008 1:26 PM:

" "2 weeks that I don't have to get up at 5:30 AM or grade papers."
All i have to say is amen ateacher. I am a teacher too , I don't care if you call it Kwanzaa break, winter break or whatever. My christian faith is strong, So calling something winter or Christmas break doesn't effect how I feel about this time of year. I usually tell my students happy holidays. I respect that this time of year has different meaning for different people. It is Christians that are pushing XMAS on people not Jews pushing Hanukkah on people. So if we call it "Winter Break" it give respect to all groups no matter what they celebrate. In America your voice matters no matter how small it is. "

glenroy wrote on Dec 19, 2008 5:25 PM:

" Ol’crow….getting pounded right and left…….

Santa Margarita is just another in many communities up and down this state that recently banned anything related to Christmas….including Christmas Trees on city streets and property and the very word ‘Christmas‘….pretty pathetic….OBL is loving it.

It’s sad deal here too…growing up in this Valley at a time when every body knew everybody Christmas Season was a wonderful time for community events one after another schools, Grange Halls, Fair Grounds, downtown events, Elks and Moose lodges held Christmas parties for children and it all started the day after Thanksgiving…The week prior to the Christmas break every public and private elementary, middle and high school held Christmas Plays and Caroling Nights for students and parents which were packed full, Christmas art work was plaster in every classroom, Salvation Army donations were taken and can drives collected tons of food…….now what? Just imagine the outrage if the school choir tried to sing ’Silent Night’…..it’s all pathetic but then so are those who hate Christmas.

Every fool has a price to pay because nobody gets out of this world alive. "

Raven wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:16 PM:

" don't worry glenroy, my feathers are intact...as are my convictions.....and the woe is me, the poor persecuted Christians doesn't play....and as bigholla said, it is the Christians that are pushing their 'truth' on the rest of us. Maybe the reason you don't have the plethora of Xmas events was people stopped coming to them, as more and more people found they couldn't afford to live here and moved elsewhere....

as for Santa margarita banning Christmas decorations and the word Christmas..here is a little thing I found on Craigslist today..

2nd Annual Santa Margarita Christmas Boutique.

Come join over 20 Vendors for the 2nd Annual Santa Margarita Christmas Boutique at the Community Hall on the corner of Murphy and I street. It's on Sunday Dec. 14, 2008 between 9am - 6pm for all your last minute gift buying.

that is some kind of heavy ban at work there glenroy... "

antipc wrote on Dec 19, 2008 8:25 PM:

" Merry Christmas all.

May God bless & keep our soldiers safe. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:29 AM:

" Geez Raven, had to dig a little deep to find that one....You do understand that a Christmas Bazaar with vendors is a commercial undertaking...so far greed is the one part of Christmas that has not gone out of style.
I am just so perplexed that this issue just sails above your head time and time again. Try looking up, maybe then you'll get the point.
Oh and this line, "and the woe is me, the poor persecuted Christians doesn't play..." , kind of showing your true colors there. I am beginning to understand why you are so entrenched in your convictions and so confused as to what others are trying to point out. "

Raven wrote on Dec 20, 2008 12:04 PM:

" Since it is held at the community hall....which is municipal property in Santa Margarita.....doesn't seem like the ban worked.

and Sandra, the least persecuted group in this nation is the Christian community...and no matter how many times you cry wolf, it doesn't change that fact. Enjoy Mithras Day on Thursday and have a great solstice. "

alucawanza wrote on Dec 20, 2008 4:28 PM:

" Anticommie said: Someone wrote that Christmas is a secular holiday, right? So if it is a secular holiday, why cant the government embrace it as Christmas?

Christmas means Christ's birth, that's why. There's nothing secular about that. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Dec 20, 2008 7:09 PM:

" Glenroy writes, "Just imagine the outrage if the school choir tried to sing ’Silent Night’…..it’s all pathetic but then so are those who hate Christmas."

Glenroy, when's the last time you attended a high school choir concert? I assure you, you'll hear plenty of religious-themed, religiously-inspired music at any of them.

Who hates Christmas? (Didn't the Pilgrims hate Christmas?) Fake outrage and attacks at strawmen are pathetic, as well. "

Is it 2012 yet? wrote on Dec 21, 2008 8:40 AM:

" Reading Raven and Madison Jay Hamilton comments here just made my suspicions valid..

The GRINCH is real and multiplying!

Now, how does that story end? "

out in napa wrote on Dec 21, 2008 9:43 AM:

" Angelina
I laugh when I read some of the posts and see how worked up people get over a simple question. Chrstmas Break or Winter Break? Who cares both are accurate. The only reason it has changed to Winter Break is in an effort to be "PC", & not offend non-Christians and avoid law suits. Just more proof of how the whole idea of being "PC" has been taken to the extreme. I see the "heated" posts as energy that could be better spent helping others and making a difference.
That being said, good for you for providing thought provoking questions and topics. Keep it up, I enjoy the entertainment. "

Raven wrote on Dec 21, 2008 10:00 AM:

" well, he is right here next to us helping people observe the winter holidays, all of them, anyway they see fit 2012....did you enjoy the solstice and are you ready for Mithras's day on Thursday? "

anticommie wrote on Dec 21, 2008 10:24 AM:

" alucawanza:

you obviously missed the point.

And another thing, seperation of church and state, not God and state "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Dec 21, 2008 10:56 AM:

" Raven-
For most of America, it was just another day in our Christmas Vacation. Since you seem to celebrate everything, I hope you enjoy celebrating all those holidays. "

Raven wrote on Dec 21, 2008 11:53 AM:

" you have any particular God in min anti...the muslim god...the jewish god...the pagan god?..

Angelina, if it was, that is fine, just as Xmas may be on Thursday....and I do enjoy them....and you could too if you wanted too, no one is stopping you from celebrating. "

Lee wrote on Dec 21, 2008 1:05 PM:

" Raven, I see you must watch the history channel sometimes too. I used to be a Methodist. I was very religious, going so far as to belong to the youth fellowship, teach sunday school, sing in the church choir, sing in the holiday Contartara all around the area. But now some over zellous Christian Religions have basically taken over Christianity so much that I don't wish to be called a Christian. I don't remember who wrote that the only reason there is a Christmas Holiday is because of Christians. No, It was originally a Pagan Holiday celebrating the rising of the sun among other things and feasting because of the need to slaughter many of the sheep and cows because with the cold you couldn't protect them through the winter. So they feasted because they didn't have a means to preserve the meat then or they didn't think they did. To bad people get so set in their ways that they can't look at the history of things and only they are right. It's sad. "

Raven wrote on Dec 21, 2008 3:16 PM:

" One of my favorite channels, Lee, but I was a history minor in college as well. "

Northside Resident wrote on Dec 21, 2008 4:59 PM:

" I've just read the original editorial by the teacher and my gut response is one of sorrow. What a nasty, sad opinion. Thinking of the feelings of others is the more Christ-like than shopping for presents and getting loaded on eggnog. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 22, 2008 9:22 AM:

" Raven,
Just wondering...You've said this and similar things quite a few times. " Enjoy Mithras Day on Thursday and have a great solstice. "
Why?
Is it to anger people? Are you a Wiccan? You just like solstice? You hate Christians so much you want to rub it in peoples faces? You think it will annoy me?
Whatever the reason, it again illustrates that you miss my point.
I am not a Christian, so if you are doing it to annoy me, it isn't. But if you are doing it to get to the Christain population in someway...and then claim Christians are not persecuted...well I have to ask, what is it exactly you think you are doing, if not engaging in persecution?
Now if you are Wiccan, and just want to share your greeting, then Happy Mithras to you to.
But if you are Wiccan, remember one of the main tenets is "Do no harm"..... "

Raven wrote on Dec 22, 2008 10:03 AM:

" Actually Sandra what I am is none of your business...and has no bearing at all on what I have posted....

As for the greetings, just reminders to people who may have forgotten, that there are other holidays' this time of year...and that our current ones haven't been as written in stone as they would like to believe.

and Mithras btw is not Wiccan....it is/was the soldier's god of the Romans, who was born in a cave on Sec. 25.

Explain to me what harm is done by standing up for everyone's right to celebrate all holidays as they wish and in making sure all clubs on schools are treated equally.

Glad it isn't annoying you. Happy Hannukah. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 22, 2008 10:09 AM:

" Northside; I didn't write the original editorial, that would be Ms. Gervasio, who is 12 and probably doesn't get loaded on eggnog (neither do I). "

Lee wrote on Dec 22, 2008 12:12 PM:

" I can't help it, I have to comment again. All this "fighting" reminds me of when my daughter was doing her Christmas shopping and was standing in the check-out line at Mervyn's. She told me that everyone was pushing and shoving and talking about mean things with other people and generally displaying hostility. She said I finally couldn't take it anymore, and I screamed at the top of my lungs, "Merry Christmas to All. HO HO HO". When she told me about it later she asked me, why are people so mean when we are celebrating the birth of "The Prince of peace"? All I could say was I don't know. People are just mean some times. She is no longer a christian. "

Northside Resident wrote on Dec 22, 2008 1:17 PM:

" Teacher- How great a learning experience this can be! Teaching about the tyranny of the majority, thinking of others first, and the separation of church and state!

If you are her teacher or parent, you are very lucky to have all these real world opportunities to teach a lesson to a 7th grader.

my lesson? To read more carefully! "

steph wrote on Dec 22, 2008 8:51 PM:

" Hey, Everbody!

Li'l Miss Angelina made the Redwood Honor Roll--4.0.

Surprise!

(Not surprised.)

Good job, Angelina! Way to celebrate Christmas break! "

Raven wrote on Dec 22, 2008 9:32 PM:

" good going angelina "

marikavl wrote on Dec 23, 2008 12:15 AM:

" I came from a communist country and there we had to celebrate " winter break" But in the FREE USA were we have religies freedom why we not calling it Christmas break is scarry!!! "

Raven wrote on Dec 23, 2008 4:16 AM:

" Call if Christmas break, no one is saying you can't, if you want but one of the freedoms here is not forcing anyone to observe a religious holiday if they do not want to. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 23, 2008 7:05 AM:

" Demanding it be called Christmas Break is the same as demanding it be called Winter Break, marikavl. The NVUSD CHOSE to call it Winter Break. That is freedom of speech and freedom of religion in action.

Congratulations Angelina, I admire smart people even when I don't agree with a word they say. "

anticommie wrote on Dec 23, 2008 7:11 AM:

" Raven,

The God of those religions are the same God actually. The difference? Jewish religion doesnt think Jesus was the son of God, and Muslims believe Mohammad was the last prophet of God, or Allah as they call it. But all have one thing in common, their God. As for paganism gods Raven what pagan group are you talking about? Celtic? Japenese? African? "

dellasumbrella wrote on Dec 23, 2008 7:40 AM:

" Raven, I just needed to commend you for your persistence. Wisdom flies, and you soar above with your clear perspective. I'm afraid some can't see any higher than the church steeple.

Unfortunately, you end up flying around in circles with many in this crowd. Happy Solstice (yes, the days are finally getting longer!). And Merry Christmas! Many troops are coming home for the Holidays! Rejoice! "

Sandra wrote on Dec 23, 2008 9:30 AM:

" I am struck by these excerpts. I am struck by the smallness of spirit that brings forth this type of thought. I am also struck by the self rightousness displayed by those making these statements. We live in the U.S. We have freedom of religion. Anyone can celebrate any way they wish. We all know this. Yet we are a predominately Christian country. I am not Christian. Yet, I can understand why in a predominately Christian country people are upset that "Christ" is systematically being removed from Christmas. "As for the greetings, just reminders to people who may have forgotten, that there are other holidays' this time of year.." The thing is, writer, NO ONE HAS FORGOTTEN. And to say these greetings in the spirit you say them, cheapens the greetings.
"All I could say was I don't know. People are just mean some times. She is no longer a christian. "
This statement connotes mean with Christian. Certainly a form of persecution to Christians.
"What a nasty, sad opinion."
This was in reference to an opinion of a teenager. I applaud the teenagers bravery, and see nothing mean or sad, except that someone would say this.
"Christian Religions have basically taken over Christianity so much that I don't wish to be called a Christian."
WE HAVE FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Your faith must not be very strong, if others can push you away from what you believe.
"The moral thing is to not show favoritism to any religious group"
We are, again, a predominately Christian country, acknowledging that is not favoritism. Other religions have the right to celebrate any way they wish.
So Merry Christmas to all you BAH HUMBUGS out there. Why can't you just live and let live? "

Raven wrote on Dec 23, 2008 10:03 AM:

" exactly anti....there are so many gods it it ridiculous...and the holiday in question was chosesn from the celebration of a Roman god. I would also wager that some of the Christians wouldn't be happy to share their god with the Jews or Muslims and wouldn't be so strident if it were complaints from them about not be able to celebrate as their religion dictates.

You make one great statement Sandra, the important thing is to not show favoritism to any one religion.

But in my opinion, you are not in the position to judge the strength of anyone's faith in their particular religious belief ... and I must disagree with one on another thing, we are not a predominately Christian country, we are a country that happens to Christians as the largest religious group. A semantic difference perhaps but a vital one I think - We are a secular country, that is one of our greatest strengths.

and della, flying in circles over the battle field is one of the things ravens do so well ... we have strong wings.

merry christmas, happy hannukah, enjoy the longer days now that solstice has come and gone. and celebrate the season in the way that makes you happy, not someone else. Peace. "

funnyme wrote on Dec 23, 2008 11:48 AM:

" Raven,
You keep letting a part of the equation out, that is actually the one that supports the entire argument: 96% of the people IN THE US, CELEBRATE (as in participating in the celebration...by choice) CHRISTMAS!

Northside Resident,
What do you mean with "tyranny of the majority"? "

Raven wrote on Dec 23, 2008 12:43 PM:

" and funnyme...you have that figure from where?

It is an assumption but the actual amount doesn't matter as many i would wager are celebrating the secular day off rather than the religious holiday behind it.
It is in my, and many others, wrong to assume that all must celebrate the winter holidays in the manner you may do.

The tyranny of the majority cannot impose any religious practice upon the minority. "

Lee wrote on Dec 23, 2008 1:29 PM:

" To the person who chose to make my statements even more important, thanks. I chose to not call myself a christian anymore is because my Methodist Religion never was required to try to shove my beliefs down everyone elses throat. Unlike the evangelicals today. My religion practiced the teachings of the "Prince of Peace". My children practice their religions now that do practice love, honor, charity, caring. If you really want to become a person who likes to tell anyone who doesn't believe exactly the way you do that they will go to h---, fine. I don't choose to. "

post-it wrote on Dec 23, 2008 11:18 PM:

" Regarding Separation of church and state:

Thomas Jefferson, as President of the United States went to Sunday services delivered at the US Capitol building by various ministers. To quote from the site:

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.

Sorry Links are not allowed in posts. You can read more at the Library of Congress web site. There is an extensive exhibit about religion and the founding of our country. Reading is highly recommended for all US citizens.

Regarding Religious Symbolism in school:
You will find teachers seem to be allowed to have posters of Buddha and Hindu Gods, but I suspect if someone had a Virgin Mary or a Crucifix on the wall it would not be allowed.

Spring break does not always come at Easter, so there is no reason to call it Easter Break. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 24, 2008 7:23 AM:

" Post it,
Exactly correct. But just wait and see...those in denial of the recent changes (last 25 years or so)regarding how the P.C. crowd view Christianity will come up with all kinds of reasons why you are just being intolerant. When in reality it is this P.C. attitude which is intolerant of Christianity.
I guess the best defense is a good offense. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 24, 2008 10:44 AM:

" Post it. In 25 years of working with schools, in 5 different states and two different countries I have yet to see Spring Break NOT fall on Easter. Likewise, I have yet to see a teacher who would allow religious symbols and exclude only Christian ones.

Everything you said about religion in the government is true. It is also irrelevant. It is beyond dispute that the founding fathers were religious men. Their moral view points were taken from their religious beliefs. Their view of diversity then wasn't whether you were a man or a christian, it was what denomination of Christianity and what part of the country you came from. Religion was a more significant part of the lives of the common American then.

Yet, when the founding fathers made our constitution, they made sure that the very first amendment separated religion from the government. They thought it was THAT important. Most Americans seem comfortable about that. The only Americans I hear complaining are on the ultra right, or people seeking attention (like Savage or Limbaugh).

Most people I meet don't care what you call it, they just enjoy the time off to celebrate the way they choose to. "

Fire Mike wrote on Dec 24, 2008 2:35 PM:

" Just to clarify a teacher's post: it is beyond dispute that SOME of the founding fathers were religious men. They ranged in belief from evangelical to "moderate" (Episcopal) Christians, to theists, deists, atheists and agnostics. While some like to claim that Jefferson was a religious person, a couple of quotes should give us pause before making a judgment on that:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."

Of course, Thomas Paine was invaluable in shaping the debate regarding the role of religion in our young nation, and his opinion of religion was even more antagonistic toward it than was Jefferson's:

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes."

And I have to agree (as usual) with a teacher - the only folks I hear complaining about "winter break" are either right-wing idealogs or attention seekers (and quite often, both).

Wishing you all a peaceful holiday and new year . . . "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Dec 24, 2008 4:01 PM:

" Wow, this thread is still going on? Angelina I think you hit a nerve.

I wish all of you a very Merry Christmas.

If you don't want to have a Merry Christmas, don't have one. I won't force you and I doubt that anyone else will. Have a Merry or Happy (insert your choice of holiday). If you believe in PC or don't have a favorite holiday, then you don't even have to have a holiday. Go back to work, or give your boss back the holiday pay since you can't celebrate anything.

There. I think that just about covers everybody. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Dec 24, 2008 6:38 PM:

" Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. Jefferson regarded Jesus as a human teacher only. As President, Jefferson refused to issue any days of prayer or religious celebration. As President, Jefferson regarded government officials as having civil powers only. James Madison argued against military chaplains. While President, Madison refused to issue religious proclamations, even for thanksgivings. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Dec 25, 2008 9:21 AM:

" Thought I was done, but had to share this. I'm at an Army post for the holidays. Yesterday, it being Christmas eve, I was thinking it was safe just to say "Merry Christmas". After greeting two soldiers, I heard one complaining, as they walked away, that my greeting wasn't for her, because she's Jewish, and doesn't celebrate Christmas.

She wasn't being PC. She was feeling excluded.

So Happy Holidays to all, and to all a good day! "

funnyme wrote on Dec 25, 2008 12:23 PM:

" dellas, are you sure you didn't copy and paste it or paraphrase it from a leftist PC website?

...and she didn't turn around and say "Happy Hanukkah to you, btw" or "Thanks but I actually celebrate Hanukkah since I am Jewish"?...

Now, go have a Merry Christmas (to 96% of the US people!)!!! "

post-it wrote on Dec 25, 2008 2:38 PM:

" A Teacher
Easter 2009 is April 12. NVUSD Spring Break is March 23-27, 2009. No reason to call it Easter Break. It was similar last year too.

I never said Jefferson had any type of religion, I just pointed out that according the Library of Congress, He regularly went to church in a government building. Take it for what ever precedent you choose. My take is that at the very least he was tolerant and respective of many different faiths. I can't speculate on how he would feel about naming the school break. The online religion in America exhibit is quite an interesting read that presented a lot of information I was not aware of until this year. Take a look and you can read many quotes in their original context. Be informed and make your own decision. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 25, 2008 4:19 PM:

" Well Post it, I stand corrected. In my defense, I don't work for NVUSD. School districts are scheduling around their tests, so NVUSD's spring break could reflect that. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Dec 25, 2008 5:51 PM:

" Oh, my, funnyme, it seems you're implying that anything coming out of a liberal's head is a cut & paste lie.

I guess that's the spirit of christmas you'd like to pass on...well, in the spirit of sarcasm, thank you for your kind, Christlike words.

Celebrate Christmas your own way; it doesn't seem to be about spreading joy or teaching tolerance, however.

In the meantime, I'll continue to wish the soldiers Merry Christmas, Happy Holiday and welcome home!

Hope you have an epiphany for the new year. You need it.

Amen. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 26, 2008 8:18 AM:

" I believe Post Its point is that Jefferson showed TOLERANCE towards religion. This is what is lacking from the P.C . crowd. The claim that a Christian majority country wanting to keep Christ in Christmas is intolerant. But it is really their intolerance that makes this an issue. Only in America.....

Teacher, just because you have never seen any teacher not allow one religious symbol in favor of another does not mean it hasn't happened. It happened every year at my kids elementary school when the Dredal song was sung every winter program, but no Christian songs were allowed. It happened right here in Napa, at Napa high. Two murals were painted. A hispanic artist painted the Madonna, considered to be a hispanic "Cultural" symbol, and a Christian artists was not allowed to paint a castle in the clouds because it was considered to be "Religious" symbology, and was only allowed to paint the castle on the ground.
Now examine the reasoning behind that. Think about it...Can you get any more P.C. than that?
Hispanic culture....allowed.
Christian culture...not allowed.
Hispanic...allowed religious expression
Christian male....not allowed religious expression.
I really see little tolerance displayed by this. Do you? "

Raven wrote on Dec 26, 2008 1:33 PM:

" Sandra, the artist changed the mural to meet the school's desires...and from what I have read, the board considered the school to have overstepped in that instance. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 26, 2008 5:16 PM:

" You know Sandra, I keep wanting to ignore this thread. It's becoming tiresome, but you keep on baiting, so here we go.

A dreidel is no more a religious symbol than a Christmas tree is. I did notice that the last time my daughter sang in a school choir that they sang "O Christmas Tree". You equate a children's toy with the Christian cross and they just ain't the same thing.

You take any change in a holiday tradition as an assault on religion by some nebulous PC conspiracy. How X-files of you. Like Santa and the Easter Bunny, there is no such thing. Calling it Winter Break as opposed to Christmas Break is actually more tolerant since it is inclusive rather than exclusive. I'm sure you'll beg to differ.

That someone censured a picture of a castle in the sky is asinine (will THAT get past the NVR censures?). What can I tell you, stupid people of all political stripes abound. You guys have Savage and O'Rielly, we have some people who think they have to protect us from religion. They are an embarrassment. But, if you ask me, insisting that we call it Christmas break is just as PC. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 27, 2008 8:59 AM:

" Teacher,
Angelina's point was about Christmas break, not mine. I said calling it winter break was fine. MY point was that Angelina's letter was addressing the wrong part of this issue. MY point was that from my observations, those who follow the Christian religion are becoming, marginalized by political correctness being allowed to run amouk. I am not Christian, but I do have fond memories of singing Christmas carols every winter in school. My children were not allowed by the school administration to learn a single one while attending elementary school. The student Raven refers to did not change his mural because he was happy to do so. He changed his mural because of harrassment from other students and the realization of what this issue was turning onto. No one should be harrassed in such a way, and the School administration should not have allowed it, let alone gone along with it.
Just the fact that it happened, just the fact that Raven makes allowances for it, as if it was not that big of a deal, just the fact that so many seem to be perfectly allright with the way the tide has turned, is all very interesting to me.
These same people were for the most part against Prop 8, because they believed, as I did, that it took away civil liberties. JUST THE FACT that because this is about the CHRISTIAN religion, and that somehow makes it not about civil liberties to them, is very interesting to me.
Again, could that attitude even happen if Christianity were not being marginalized?
There is a lack of consistancy in applying what they profess to believe.
And the lack of awareness of this, on their part, is what I find interesting "

Sandra wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:13 AM:

" Teacher,
I also wanted to point out that to imply things about me like " How X-files of you.", "nebulous PC conspiracy","You guys have Savage and O'Rielly", or " you keep on baiting", is an underhanded tactic used to make a person's opinion seem less legitimate.
I keep repeating in different ways because my point is not being understood.
I am just amazed by the lack of insight people display. I am amazed by those who use the tactics you have used, and wonder why the need was felt to engage in this behavior.
You may think my opinion is a bunch of baloney, and I certainly find some other opinions here to be full of baloney, also. But I would never address them as you have addressed me. It is very insulting.
I agree with one part of your last post..."What can I tell you, stupid people of all political stripes abound".
But I would never dismiss someone's opinion while I displayed such a lack of understanding as to what their opinion actually was. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 27, 2008 5:15 PM:

" Sandra, I understand your opinion. I don't agree with it. The vast majority in this country are Christians. How could they possibly be marginalized? It's an absurd position, thus the derision it deserves. "

winemd wrote on Dec 27, 2008 8:30 PM:

" Just because Christians are a majority is not a good reason to treat their views with scorn and prevent those views being expressed. You don't have to agree with Christianity, but you do have to allow them the right to freely express themselves. If a minority religion was treated the same way, it wouldn't be okay with me either. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:55 PM:

" winemd: As far as I know, no one here is treating Christians with scorn nor are they preventing them from expressing themselves. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:57 AM:

" Winemd,
Absolutely correct.....though Teacher is not treating Christians with scorn (it would be just me he is treating with scorn). But, as evidenced by my post of Dec 23, 2008 9:30 AM, there has been scorn shown to Christians.
This is exactly why I find this trend so interesting. So many are in denial of it happening, or at the least rationalize it away. Teacher presents a great example of rationalization with these words, "The vast majority in this country are Christians. How could they possibly be marginalized?"
Not allowing a student to paint a mural as he invisioned it is preventuing someone from expression.
As for marginalizing a group of people, well Teach, we are at the beginning stages of it. The politically correct crowd has banned Christmas Carols from many of Napa's elementary schools, while promoting other cultures and their practices. There is nothing wrong with promoting, but how can you close your eyes to the practice of BANNING?
The whole trend is a great example of those who hold the power using it against those they disagree with.
It is tyranny, plain and simple.
As wimemd says, "If a minority religion was treated the same way, it wouldn't be okay with me either. " "

winemd wrote on Dec 28, 2008 11:12 AM:

" What about the school mural example? What about all the talk about people believing in fairy tales on other threads (primarily prop 8)? Teachers teach about other religions' winter celebrations but not about the Christian winter celebration. Again if another religion was treated similarly there would be an uproar about it. Devout Muslims are allowed to break dress codes in some places but there have also been cases where Christians are not allowed to wear crosses because of dress codes. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 28, 2008 1:08 PM:

" According to several sources, the percentage of Christians in the USA is between 75% and 85%. It is apparently dropping a bit. How do you marginalize 75-85% of the population? I could see a movement to curtail overt expressions of faith in public. I sometimes find that annoying (mostly the fact that courtesy forces me to obligingly stop what I'm doing). However that is not the same thing as marginalizing.

"The politically correct crowd has banned Christmas Carols from many of Napa's elementary schools".

So I asked both my Middle School aged daughters what they sang in the winter performance of their school choir. They recited a list of Christmas Carols, some quite religious. My memory DID serve me correctly.

"Devout Muslims are allowed to break dress codes in some places but there have also been cases where Christians are not allowed to wear crosses because of dress codes. "

So are devout Christians who are able to fore go medical procedures such as vaccinations and wear head scarfs (it's not just a Muslim thing). The only school where Crosses might be a dress code issue is Redwood, which has an absurdly restrictive dress code. Call the ACLU, that's what they do (oh wait, someone already did and they won).

If 75-85% of the country is Christian, why would they have to learn about Christian Christmas traditions? Wouldn't it be more of a learning experience to find out about how other people in the world celebrate Christmas (or whatever)? Isn't that kind of the point of school, to learn new things? "

winemd wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:32 PM:

" I have no objection to learning about other religions traditions or their scripture (as a matter of fact I think it is a good thing). The problem I have is when one is specifically excluded out of fear of offending the other religions (this goes both ways), especially when other traditions are being taught. I find that learning about religion an interesting and complex subject and teaching about Christianity or any other religion is not the same as proselytizing. Learning about Christian traditions in an academic setting is different than learning by osmosis.
BTW, most of the people who take the vaccination exemption do not do so for religious reasons, and many of them are not Christian. And I have no problem with strict dress codes. But if is applied differently to different forms of religious expression, that is when I object. I was not referring to local cases with dress codes and many of these have to do with adults and their employers. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 28, 2008 11:16 PM:

" winemd: "The problem I have is when one is specifically excluded out of fear of offending the other religions"

What are you talking about? If you look at the curriculum guide for any grade in California schools you will find that religion is taught in the context of how it affected the development of culture and drove the major events of the eras studied in a particular grade. No religions are excluded because of political correctness.

For instance, in the 7th grade students will study the rise of Islam, the influence of the Catholic church in medieval times through the Renaissance and the Reformation. They will also study the religions of meso-american Indians, China and Japan. Who is being excluded?

I presume that you have dozens of examples of individuals being discriminated against by employers or other agencies. I'm sure you can find some, but by and large, employers are quite tolerant of non intrusive religious expression.

You are outraged over nothing. The "War on Christianity" is a fraud. "

Sandra wrote on Dec 29, 2008 10:10 AM:

" I AM SPEAKING OF "Napa's elementary schools"....not middle schools. The Christian religion has many different sects within it. Practices vary greatly between Catholics, Seven Day Adventists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Methodists, etc. It seems to me that there is a huge amount to learn about the different traditions just within the Christian religion, let alone other religions. It would be more of a learning experience to not ban learning about Christianity when learning about religion, or "winter traditions"
Have you ever taken a comparative religion course at our local college? Talk about Christians being scorned....that will really open your eyes. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 29, 2008 7:19 PM:

" Sandra, it was pretty much the same when they were in Elementary school, for all four of my children. For many years the Winter Concert (it has been called that for some years) was held in St. John's Church. So much for the war on Christmas.

Comparative religion is not really a topic for elementary or middle school. The topic of religion, as I said is more to inform about the history and culture of the era being studied. In college I took three courses along the lines of comparative religion, as it was an interest of mine. They were taught by fairly liberal people during fairly liberal times. I didn't notice Christianity being disparaged then.

This is a non issue. "

winemd wrote on Dec 29, 2008 7:49 PM:

" Then there should be no driedls, Menorahs, or Kwanzaa symbols in elementary schools, since Santa and Nativities are not allowed. Or all of them should be allowed, either way is fine. "

Raven wrote on Dec 29, 2008 10:08 PM:

" and they are allowed if used as educational materials.....and I do not recall Kwanzaa being a religious faith, just a celebration of the family. "

a teacher wrote on Dec 29, 2008 11:12 PM:

" Winemd, What schools have banned Santas or Christmas trees? I haven't heard of any.

You're making stuff up now. "

108923 wrote on Dec 30, 2008 11:00 AM:

" Feliz Navidad y Prospero Año Nuevo. "

winemd wrote on Dec 30, 2008 1:51 PM:

" My children have never had a Christmas tree or Santa in their school since my oldest started and she is in sixth grade, but they have had Hannukah and Kwanzaa materials (I have no problem with them learning about these also). They haven't even been taught about how different cultures celebrate Christmas and I think that there are some fascinating ways that South American cultures celebrate, as well as Scandinavian and other European traditions that are not done in the U.S. It could be a fascinating lesson, could it not? "

a teacher wrote on Dec 30, 2008 2:10 PM:

" "South American cultures celebrate, as well as Scandinavian and other European traditions that are not done in the U.S. It could be a fascinating lesson, could it not? "

Which is exactly what our Spanish teacher does to no complaints.

We have an extremely diverse population at my school. We had Christmas trees, Menorahs, Driedls, Santas, you name it. We still call it Winter Break. There is ZERO controversy about it.

Maybe your child has had a series of teachers who feel their job is to educate not entertain. Maybe they feel Christmas is something they should celebrate at home. I know that's how I feel about it. December is the month where I teach my students how to solve linear equations, an essential skill if you intend to succeed in Algebra. I haven't got time for Christmas. We did take the last day of school to watch "Shrek the Halls". After the test, that is.

I've worked in a dozen schools, in four different States and two different countries. This has never been an issue anywhere else. "

Raven wrote on Dec 30, 2008 2:28 PM:

" did you complain the schools winemd? Many schools do exactly what you are describing.

I was an air force brat and had almost 20 schools by the time i was out of HS, my kids were AF brats as well, seeing many schools as they grew up...never had any of the experiences you and sandra complain about... "

winemd wrote on Dec 30, 2008 8:31 PM:

" Again, I don't really complain about winter, summer, and spring break. That makes reasonable sense to me. What I find objectionable is when any religion is excluded when others are not. It does not matter whether that religion happens to be the majority. Either teach them all or none of them. That is not entertainment, IMHO. The classes all have parties the last day before break; that IS entertainment. You don't have to believe me, but I am relating my experience in elementary schools to date as regards the celebrations that occur during this time of year. "

Raven wrote on Dec 30, 2008 9:42 PM:

" winemed...there are many part of religions, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian and Muslim, that have made a significant impacts upon western civilization and world history and that should be studied and are in many schools but in their historical and sociological context. But none of them should be taught as religious instruction in any public school because, no matter how fair you try to be, someone is going to feel their religious beliefs is not getting the attention they feel it deserves or that someone else's shouldn't be taught at all?

With the euro-centric focus of most k-12 education in this country, Christianity gets the lion's share of the attention, probably to the detriment of our children not being exposed to our major religions and their impact on the world. "

winemd wrote on Dec 31, 2008 11:08 AM:

" So you advocate for teaching about none of them, except in historical/sociological context. That is fine with me. And I will agreee that elementary school is not the place for it anyway. High school is a start really. I took a course on the Bible as literature in high school (I think they later dropped it because of complaints, though - and I think that was a mistake, since it is a highly referenced book in literature). So there should not be teaching about Hannukah and Kwanzaa either in elementary school. Just my opinion, of course.
Raven I really agree that various religions have impacted and are impacting western civilization and that these things should be taught. I also think that for those who are interested, teaching about the religion is fascinating and I would have no problem with a course being offered as an option. "

Raven wrote on Dec 31, 2008 3:25 PM:

" and again, kwanzaa is not a religion, it is merely culture festival. "

winemd wrote on Dec 31, 2008 5:34 PM:

" Okay so you believe that it's okay to teach Kwanzaa but not Hannukah or Christmas cultural traditions. I believe that's nitpicking, but that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I have my opinion as stated. "

Raven wrote on Dec 31, 2008 8:40 PM:

" that is not what I said, winemd,I am saying don't lump Kwanzaa in with Hannukah and Xmas because the latter two are religious and Kwanzaa is not, a mistake all too many people make, assuming Kwanzaa has a religious base....teach them all but in the context I mentioned before. "

Sandra wrote on Jan 1, 2009 9:46 AM:

" "This has never been an issue anywhere else. "
I am not surprised. I do not think it is much of an issue yet, except here in California. But it will be more and more prevelant as we move forward without noticing what is happening. And not just about Christmas. Have you noticed the news and the attempt to limit Obama's innaguration to what a few would like to see? Last time I looked Obama was a Christian. This country was founded on the principal of FREEDOM of religi0on. This gives you the freedom to believe as you wish, not to subject your beliefs onto others. This does not give you the freedom to remove all mention of God, just because you do not believe in a GOD. It is tyranny of thought, and this tyranny is being expressed from a minority view. It may not have happened in your kids school, but I expect it has happened in the majority of elementary schools in Napa. "

Raven wrote on Jan 1, 2009 12:15 PM:

" well, I think attending or having my kids attend more than 20 schools in 12 states, including other districts in California, I might have expected to see it somewhere else, but haven't experienced it elsewhere....so you may be right, maybe Napa is this hot bed of anti-Christianity.....but I kind of doubt it. "

enlightened1 wrote on Jan 1, 2009 5:51 PM:

" Wow- so much stir from a letter written by a child who sites sources such as Fox News. Ask an Aussie who Rupert Murdoch is and they will tell you he single-handedly lowered the intelligence of the American population. Somebody broaden this girl's horizons! Please! It's a break and it's in winter. I think it's wonderful the wording has been changed since I was a kid; when I was Angelina's age and younger, I had always thought it a bit strange we would assume everyone celebrates Christmas. So what if it's a smaller count of the population- this is a shared nation. "

a teacher wrote on Jan 1, 2009 6:21 PM:

" Sandra, I DO have friends in Napa whose kids attend other schools. Not one has ever mentioned this as an issue.

Probably because it's not an issue.

"Have you noticed the news and the attempt to limit Obama's innaguration to what a few would like to see?"

If you are talking about Obama picking Rick Warren to do the invocation, yes, that's a controversy for some (not me, I could care less). However, the Obama people have ultimate say in how the inauguration runs, no one else.

Honestly, for someone who claims not to be a Christian, you seem also concerned. "

Raven wrote on Jan 1, 2009 8:01 PM:

" Sandra, if you are talking about the so help me god lawsuits, that is filed with every recent inauguration and just as routinely dismissed. It is a non-issue. "

Sandra wrote on Jan 2, 2009 8:51 AM:

" LOL Now it is being inferred I am a closet Christian because I see this as a civil liberties issue...hmmmm... I wonder why it was not inferred I was gay when I was against prop. 8. Even that you felt comfortable making that statement illustrates my point.
My brother is very Christian, and sends me info. quite often. (He is worried for my soul, and part of his faith is to spread the word, being Christian Missionary). Most of it I read quickly and delete, but one time he sent something I thought was very interesting, so I forwarded it to a friend I knew had been raised catholic.
The reaction was "Well, when did you become such a big Christian?" Not what I expected...what I expected was a reaction to the content of the message, not the source of the message, and certainly not a snide remark about what I believe, or am assumed to believe.
Like my friend, you focus in on the Christianity part, and not what the issue really is, one of civil liberties. That in itself is very interesting to me. It is what most people who claim this is a non-issue do. It is exactly why it continues as it does. People have a negative reaction to Christians, and really do not care, as long as it does not affect them. Christians are not part of the politically correct agenda. Gay rights, you betcha, but Christian rights...not so much.
My point about the inaguration is the attempt to remove all mention of god from it. And yes Raven, "every recent inauguration"...That is another sign of how this attempt to silence Christianity is in its beginning stages. "

Raven wrote on Jan 2, 2009 10:09 AM:

" you didn't read my entire post Sandra...this has happened at almost every recent inauguration and each time it does, the lawsuits are thrown out....there is an issue of perspective here Sandra, and not losing it.

The person with the biggest issue about Christianity here appears to be you, looking of discrimination when there is none. Taking opposition to your position as a campaign against the Christianity you profess not to practice. There has been no negative reaction to Christians here, just to those who want to impose Christianity upon those who do not want it. "

RobH wrote on Jan 2, 2009 8:41 PM:

" According to Wikipedia............

Christmas, also referred to as Christmas Day, is an annual holiday celebrated on December 25 that commemorates the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.[2][3] The day marks the beginning of the larger season of Christmastide, which lasts twelve days.[4] The nativity of Jesus, which is the basis for the anno Domini system of dating, is thought to have occurred between 7 and 2 BC.[5] December 25 is not thought to be Jesus' actual date of birth, and the date may have been chosen to correspond with either a Roman festival,[6] or with the winter solstice.[7]

Christmas is celebrated throughout the Christian population, but is also celebrated by many non-Christians as a secular, cultural festival.

You go Angelina!!! Many of us are sick and tired of having to cater to those who 'may be offended' There are so many that say they don't care or that they don't want to have to call it Christmas because they don't believe in Christ etc that they totally miss the point. We are told that we now should accept Kwanza and this is OK, Kwanza is a totally made up 'holiday' for those of African decent. We have to put up with being told we cannot pray in public, Call Christmas, Christmas! The calling of Christmas break...Winter Break is exactly the point you made in your article...'We don't want to offend anyone' Well , get over it if you are offended!!!! Those of us who believe are to accept your ludicris and moronic wining and have empathy for you. NO, Sorry, my give a d*** is busted! IT IS OK TO SAY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND CHRISTMAS BREAK... Christmas is the original reason for the break to begin with! "

Sandra wrote on Jan 3, 2009 8:51 AM:

" "There has been no negative reaction to Christians here, ...". That statement is just about as false as they come.
You also ignore the fact that when something is recently challenged year after year, when it was not challenged in the past, that it is signs of a societal change. You are correct, it has not been sucessful....YET. Will it be sucessful one day? The possibility is there, especiially when people such as yourself deny it is even a problem. Some societal changes are good and just, as I believe the gay rights issue is. Some are just plainn tyranny, as I beleive the antichristian movement is.
We cannot have it both ways. If we are to stand for civil rights, it is EVERYBODIES rights we stand for, not just the ones that are politically correct. "

St.Hell.comNative wrote on Jan 3, 2009 11:04 AM:

" It's not about religion, get over it. The reason it was changed from Christmas Break to Winter Break is because the Hispanic families go to Mexico for 3 weeks and it used to disrupt the class for teachers and students. These students would get behind and then have to be brought up to speed. It was an experiment to change the break to 3 weeks to see how it went. It stuck because it was easier to deal with the students being gone for 3 weeks. Totally unfair to those of us who had to figure out what to do with our kids for 3 weeks since we weren't on vacation in some warm place. When I wanted my son to go on his vacation to Tahoe in Feb. one year, I had to fight tooth and nail to get his teachers to give him homework to do when he was gone. Hey, it was MY vacation time, not Winter Break!!!!!! "

SSgt ITSN wrote on Jan 3, 2009 5:27 PM:

" Man, am I glad that I no longer live in liberal Napa! It seems that people are missing the point of Angelina's post and berating the young girl because she has views that are different from their own.

I work for the government and was appalled when we had to call our Christmas Party a "Non-Demoninational Winter Celebration," because we would upset the less than 5% of people that were not Christians or celebrated Christmas.

I am tired to catering to the few rather than the masses and this issue is just one example of how the political correctness band wagon has gone so far left that I gag everytime I have curtail my beliefs to make someone else happy.

From what I can gather, Angelina is recognizing that our society is changing to cater to a few rather than the many. I appauled her for recognizing that there has been a shift in our society's view point; that is something that should be commended at such a young age rather than badgering her on it.

Good for you Angelina and don't let people over the internet upset or sway your true beliefs. I am not a Savage Nation listener or any of those right winged programs, but I am proud to be an American and everything she stands for. Remember what had to happen to allow this people to belittle you and be proud that your nation is still standing. "

Raven wrote on Jan 3, 2009 6:22 PM:

" Sandra, the possibility is there that the sun may rise in the west but highly unlikely and not much to worry about, Part of the reason the suits fail is there is no 'so help me god' in the presidential oath. It was spoken spontaneously by Washington at the first inauguration, so it then becomes something each president decides to add when he takes the oath, so there is no government involvement in the first place, just personal freedom of speech.

And again, the negative reaction has been towards the idea that all, whether they are Christian or not, must bow to Christian beliefs. How can you expect tolerance if you do not give tolerance?

Again, this world has so many more important issues to deal with, we have another 12 months before we have to deal with this again. (And I am sure we will hear the refrain again as the winter solstice approaches once again.) "

Angelina Gervasio wrote on Jan 3, 2009 7:12 PM:

" RobH,
Thank You! You got my point exactly. We are forced to "accept" everything people shove in our faces, or to be rejected and labeled by our society as "mean".

I read a book called "The Shack" by William P. Young, and there's a great quote I found in the Foreword....

"The thing is, he usually makes uncomfortable sense in a world where most folks would rather just hear what they are used to hearing, which is often not much of anything. Those who know him generally like him well enough, providing he keeps his thoughts mostly to himself. And when he does talk, it isn't that they stop liking him-- rather, they are not quite so satisfied with themselves"

Sandra-
Right again! Even though I believe GW is a scam, Gore has a point when he says that people don't do anything until it's far too late...

St.Hell.comNative-
You're right about that we get 3 weeks because of the people going to Mexico... Our friends that live in the Santa Cruz County get two weeks, and they call it Winter Break too... but that's Santa Cruz for ya.

SSgt ITSN-
The name for the Christmas Party is pathetic, but also scary, that someone lacked the guts to stand up for the majority and what this Country was founded on.

You gathered correctly, and I'm sure people are badgering me because they can't accept that what's happening is true, or can, but think they are being more "inclusive", but are really giving a handful of people a whole lot of power (Communism), which will drag this country down, unless YOU and I do something!

enlightened1,
"The soul is headed by being with children...Fyodor Dostoevsky". "

Sandra wrote on Jan 3, 2009 9:27 PM:

" "Christian Religions have basically taken over Christianity so much that I don't wish to be called a Christian."

How would you feel about the statement, "Gays have taken over marriage so much, I no longer wish to say I am married?"

Raven, I don't know about you, but it certainly seems to me that the above statements are BOTH put downs. The first was right here on this blog....How about this one? ""All I could say was I don't know. People are just mean some times. She is no longer a christian. " She is no longer christian because christians are mean....Again right here on this blog. Both pretty solid in the catagory of a put down, if you ask me.
Nothing in there about being forced to bow to christian beliefs. And Raven FYI no Christian I know has ever forced me bow to their beliefs.
As I said earlier, this could only happen in America. Can you imagine a christian in Iran demanding they call Ramadan, winter celebration so they don't feel left out? It is a good thing that people are free to celebrate their holidays as they wish. Calling Christmas, Christmas does not change that. As SSgt ITSN states, political correctness has gone off the deep end. And Denial is not just a river in Egypt. "

XMAN wrote on Jan 4, 2009 2:45 AM:

" Methinks we should all get together and have one big party. You seem to like one another a lot. Christmas would not be a good time - too much going on. How about next summer? We can all bring a picnic and and a six-pack. See you there. "

enlightened1 wrote on Jan 4, 2009 5:37 AM:

" Wait a minute! I've got the solution! It's much too obvious...we could call it as they do Down Under: School Holidays. Call it as it is. No school, spend the time as you will. And thank any higher power you wish that children, especially, still have time and Hope to change. A- please, please, please broaden your horizons! Good on you for writing, but please be open-minded. And what's this scary nonsense?! GW is NOT a scam. sheesh. OK. Enough Napa talk. I've got to get back to my life as an American Exile living in Australia. It was a good visit home during School Holidays, your winter break, my summer. And while I'm at it, thank you to those who did voted NO on 8, the majority in Napa- we'll get there and one day I can come home for good...G'day! "

dellasumbrella wrote on Jan 4, 2009 12:01 PM:

" So, let me get this straight. A student wrote a piece objecting to the use of the term “winter break” used by schools to designate the winter break that occurs around the time of many holidays. She found it ridiculous that the name should be changed because it might “offend” people or “hurt their feelings.” A discussion ensued on the issue of whether changing the name to winter break was actually depriving Christians of their right to celebrate Christmas, or merely including others in the vacation deal.

Arguments in favor of calling the break “Christmas Break” are that 96% of people celebrate Christmas, and that some of the 4 % remaining are conspiring to eliminate Christianity (and apparently threatening the right of the 96% to practice their religion). It’s also been implied that anyone who sees it differently is berating the writer, who is merely practicing her right to not care if people are offended or their feelings are hurt. The un-American, PC tendency toward inclusion has been contrasted with the Iranians, who would never allow Ramadan to be called Winter Break. Only in America are we subjected to such brash displays of equality. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Jan 4, 2009 12:03 PM:

" Another argument against calling it Winter Break is that Christmas was established to celebrate the birth of Christ, but that since Christ probably wasn’t born in December, pre-existing celebrations, like Solstice and the Roman winter celebration were used. How that’s an argument against calling it Winter Break I can’t figure out.

Arguments in favor of calling the break “Winter Break” are deemed, well, liberal at best. Most likely, they are part of that 4% conspiracy mentioned earlier.

Now, ignoring the fact that the whole idea of this conspiracy to eliminate Christmas was cooked up by the right wing because they’ve run out of real issues that sell, and ignoring the fact that whatever a school calls a break has no effect whatsoever on peoples’ right to observe their religious holidays, we now hear that the whole thing was cooked up to accommodate the Hispanic population’s need for a 3-week break.

I get it now. The Hispanic population is for the most part Catholic (right?). Catholics are Christian, and they’ve led the world in celebrating the birth of Christ.

So I guess that means, in Napa anyway, the Christians themselves are making the schools call it Winter Break. That still begs the question: Why does it matter? "

Sandra wrote on Jan 4, 2009 7:58 PM:

" Gee, Della...that's what you got from this? Well, it explains a whole lot then.
My comments were not about calling it winter break or not. I have stated that a few times. I have said that "winter" break WAS NOT the issue as I saw it. But never mind that, let us continue to misconstrue peoples words and continue to misunderstand, because gosh darn it, that is just so much more fun to argue for the sake of arguing, and spew forth sarcasm, than it is to try and understand what people mean.
My point is that as a non-christian, I find the trend from a faction of our society to remove any mention of christianity from our schools, government, etc., a very interesting one that could only happen in this country. We are very lucky to live in a country that allows this. That is part of my point for comparing us to Iran. I have also said I believe the trend has stemmed from an over enthusiasm for being politically correct. I do not think it is a non issue as many do, because in my mind it is about so much more than just religion. It is about the trend of political correctness to run to tyranny against others. I find this facinating because the political correct wrap themselves in the idea that they are being more open minded, when my experience is that it is the opposite that is true. It is a very rigid viewpoint, just as rigid as the view point that gay marriage should not be allowed.
I think the sarcastic reactions could possibly stem from what Angelina pointed out in her Jan 3, 2009 7:12 PM comment 3rd paragraph. "

Raven wrote on Jan 4, 2009 8:39 PM:

" Sandra, you have a fixation upon this...as for the bowing, what do you think you are asking non-christians and those who don't believe to do by insisting there is only one way to celebrate the holidays at this time of year...and what do you think you're are doing each time you try and insist that christian clubs be allowed to do anything they want to in the name of their religion?

as for no longer being a christian because she feels christians are mean, that is a statement of the facts as she sees them thru her own experiences. If you take it as a put down, such is life but you cannot invalidate her experiences by calling them a put down.

and as far as what would happen in other countries....do I really need to point out that the US is a secular nation, and Iran, for example is not, so of course the reactions will be different. Apples and oranges, Sandra, or should I say crosses and crescents.

You don't want equality with other religions, you want superiority over the rest and over those who believe in none. No one has been saying you have to change your religious beliefs, whatever they may be, but we have been saying just because your are christian, that gives you no extra rights. "

dellasumbrella wrote on Jan 5, 2009 7:04 AM:

" Sandra,
Are you referring to this quote:
"The thing is, he usually makes uncomfortable sense in a world where most folks would rather just hear what they are used to hearing, which is often not much of anything. Those who know him generally like him well enough, providing he keeps his thoughts mostly to himself. And when he does talk, it isn't that they stop liking him-- rather, they are not quite so satisfied with themselves"

I found that interesting. Although I didn't know who she was referring to, it seemed to me to reflect the reaction of those who find it hard to hear/tolerate references to any religious celebration other than their own, or to accept that there may be a more equitable way to construct our reality and to use our language.

And I think it's those people who are realizing they are not as accepting of "the other" as they could be, and realize it is a little hard place in themselves, and they make up all sorts of silly stories to protect that hard little place.

This quick little response may not make any sense to you, but I'm perfectly satisfied with my position on this whole matter. I've been in a place of thinking Christianity should by rights prevail, because it was the "best" religion, and that Christmas rules, and believe me, I felt much smaller and meaner at that point in my life. But I've never believed there was some sleazy left-wing movement to destroy Christmas. That's just plain wacko. "

Sandra wrote on Jan 5, 2009 10:29 AM:

" Raven,
Where do you get the idea that in a country where we have religious freedom that anyone is telling anyone else how to celebrate the holidays, or how to worship for that matter? It seems to me the only ones who are doing that are those who attempt to LIMIT religious expression. Raven, our country is PREDOMINATELY Christian. So why in any way should Christianity, being the predominate religion be LIMITED by those who think the smaller religions are not being expressed as much. It is just weird, in my view. They can worship, express, etc., any way they wish, as long as violence and law breaking is not involved. That is a right in this country, unlike Iran. Your thesis is flawed as there is no law granting Christianity rights other religions do not have.
There is no law banning any religious expression at holiday time, whatever the religion is. So why do we have the P.C. crowd trying to impose LIMITS on religious expression from just ONE type of religion? Who made their views any more valid than anyone elses? What right do they have to impose this RIGID narrow view on others?
We are a free society granted freedom of religion. It is a very dangerous road these self rightious few are heading down.
And do not presume to tell me what I want when you have the inabilty to understand what I am saying.
I would say that in your attempt to take away religious expression that you are the one guilty of what you accuse me of. What I want is for everyone to quit being so rigid and self rightious and to just allow any one the religious expression they wish. "

sandra wrote on Jan 5, 2009 10:57 AM:

" Della,
I understand that you do not know who Angelina was reffering to. From my perspective,that is the problem.
I personally do not think that Christianity is the "Best" religion. It is certainly the best for those who choose to follow it, but certainly not for me. That is not where my view comes from at all.
My personal views on Christianity would probably surprise you, but are irrelevant to the point I am attemptiung to make.
I have no "hard little place" wanting to limit anyones choice of worship, or lack there of.
I would argue that those wishing to impose limits on religious expression wrap thier views around that hard little place.
You automatically think that because people wish for the right to express their religion at a time of year where most in this country celebrate that they are not allowing others their expression. That is a flawed premise.
So from this flawed premise comes a movement to limit expression, not a movement to express more.
That is a small hard reaction, if you ask me.
You assume people are trying to not allow others their religious expression. I think you are wrong. You are assuming Christians are trying to lord their religion over others because they are a majority. I think you are wrong, again. We hear more from Christians, because there are more of them. Why does this bother a portion of our society so darn much?
It does not bother me. I say God bless us all, and there are many paths to God. Take your path, or not. It's about freedom of choice. "

Raven wrote on Jan 5, 2009 11:53 AM:

" sandra, you complain because you cannot call it Christmas break and demand that you be allowed to, that all Christian symbols be allowed to be displayed in any manner you see fit...isn't that trying to tell others how to celebrate the holiday? And no one here has said you can't call it Christmas break, just that you cannot compel the schools or government to do so.

No one is limiting what you do with your christianity in the confines of your life or your church or your home, but you do not have the right to use public institutions to celebrate your religious beliefs. You can sacrifice a chicken to the great goddess hoodoo for all I care, but again, when you demand that the schools give special treatment to your religion, I object.

What you seem to be missing in all this, is Christianity is bound by the same restrictions as all other religions in this country, no special persecution is taking place despite what you desperately want to to believe.

As for the flawed premise, might I point out you used the example of Iran,as a non-secular country vs the US as a secular country, and do you really expect a country with a state religion to allow freedom of religion? "

dellasumbrella wrote on Jan 5, 2009 1:23 PM:

" Sandra -- I was not referring to you personally as harboring this hard little place of exclusion. I am not disagreeing with you points, although I think your premise and examples are flimsy, and I cringe at your implication, presented repeatedly, that somehow Christians are being given a raw deal by the PC crowd (can you identify them?).

I am reacting to that non-issue, discussed ad nauseum here -- the concern that a more inclusive use of language deprives someone of their joy. I think the attitudes expressed by many of those expressing that concern ring of joylessness, and not because someone wants to call Christmas break winter break.

I have been told my way of thinking is tantamount to a mental disorder, and when I shared an experience illustrating the benefit of a more inclusive greeting than "Merry Christmas", was accused of a cut & paste job.

If that reflects the Christmas uber alles attitude, how on earth can I take it seriously?

What's interesting to me is I had no idea, until I had already participated in this discussion, that there was this huge "anti-Christmas" conspiracy theory. Since most of the people I know well are liberal, and no one I know has ever indicated any desire to abolish Christmas or derive Christians their right to free expression, I can't for the life of me figure out who does have that desire. "

Sandra wrote on Jan 5, 2009 5:33 PM:

" Raven,
Wrong again when you say, " sandra, you complain because you cannot call it Christmas break and demand that you be allowed to, that all Christian symbols be allowed to be displayed in any manner you see fit." ALSO, I AM NOT CHRISTIAN RAVEN!
I really am beginning to wonder about your reading comprehension.
I have not said that at all. I have said this is NOT ABOUT CHRISTMAS BREAK repeatedly. In fact I have said pretty much just the opposite. YOU are the one that wishes to dictate what symbols are allowed or NOT allowed.
I have said that no one has the right to dictate to anyone else how they celebrate their religion. No one should take offense at the word Christmas, or the word Hanukkah, etc. That we live in a predominately Christian country and it follows that we hear and see more Christian symbology. I do not have a problem with that, while you seem to. You are the one advocating the removal of people's religious symbols.
You have demonstrated every time you post that you haven't a clue as to what I am speaking about. It is not about the word Christmas. It is not even about just Christianity. It is about trying to regulate other people's beliefs in some misguided sense of political correctness. Removing all christian symbology acheives nothing positive. It is a horrible precedent to set. If we allow that, then we are on the road to taking away other people's religious symbology. It is a form of control over others that goes against everything this country stands for, all because of a politiclly corect reaction to Christianity. You cannot choose whose rights you take away because you happen to disagree with them. "

sandra wrote on Jan 5, 2009 6:05 PM:

" Della,
I am not talking about an anti christmas conspiracy theory. Angelina's letter is HER opinion. I have no problem with the words winter break, and have stated such. I chose to elaborate on Angelinas point by making MY CASE for what I thought was REALLY going on here.
My point from the beginning (and illustrated by the use of examples of what has happened to Christians as this is what the original letter was about), has been that we have a growing segment in our society that wishes to control how other people choose to celebrate their religion, or live their lives for that matter.
I have seen it exemplified at my kids elementary school by banning any mention of Christianity at winter program for the whole 9 years they both attended. I have seen it by the banning of halloween celebration at the same school so as not to offend a certain segment of christians. It is not about just christianity, but about the need to control how others think. This trend, which I have blamed on those who are Politically Correct, wishes to dictate exaclty what should be allowed, and what should be silenced. It could just as easily be the Jewish religion, or the Islamic religion. It just happens to be the Christian religion getting picked on at the moment.
My point is that it is DANGEROUS to our freedoms to let this go on unoticed.
If we want a diverse society we cannot shut down certain aspects of it because a few idiots are offended.
To me it is exactly the same issue as gay marraige. It is not a non-issue, it is a civil rights issue. "

Raven wrote on Jan 5, 2009 7:34 PM:

" My reading comprehension is fine, thanks for being concerned, Sandra. I don't believe I have ever said you were a Christian, Sandra, frankly it doesn't matter, and again, the only one wishing to regulate anything appears to be you with your 'crusade' to correct a problem that isn't there. You also seem to assume that all who oppose your position want to remove all religion from public discourse.

"Removing all christian symbology achieves nothing positive. It is a horrible precedent to set. " As long as the policies are presented equally to all religious symbols, it is a positive polices that treats all religions equally. Giving special consideration to Christian symbols is not giving equal treatment.

No one has said anything about how people should privately celebrate whatever religion, the issue is over how, if at all, the schools and public entities like the government, are used to favor any one specific religion, and our founding fathers wanted no special treatment accorded any one religious group or church.

One more point, I don't believe I have never advocated the removal of anyone's religious symbols, just that policies regarding them be applied to all of them equally - the problem with that is what? "

Sandra wrote on Jan 5, 2009 10:08 PM:

" Raven,
This conversation is pointless....your words, "No one is limiting what you do with your christianity in the confines of your life or your church or your home,...." My christianity? What else does that mean except that I am christian?
And Raven, my point is that policy regarding religion is not equally applied. Other religious symbols are allowed, for now...until they become unpopular, and they will be singled out also, because it is the precedent that has been set by those who wish to control others. But again, in my opinion, you are a hopeless case , as you truly have not comprehended anything I have said regarding the trends I see happening in our society, or you would not be repeating your same arguments over and over, which address none of the points I am making.....As I have said to Della, it is not about Christianity, except that Christianity was the vehicle I used as an example of the way I see our society going. It is about how politically correct our world has become, and how in the guise of tolerance, it is anything but tolerant.
Maybe too many have become dumbed down and can no longer grasp anything but the most simplistic of concepts......
Regardless , I am done with this conversation with you. "

keepinitreal wrote on Jan 6, 2009 12:04 AM:

" Angelina, calling people communists because they name a vacation something that you don't like isn't productive. At all.

I celebrate Christmas, and recognize that not everyone does. I am fine with it being called winter break - it is winter after all! But calling people names because they disagree with your opinion...I don't think that attitude will serve you well in life. "

rage against wrote on Jan 6, 2009 7:49 AM:

" To the author of this article,

In response to your question, you can call it Christmas break. That is the beauty of this country, you can say whatever it is you feel like saying at anytime you feel like saying it, apart from yelling fire in a crowded theater, or something equally as destructive and/or puposeful.

You state that you are tired of giving up things that you believe in. As a seventh grade student, you might not be old enough yet to understand that words have no meaning, and belief in a word or phrase will always lead to disappointment.

For example, Christians call December 25th Christmas and say that is the date when Christ was born, but this is far from the truth. December 25th was the day the Roman Empire celebrated the winter solstice. Christians chose that day to celebrate the birth of Christ as not to be persecuted by the Romans for being Christian. So, Christmas day, in fact, is not what it claims to be. Any true belief in that claim is false and illogical.

Faith on the other hand is the cornerstone of the Christian religion, not belief. I don't feel that anyone should truly believe that Jesus could walk on water, but having faith in the infalibility of God can be a great force for good in this world (the opposite is also true).

To rap up, call it Christmas, call it the boogey man, it is all up to you. Maintain your faith, allow your beliefs to change with the wind. Who cares if your teachers want to call it winter break, I doubt they will correct you if you call it Christmas break. "

napkin56 wrote on Jan 6, 2009 8:28 AM:

" 3 weeks is still too long. It gets dark at 5:00. The weather is cold and rainy. It's not fair to kids and parents. Put the week back in summer. "

Bill wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:24 AM:

" Is it spring break yet? Why can't we call it Easter break? "

funnyme wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:20 AM:

" Oh Bill, we actually could call it Easter Break,
Semana Santa or Pascua Break...You are a genius! "

Raven wrote on Jan 8, 2009 9:18 PM:

" Passover break? "

funnyme wrote on Jan 9, 2009 5:39 AM:

" No. "Pascua Break"...it includes more. "

Raven wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:17 AM:

" but without Passover would you have a Pascua Break? "

Bill wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:59 AM:

" We are almost there. Keep this inane thread going. "

Raven wrote on Jan 11, 2009 3:47 PM:

" I am holding out for a spring equinox break... "

funnyme wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:02 AM:

" Of course, Pascua is part of Catholic traditions as well...equinox break would be a total nonsense, unless you are young, beautiful and in Florida partying. "

Raven wrote on Jan 12, 2009 12:26 PM:

" and the problem with that is?..;-) "

funnyme wrote on Jan 12, 2009 3:26 PM:

" Not a problem as long as the "majority" fulfills the requirements: young, gorgeous, and in Florida, or anyone of those tropical paradise kind of places.
I for once, would have a problem fulfilling at least two of the requirements :) "

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