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Why attack the messenger?

Sunday, November 09, 2008

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By DAN ROSS

'Leet' is language of the Internet generation

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Should marijuana be legalized?

Attacks in the story comments attached to each NapaValleyRegister.com article take many forms — all of them disturbing since this should be a forum for community debat — and I find it sad to realize how many people cannot debate a topic without attacking the messenger.

The latest attack is directed at those who choose to use their text messaging or leet-speak form of communication when they reply to a story online. When doing so, other commenters attack them for their use of the English language in a way they do not agree with.

Why is the method a person chooses to communicate with something that should make people so irate and leave them in a position where they have to attack the messengers?

In one article about a gang-related murder, some of the people commenting have used text-like and leet-speak posts to get their messages across. In doing so, others have let loose to attack them and their communication styles in what I see as a very sad statement of the ability to accept other views.

One commenter referred to the method as “Gansta grammer.” Yes, they attack others for their use of the language, but have spelling errors in their own attacks, while others toss in comments such as, “seriously, most of you need to learn to spell,” “Are the young people in Napa as stupid as they write? Ever hear of a dictionary or a sentence?” and more.

Welcome to online communicating, folks. If you are going to participate in online community debates, you should understand people are going to communicate in various methods, including that of a standard “text,” language.

If this is bothersome or offensive to you, well, it is time to get used to the fact not every person chooses to communicate in the same method you do.

Admittedly, even some of those defending the text messaging style add their own typo’s in their replies, with items like, “Wow r u serious? All you people are actually going to get on here and argue about spelling and grammer???????? You gotta be jokeing me. Who cares if people write in text messaging form, that does not mean that they didn't go to school or that they don't have a education, or that they should be considerd GANG MEMBERS!”

Claims, however, that choosing to use leet-speak methods to communicate online means these individuals are uneducated and are not to be considered as part of mainstream society is pretty extreme in my book, such as this comment indicates.

”If a writer wants to be taken seriously by anyone outside his or her circle, that writer should observe the conventions of written language. Writers who use "u" for "you" and "r" for "are" and "lil" for "little", can't spell or punctuate and don't much care are consigning themselves to the fringe. The power structure will ignore them.”

While I don’t agree with many comments on one side or the other, one person summed my feelings up quite well by posting, “you are writing ONLINE in and ONLINE blog! That sort of typing is not "gangster". it's not even "youth". that is a style of writing that was created by computer nerds decades ago! so most likely, by YOUR generation! it is actually listed as its own language and NVR wrote an article on it within the last 6 months!”

That article by Jillian Jones, for those of you wishing to educate yourself, is available by clicking here.

As for being ignored by “the power structure,” seems leet-speak made it all the way to the dictionary, as Merriam-Webster named “w00t”(an expression of joy) its 2007 word of the year.

Dan Ross is NapaValleyRegister.com’s Multimedia Producer. He writes on local, state and national issues. He can be reached at 265.2264 or dross@napanews.com.

94 comment(s)

PlasticPInkFlamingo wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:12 PM:

" Dan sez: If this is bothersome or offensive to you, well, it is time to get used to the fact not every person chooses to communicate in the same method you do.

Yes, that should be said to those who wish to communicate in a form that is not practiced by a large percentage of the population. If you want people to read, appreciate and understand what your point is, then it should be presented in mainstream English in order to get the largest audience. If you don't care, don't expect me to. I've learned some leet but it's just not a high priority for me. I have enough to keep up with normal English, jargon in my business world, jargon in my friends' worlds, jargon in my hobby worlds, etc.

I have no problem with those who want to practice their leet-speak, and I haven't been attacking any messengers lately (except maybe ruff and bill and raven and 14obama, only because they seem to thrive on it and I wouldn't want to deprive them of their little fun). But I won't be reading or responding to any leet-speak anytime soon. w00t! "

winemd wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:26 PM:

" Maybe the Register needs a translator for some of the text-leet posts. I have had to look up some of the abbreviations used. "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:28 PM:

" PPF:
My point is why would people work so hard to state people using this are illiterate and/or unable to be accepted in mainstream society?
I don't find it all that easy to follow, either, but I don't reject their opinions because I find the communication method awkward. "

littlered56 wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:47 PM:

" Dan,

I think it would be really cool if you published a list of these abbreviations used here. It might be of help to us old folks. We can all learn something new and that is ALWAYS a good thing.
Love this site and love reading all the messages...thanks "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:50 PM:

" littlered:
Good idea, will do so on Monday "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Nov 7, 2008 3:11 PM:

" I don't reject their opinions either, but if they want to get their point across, it will need to be in the broadest form of understandable communication to get the widest audience. I know lots of people including those in my family who use leet-speak and I know for a fact they are not gangsters (well, there may be a couple of distant relations I'm not sure about . . . ) I just tell them to talk to me so I can understand it. I'll probably get around to be fluent in leet-speak but it's not happening today.

Just to illustrate I'm not a technology caveman - I've been involved with personal computers since my friend brought over his Commodore 64 to show me, and I was personal friends with some of the engineers who were developing cell phone technology before it ever came to market. It was fascinating. Imagine back then being told I would soon be able to buy a cellular radio telephone no bigger than a briefcase or a shoebox . . . seemed too good to be true. I'll bet even they were surprised at how small cell phones have become, and how quickly an experienced texter can text on a small telephone keypad! (how much text can a texter text if a texter could text text?) Lots of w00tage there! (yeah go look it up if you don't know . . . "

Cadence wrote on Nov 8, 2008 7:25 AM:

" Anyone reading NVR online can google a leet dictionary online and translate as needed. The dictionaries are free and there are several. And any parent who is unaware is at risk of having the wool pulled over his eyes big time. Plos! "

napadad wrote on Nov 8, 2008 8:20 AM:

" ROTFLMAO "

Sandra wrote on Nov 8, 2008 8:27 AM:

" what the h311 is leet speak? "

a teacher wrote on Nov 8, 2008 9:44 AM:

" Because it's lazy.

Because communicating in a language only half the people understand is not communication (imagine the response if a poster wrote in Spanish). "

steph wrote on Nov 8, 2008 12:06 PM:

" Help! I'm on the fence and I can't get off!

I like the NVR comments better than the news articles at times. I like reading what people "on the ground" have to say and think. While I find spelling and grammatical errors to be distracting, I don't think they invalidate people's opinions or experience. I make errors myself, though I try not to. And I believe the use of "leet speak" is a generational division. If older people want to keep up with the times, they'll educate themselves to the evolution of language.

One of your own editors, Dan, threatened to ban comments that were all-caps, something I pleaded against.

But you know, there IS a correlation between lack of education--the eschewing of (free!!) education--and involvement in gang activity. And a blatant display of one's lack of education in the defense of accused criminals is going to be met with much skepticism and judgement. If you can't spell or write a complete sentence--as opposed to using a modern language form--you're displaying a great deal of ignorance. Sorry! Some of us are completely exasperated by the glorification of the gangster lifestyle and dropping out of school, having fatherless children, etc. The message from the grammar police is, pay attention in school--your choices aren't funny, they're not cool, they're not serving anyone, including yourself. You can't be taken very seriously if you choose to not educate yourself! If you choose to write like a juvenile without capitalization or punctuation, people may dismiss your opinion--but this is a choice you make. It doesn't hurt for young people to listen to the wisdom of older people and vice-versa. Both sides here make valid points. We'd all do well to listen more. "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Nov 8, 2008 12:34 PM:

" n00bs ph34r Sandra teh FMC . . .

Keep this thread open long enough and I may learn leetspeak faster than I thought I would! "

misfit wrote on Nov 8, 2008 1:34 PM:

" I would much rather read the leet posts over the long winded, love to "Hear" themselves speak, regulars on these blogs. "

kevin wrote on Nov 8, 2008 6:08 PM:

" I don't know either Sandra, but I think it means we're OLD... "

pharper wrote on Nov 8, 2008 7:14 PM:

" I think that Mr. Ross is right. Vernacular has changed a lot over the years, and it will continue to change. I'm not saying we should all learn leet and get over it, but it's not going to go away. Most of my friends are highly intelligent, articulate people, but they (unlike me) choose to use text-style speech when writing e-mails or texting, and it doesn't bother me.

However, I do think the best and most efficient way to get a point across is to use proper grammar and punctuation, if for no other reason than the smarter you sound, the more valid your argument sounds. :) "

steph wrote on Nov 9, 2008 10:39 AM:

" Phoebe, my dear, you DO sound very smart and valid!

I've enjoyed reading your posts over at the prop-8 articles.

You're young and tireless--but always polite and articulate. "

NVGal wrote on Nov 9, 2008 6:19 PM:

" We are such a diversified community, and have so many different viewpoints, but the one thing that we have in common when we are on the NVR website is mainstream English. We can have a dialog with others here where in our everyday lives our paths would never cross. Sometimes it is hard enough to understand an opposing viewpoint written in plain old English, let alone some underground language. As a blogging community we still have a long way to go in the department of “healthy debates” and respecting each other’s point of view, that now asking that we are tolerant of an underground language not know to many of us seems as if the expectations at this time are set too high.

Not saying we won’t get there at some point, for me, I will learn it as soon as I see Ruff using it! "

PlasticPinkFlamingo wrote on Nov 9, 2008 8:43 PM:

" If ruff did use leet . . . how could you tell? "

jonb3333 wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:06 PM:

" Wow, I can't believe raven doesn't have something to inflict on all of us...
I like reading these articles too. Sometimes peoples views, including my own, are so damn funny, that I laugh for a couple days.
And we can all use some humor these days...
And sometimes the truth is said. Whatever the truth is for each individual.
However, I do agree SOME people take it way too far... Way too full of themselves...
If you can't understand someones writing, then what they said propbably wasn't worth a crap to you anyway. So why not just ignore it...??? "

selim wrote on Nov 10, 2008 9:55 AM:

" I love it...the editor for the local newspaper defending the use if improper English and grammar. Noting the number of errors I find in each lovely issue of the NVR that graces my doorstep, I'm not surprised. What's next, Dan...defending Valley Speak as valid cultural expression? Like, oh my god! Did you, like, hear about the grody tax hike? Gag me with a spoon!

Call me elitist, but if you sound like an idiot, and spell like an idiot, you will be taken as seriously as an idiot. Either get with the program and learn the de facto language, or be prepared for a lifetime of marginalization.

Those who know & use proper English have the skills and tools to be in the position of advantage and opportunity. You think Obama got elected because of his masterful use of l33t? Nope...he got elected in part because of his ability to use proper English to convey his message to an electorate that normally would not have voted for him. Now, go ahead and tell me that proper English doesn't matter. I'll try to listen with a straight face.

Or, to put it another way, it is better to keep your mouth shut and for people to think you're a fool, rather than open it and remove all doubt. "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Nov 10, 2008 10:44 AM:

" selim:
I don't call people names, most of the time, so I'll let you label yourself based on your reply here.
I never stated proper English does not matter. I stated there is more than one way to communicate online, and having the ability to tolerate others who choose to communicate differently leads to a healthy rather than attack-based debate. "

selim wrote on Nov 10, 2008 1:14 PM:

" Wow, Dan Ross with a zinger...be still my heart. Now if you were only so quick with the paper's typos for which you are paid to correct, we'd be getting somewhere. But I digress...

There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. I can absolutely tolerate people who can't communicate past the textual-equivalent of pointing & grunting.

And Dan, you in fact DO state in your own way that proper English does not matter, by placing equal importance on those scrawling this "e-hillbilly" speak. By this standard, communicating by armpit-farting is as valid as Shakespeare. It's okay to have some standards, Dan.

And I don't care if some group has considered "leet speak" a "real language" (seriously...give me a break already). And I care even less that "leet speak" was "created" by my generation. My generation has done a bunch of boneheaded things, let's not consider rampant misspellings a-ok just because a bunch of over caffeinated gen x'ers decided to be lazy at a keyboard.

Look, rules are rules, and you can either follow them or not. If you want to contribute fully to a "healthy discussion", you'll follow the rules...because I guarantee you, all other things being equal, the side with the best language skills will win. People don't look down on someone who spells & speaks well...it just doesn't happen. So you can "w00t" all you want if it makes you feel hip or tech savvy. But on the other side of thousands of computer screens are educated Americans, shaking their heads in dismay that a newspaper editor in the 21st century is waving the flag of surrender against the onslaught of illiterates. "

pharper wrote on Nov 10, 2008 1:16 PM:

" Thank you, steph!

I've been considering a career in law, but maybe politics is a better route, judging from everything that happens here on the Register website...

Selim, an argument doesn't have to be perfectly phrased and written out in formal English for it to be valid. I agree that something that is written out using proper grammar, spelling and punctuation sounds more articulate. However, most people don't write the way they talk, an vice versa. I know plenty of very intelligent people who use shortened words and the "text-style" of typing when online, but who speak very eloquently in life. I also know some not-so-intelligent people who write everything out in 'proper" English. One can't judge a person or their based on the kind of writing they do. "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Nov 10, 2008 1:23 PM:

" selim:
e-hillbilly speak and illiterates?
Thanks for providing a very nice example of the headline here by attacking the messengers. "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Nov 10, 2008 1:25 PM:

" pharper:
Thanks for giving a fine example on why attacking the messenger and the form of communication doesn't contribute to any semblance of online debate at all. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 10, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Getting irate with people who use leet is a waste of time. However, I'm Selim on leet in general. In general I skip over those comments. The fact that one would write in leet is a message in and of it's self, and not one I nescessarally appreciate.

If the President gave the State of the Union address dressed in a Speedo bathing suit, it wouldn't much matter how elloquent or important the speech was. "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Nov 10, 2008 2:35 PM:

" a teacher:
Thanks for the comment, but I think that's quite a stretch from the topic here. We are talking about how people communicate in online forums, not how a President addresses the nation.
If I am texting in a comment for a story, I'll use a very abbreviated communication form so it is easily received, while I'll use a different form if I am addressing a crowd of people.
The two forms, I believe, can each exist in their own realms without people needing to make derogatory comments about the communication methods chosen. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 10, 2008 2:58 PM:

" I disagree Dan. If the form the message takes is sufficiently unusual, it detracts from the message, fairly or not. And, if such a form is purposeful, that is a message itself.

I remember reading that when people hear a southern accent they automatically deduct 10 points from the speaker's IQ. Not fair, but true. When I see a comment written in leet, I envision some one who is purposely appearing less intelligent in order to appear cool. This is something I fight daily with my young students.

We live in an anti-intellectual society. People hate intelligence and go to great lengths to cover it up. I'll fight that any way I can. "

elb wrote on Nov 10, 2008 4:38 PM:

" "Thank you for calling the Napa Valley Register. For English, press 1. For Spanish, press 2. For Leet, press 3.

Are you kidding me? Even those who try to use the English language don't use it very well anymore. An eight year-old school girl in the 1800's could most likely run circles around all of us. --Just look at some of the old readers that were used in elementary levels back then.

If we are evolving as a people, as so many claim is the case, then why does it seem that we are spending more and more of our time grunting and thoroughly confused by and with one another?

What is so darn wrong with English, proper? "

cellsitegod wrote on Nov 10, 2008 5:01 PM:

" I believe People started using this type of "text language" because of cell phones.
You have a limited number of characters allowed for each text message. Therefore, people tried to use as few characters as possible to get their message through.
An example;
One commentor used the word "Truss" several times. Looking at the word in the sentences. I could only think they meant "Trust"
Same amount of characters for either word.
Tell me, is that a language or bad grammer?
I text message all the time. Sometimes I use text language (when I can think of it)
However, there is a time and place for it.
Realistically, Don't you think these people are just using bad grammer? "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 10, 2008 5:05 PM:

" Dan – I agree with you and disagree with you about this. I think that the forum is what makes the difference.

My kids are all very computer language “fluent” and they “text” each other and their friends with the cell using this type of jargon because of limited time and space when conversing via cellular text. For my children on myspace or on cell they may communicate however they desire. I am able translate the extent of their language at the ripe old age of 33.

However; when addressing a community in an online forum, it is most appropriate, in order to clarify your position, to use proper English grammar. This ensures that your message is heard by as many people as possible. There is no better way to reach nearly the entire spectrum of your audience than to use correct English grammar. Impact is the goal of a forum such as this, the greater the impact, the more successful a blogger one becomes.

When entering a public forum it is inappropriate to communicate in a way that does not present your message in a way that all people can understand it. There are many people unfamiliar with the jargon.

I agree that the opinions of people who choose to use a different language, per say, should not be identified as uneducated, or ignorant. I have seen many a valid opinion hiding inside a very poorly written blog. When making that choice, people should not be surprised when people some people say…what?...huh?...I don’t understand…! "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 10, 2008 5:05 PM:

" As blog readers we need to be understanding and open minded, trying to gather as many perspectives as possible to widen our own perspectives.

As blog writers we need to try encourage others to broaden their understanding by encouraging them to consider an alternative opinion (namely our own).

The problem here is that people choose to use this as a podium to drum their ideals into the heads of everyone. Repeating the same mantra endlessly, searching for an inconsistency or grammatical error to pounce on and discredit. It’s akin to preparing what you’re going to say next while you “listen” to someone else in a verbal conversation. It’s…well…just plain rude! "

steph wrote on Nov 10, 2008 6:38 PM:

" "People hate intelligence and go to great lengths to cover it up."

Nah. What they hate is pseudo-intellectual snobbery, or intellectual elitism. They hate egocentric superiority being lorded over them, and they hate not being taken seriously just because they are not of the means to fly all over the world or attend an expensive university. The mistake many intellectuals make is that they don't know how to listen to those beneath them--they lack warmth and a sense of humor. Book smarts do not translate necessarily into social efficacy--and sometimes they are a conspicuous coverup for social awkwardness. Some intellectuals really lack people skills. Some excellent sales people are not super educated, but they're really, really smart nonetheless. Some intellectuals are so dismissive, and it raises the hackles of the hard working class--rightfully so.

I know--some of the most educated people are also the dumbest. Some of the smartest people I know are not good writers.

With regard to intellectualism, think John Kerry vs. Barack Obama. One is a bore, the other is well-rounded. Both are intellectuals. One is well-liked.

In defense of your position, I understand there is a movement afoot in the Republican party to be less dismissive of ALL intellectualism as elitism, which would be a smart move. I know this would be a step in the right direction for me--to bring a better balance of ideas into the only viable right-wing political party in the nation. "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 10, 2008 8:51 PM:

" I saw my mom “opiniagirl” blogging about this and I decided to comment as well. I am a 14 year old High School Freshman. I think that it is very difficult, mostly for teens, to be taken seriously by people. I hear my peers complain constantly that they are underestimated and misunderstood by the adults in their lives. I hear college students complain of the snobbery of most “Napkins”.
The stereotypes exist; we cannot change the mindset of an entire community, and I don’t think it is our place to even try. I am shocked when the adults in my life seem impressed by my ability to take responsibility for the way I speak, dress, work, interact with others, etc. The truth is; all the teens that I know have these same abilities and choose not to realize them. They choose to throw their potential under the bus, using the fact that they are teenagers to excuse their bad choices and lifestyles.
Calling the lazy, hurried language of IM and cell phone texting a new form of “communication” is yet another accommodation that adults are providing to teens and young adults that are unwilling to meet their own potential. This new “language” should not be acknowledged as a reasonable form of communication outside of cell phone and IM use. If I hear one more of my friends say “OMG”, I think I might just lose it!
So I guess this is my first comment, I have to say it’s pretty funny that my mom is “opiniagirl” and I am “opiniateen” which makes me appear older than she is, so everyone should tell her to respect her elder, haha…love you mom! OK back to my Economics homework…yuck! "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 10, 2008 9:18 PM:

" “Opiniateen”
omg u took the plunge..wlcm!

This btr nt gt n the way of schl or else!

u r awsm, w8 till they get 2 no u!

cya l8r

<3 u "

opiniateen wrote on Nov 10, 2008 9:33 PM:

" Oops! I used the wrong log in earlier. Chalk it up to newbie error!

Cute mom, kindof counterproductive though, don't you think? But thanks anyway! :P "

elb wrote on Nov 10, 2008 10:27 PM:

" Okay there must be a mother/daughter blogger award for these two. You guys are incredibly adorable. You must have great fun in real life if you're able to have this much fun on a blog. Wonderful! "

a teacher wrote on Nov 10, 2008 10:32 PM:

" steph. Two comments. You made this into some political thing. This is about 30 years of working with kids. Nearly every day I watch some child choose to be stupid because being smart would allow them to being ripped open.

Your entire response is exactly what I mean. Americans look at someone intelligent and thinks there must be something wrong with them. The whole "elitism" thing is a straw man argument, an argument against something that doesn't exist. Smart people actually live in the world you and I do. They have similar experiences. Being intellectual is not a sign of being out of touch. The whole "elitism" thing doesn't exist. It's a made up construct to score points politically.

Smart people do know better, because they are smarter. I don't want an idiot operating on me. I don't want a moron representing me in court. I don't want an imbecile teaching my children. I want the elites running things. They are likely to do a better job.

I am sick to death of our children choosing failure because they don''t want to be called a nerd. Writing like an illiterate to be cool is just irritating. "

Bill wrote on Nov 10, 2008 10:45 PM:

" Words have meaning. It’s a stretch to call blogging a debate. As a forum for developing writing habits it might have some merit even in the so called creative edge of leet speak or text messaging. Many are better typists some excellent spellers and those that actually put thought into their posts have a personality in their writing albeit many unintentionally. The computer speak short hand becomes dull very soon with a closer association to valley speak where the short cuts are all place holder similes repeated “like” high fives by the hip and in the know. It is nothing new, emoticons and their advocates were around before computers. In some places they are fun rather like a dance of savvy butt bumpers, great at a party but with no point outside the value of cool. Placing the quip LOL, BTW or something less obvious is similar to bending around meaning as government anagrams.

As for misspellings, run on sentences, comma splices or the lack of capitalization or its improper use this is a medium for experimenting with language and bending the rules. Much of the time it is the simple heat of the comment that the writer can not control which leads them down a poorly thought out road but then there has to be some spontaneity, a chance at serendipity in such a democratic medium where the poster must be forgiven mistakes or ignorance of certain writing rules and allowed to blurt out what might otherwise be left unsaid. The idea is to speak your mind and use it form your style or opinion not to bludgeon other for their lack of sophistication.

No one out here is truly convincing anyone; mainly they appreciate only the sound in their own ears. "

Paddy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 9:51 AM:

" I believe the rule of thumb should be if you have a keyboard use the keys available to you. Would you write a letter using textese?

The languages of humanity are rich and vibrant and have evolved slowly and carefully over tens of thousands of years. Why would we not honor, in this case, the English language and celebrate every syllable?

Honestly, I believe that society is falling into a trend of shortcuts as the norm instead of shortcuts to optimize. We're falling into the trap of lower expectations for the sake of expediency in order to manage all of the challenges and expectations in day to day life.

There is a time and place for text- message-grammar but it should never be in a classroom, newspaper, magazine books or comment boards like this one. "

Paddy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 9:57 AM:

" Dan writes: "Attacks in the story comments attached to each NapaValleyRegister.com article take many forms — all of them disturbing since this should be a forum for community debat —"

Dan, "debat"? Are you making a point or, perhaps, are hours of texting causing the brain to slip? "

NVR-Dan Ross wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:48 AM:

" Paddy:
That's from trying to write the column in the 30-minute window I had during an 18-hour workday. So, did you believe that one??? Didn't think so, damn .... "

Joe wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:49 AM:

" Why replace an e with a 3. It doesn't save any time typing. It doesn't make sense, it's just as easy to push e. "

Joe wrote on Nov 11, 2008 11:07 AM:

" Many of these words people are typing are just ebonics. It's sad to see that people think it's cool to act illiterate. They are not just typing like this, it's how they speak. Maybe High School's should have speech therapy to teach kids how to speak proper English. There is no reason to say "der" for there. Or "wit" for with.
Actually, I don't even care that these people talk like that. My kids won't. All these people can be the one's to not get jobs and be broke. I say let's cut some of the funding for education. Let kids that don't want to go to school drop out. Many kids being forced to go to school just get in the way of educating kids that care. Then they will turn to the military because they won't have any money and won't be able to take care of themselves. It would help out the military recruiters. We should also have working programs for all the one's that end up in prison so our tax money is not going to just support them while sitting in prison. Make them get out there in the hot sun doing hard labor. "

pharper wrote on Nov 11, 2008 3:48 PM:

" I don't think kids have a problem with intelligence, and I don't think intelligence is looked down upon. I go to New Tech, and I know that there's not a single kid there who wants to be seen as stupid. I have to assume it's basically the same at Napa High and Vintage. It isn't "cool" anymore to be unintelligent, and it's not somehow uncool anymore to be a "nerd" or a "geek." frankly, if being called a geek means I'm smart and I get good grades, I'm cool with that.

The thing is, using "textese" or leet doesn't make someone sound dumb anymore--at least in my opinion. I'll admit that I think people sound smarter when they type using regular English, but vernacular is changing, and with the new ability to send things instantly, words are shortened and abbreviated. It doesn't have anything to do with a lack of intelligence or a dislike of intelligent people, it's just the way language (especially among youth) changes over periods of time. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Nov 11, 2008 4:07 PM:

" Apparently, expecting a writer to use standard English is to expect too much. Affable barbarians run amok. Heaven help us! "

a teacher wrote on Nov 11, 2008 5:52 PM:

" I don't know Ms. Harper. From my perspective things haven't changed much in 30 years in terms of how people view intelligence and how that plays out in schools. I routinely watch kids dumb down to gain acceptence and avoid ridicule.

Schools have to fight for programs that foster deeper learning, such as music, art and drama, but no schools have to justify their team sports programs. My former wife, who is a Vintage High graduate tells me that when she was in school, summer school was for getting extra classes to graduate early. When was the last time you heard of that? "

wipemedown wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:07 PM:

" Huh, you know something? I always thought that dogs laid eggs. So, yeah. I learned something today. "

pharper wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:43 PM:

" My mom actually graduated school early by taking classes in the summer. They don't let us do that anymore, though, as far as I know. Summer school classes are for underperforming students or students who need credits in order to move on0. We can, however, take college classes in order to graduate early. I have several friends who are not only taking the required senior classes, but who are starting on their general education for college. By the time a couple of them graduate, they'll be done or almost done with their freshman year of college.

Maybe it's different at the middle and elementary schools; I can't really remember the culture in middle school as far as that went--I wasn't very outgoing. But at least now, I don't see many (if any) students who purposely try not to be smart. It's cool when your peers know that you're intelligent, and it's actually kind of fun (for me, at least) when people ask me to edit essays and stuff for them. :) "

Joe wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:49 PM:

" Ithinkthisisagoodwayoftypingmessagesbecauseiamsavingroomandtimebynothavingtousemyspacebar.maybeitishardtoreadbutitisanewwayofcommunicatingsoishouldn'tbecriticizedforbeinguniquepeopleshouldtolerateit. "

cellsitegod wrote on Nov 12, 2008 5:26 AM:

" I think Most people here agree that "Leet" has it's place.....On a cell phone, where your characters are limited or in personal communications between friends.
Not, in a formal impersonal environment.
Would anyone send a formal letter to someone they do not know in "Leet"?
"pig latin" was popular among young people years ago.
That doesn't mean we should use it. "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 12, 2008 8:16 AM:

" ringbay ackbay igpay atinlay! "

old_napan52 wrote on Nov 12, 2008 11:24 AM:

" a teacher - "Because communicating in a language only half the people understand is not communication (imagine the response if a poster wrote in Spanish). "

Hola profesor, si usted escribe en español entonces más que mitad la gente entendería - in southern california english is the second language. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 12, 2008 12:57 PM:

" old_napan52:"Hola profesor, si usted escribe en español entonces más que mitad la gente entendería - in southern california english is the second language. "

I'm not sure what you said (I failed too many Spanish classes in High School), so i can't respond to it. Which was my point. "

jersey guy wrote on Nov 12, 2008 1:01 PM:

" Text shorthand should be used when texting, but not in a public forum. This form of language was developed for texting with a telephone keypad. As more and more people own cellphones with a full "QWERTY" keyboard, this texting shorthand will become unnecessary and obsolete, sort of like a "dead" language.

The problem with the original blog where all of this started was that certain people were communicating personally by using texting shorthand. They were not using this as a public forum. They were communicating within their own circle. This should have been done by texting to cellphones, or by using instant messaging to individuals.

The messenger was not being shot, as there was no message. "

winemd wrote on Nov 12, 2008 1:06 PM:

" If someone wrote in Spanish, would everyone automatically assume they are dumb? Oh, that's right, not dumb, just illegal. "

old_napan52 wrote on Nov 12, 2008 2:58 PM:

" Thanks teach - you made my point which was that more than half the people would understand what I wrote. Why did you fail spanish in school anyway, were you afraid someone might label you? "

a teacher wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:56 PM:

" I failed Spanish because I was a lazy kid (plus I'm horrible with language). I regret that now.

I suppose that Dan has a point about attacking people over speaking l33t, but I have a point also. As to your point, if I were posting on a Mexican board (or German or French) I would not assume that any one could understand me if i were to post in English. We do, however, live in the USA where the official language is English. It is reasonable to expect that the audience for an English language periodical expects comments written in English. "

pharper wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:45 PM:

" We actually don't have an official language in the United States, for the same reason we don't have an official religion.

Just...for the record. =D "

a teacher wrote on Nov 12, 2008 9:38 PM:

" Ms. Harper. I stand corrected, we do not have an official language (although not for the same reason we don't have an official religion). However, i would submit to you that English is the defacto official language since all official business and documents are in English. That wasn't my point anyway. "

pharper wrote on Nov 12, 2008 10:32 PM:

" I just wanted to clarify. It's something I've seen in a lot of posts (especially in topics concerning immigration) so I wanted to maybe clear it up.

I do understand your point, though. :) "

cellsitegod wrote on Nov 13, 2008 4:40 AM:

" Press 1 for Spanish,
Press 2 for"text/leet speak",
Press 3 for "pig latin"
Press 4 for "Gangsta Grammar"
and last but not least,
Press 5 for the rarely used: good old "american english"
Ha, Ha, or LOL "

a teacher wrote on Nov 13, 2008 6:06 AM:

" Actually, in California, the official language is English, as it is in about 30 states. "

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Nov 13, 2008 7:04 AM:

" Tens of millions of American adults are functionally illiterate. Nevertheless, those of us that know how to read and write above the fourth grade level are to be tolerant of the affable barbarians among us who use alternative means of communication. If one only knows one way to communicate, one is not choosing a form of communication. It is more fun breaking the rules if one knows the rules! There is a time and a place for different modes of communication. The NVR does not allow vulgar language on its pages. Why not? Because vulgar language is not just an alternative means by which to communicate, vulgar language is rude. Therefore, I believe that using poor grammar and spelling---unless done intentionally---ought to be avoided. Using non-standard English ain't always appropriate. "

jersey guy wrote on Nov 13, 2008 8:29 AM:

" How am I supposed to know that w00t is an expression of joy in leet-speak? This is a perfect example of the use of a different language and if people are going to communicate in leet-speak which is another language, there ought to be a separate blog for people who wish to communicate in that language. "

winemd wrote on Nov 13, 2008 8:56 AM:

" I just figured out my way to a million bucks! Online forums need translation software for leet. One click to instantly translate. Maybe I should just contact babelfish and let them handle it since I can't write software. Oh, well... "

Joe wrote on Nov 13, 2008 10:50 AM:

" I aint even be noin y so many peeps wit der comments r carin. no 1 tels them how 2 speak. w3 all jus need 2 r3sp3ct 1 another. "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 13, 2008 12:06 PM:

" English is the language of the United States of America, maybe not “officially” or “legally”, but to anyone with common sense it is pretty clear.

The majority of the population speaks English as a native language (about 82%.) The variety of English spoken in the United States is known as American English; together with Canadian English it makes up the group of dialects known as North American English. 96% of the population of the U.S. speaks English "well" or "very well".

As far as immigration is concerned, people that come here to settle, especially illegally, and don’t bother to learn the publically acknowledged "official" language are lazy, rude and inconsiderate to the people who have no choice but to interact with them. "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 13, 2008 12:12 PM:

" "A teacher" is correct - States can individually acknowledge English as the official language and many have - including California. So unless y'all move - looks like English IS the official language here - glad to see that this little jab will be put to rest, it seems to come up alot during "immigration" excuses.

States with official English
Alabama (1990)[12]
Alaska (1998)[13]
Arizona (2006)[14]
Arkansas (1987)[15]
California (1986)[16]
Colorado (1988)[17]
Florida (1988)[18]
Georgia (1986, 1996)
Hawaii (1978)
Idaho (2007)[19]
Illinois (1969)[20]
Indiana (1984)
Iowa (2002)[21]
Kansas (2007)
Kentucky (1984)
Louisiana (1807)[a]
Massachusetts (1975)
Mississippi (1987)
Missouri (1998)
Montana (1995)
Nebraska (1920)
New Hampshire (1995)
North Carolina (1987)
North Dakota (1987)
South Carolina (1987)
South Dakota (1987)
Tennessee (1984)
Utah (2000)
Virginia (1981, 1996)
Wyoming (1996)
a ProEnglish includes Louisiana in this list even though Louisiana has no de Jure official language, asserting that in 1807 the state adopted English as a condition to admittance to the union.

States without official English
Connecticut
Delaware*
Maine
Maryland*
Michigan
Minnesota
Nevada
New Mexico
New Jersey*
New York
Ohio*
Oklahoma*
Oregon
Pennsylvania*
Rhode Island*
Texas
Vermont
Washington*
West Virginia*
Wisconsin* "

reason-ator wrote on Nov 13, 2008 1:09 PM:

" Yep, if you want someone to read an opinion, it's not good to dissuade them from reading it.

Even if the censors have condoned it. "

pharper wrote on Nov 13, 2008 2:17 PM:

" Something interesting happened today at school, and it reminded me of this thread:

During lunch, a big group of friends (ten or so people) and I were sitting in the bed of someone's truck eating, and some of us had our high school transcripts. We spent probably the majority of lunch time arguing over who had better GPAs, grades, and why we did or didn't have good grades in one class or another. We also talked about class ranks and about how hard we're trying since it's now senior year.

I just thought I'd share that as one piece of evidence that youth DO actually care about being intelligent. Conversations happen like that all the time. "

a teacher wrote on Nov 13, 2008 4:28 PM:

" Ms. Harper. Just keep in mind that you attend a school that selects intelligent, highly motivated students. "

Joe wrote on Nov 13, 2008 4:56 PM:

" No one cares about you and your friends Pharper. The point is about people who don't use proper English. "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 13, 2008 5:24 PM:

" Some youth care... naturally this is not an often experienced discussion amongst teen friends. "

pharper wrote on Nov 13, 2008 5:31 PM:

" My point, Joe, is that no matter what form of communication we might use ("textese," leet, pig latin) we aren't allowing intellect to simply slide down the drain. It's something that is still important to all of us. "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 13, 2008 5:36 PM:

" some of you...not all, statistically not even half! "

pharper wrote on Nov 13, 2008 5:37 PM:

" It's a conversation I've had many times with many different people, opiniagirl. Of course, I can't speak for any other high school but New Tech, but I've had conversations with people from many different schools, and I know that most (probably not all) of the teenagers I've talked to are intelligent, thoughtful, and interested in the future--the way they speak online may not be indicative of that, but we can't judge people based on the way they write in a fairly informal setting such as this (granted, it is much more formal than texting or instant messaging, but it's still fairly informal, I would say). "

Raven wrote on Nov 13, 2008 7:15 PM:

" Joe, can you act like a bigger jerk....? That was uncalled for, pharper is doing a great job expressing herself in proper English.... "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 13, 2008 7:57 PM:

" pharper

If I were one of those that "pounce" I would point out the fact that your last blog is one huge run-on sentance and disregard everything you said.

That aside, you are right - most youth are alot more in touch than people my think. My daughter certainly thinks so.

Why youth intelligence and goal oriented thinking are not nutured more is a mystery to me. Maybe it's a lack of parenting or education, maybe it's just ignored?

At any rate - Joe you were a little harsh with young Ms. Harper, at least she is interacting with the community, which is more than I can say for most youth!

I think most people do value the youth in this community and are interested in their perspectives.

The fact that you are young guargs you grom the harsh reality of this world, you will be judged and critiqued and critisized, in fact you already are.

We can all say we shouldn't judge, or we can't judge, however; only the truly naive and arrogant claim that they don't judge. "

opiniagirl wrote on Nov 13, 2008 7:58 PM:

" oops - I meant "guards" you...good thing nobody is judging my opinion based on my spelling...or are they???? Stupid laptop. "

Joe wrote on Nov 13, 2008 8:24 PM:

" Oh, I'm sorry I thought pharper was a guy for some reason. Now I feel bad..........alright, I'm done with this blogging stuff. I don't know how I got into this so much. I guess it was to learn how to type better. Now I'm typing pretty fast compared to when I started, pecking away at the keyboard. I'm going to try to stop now and do more golfing with my free time instead. This is just occupying too much of my time. "

pharper wrote on Nov 13, 2008 8:45 PM:

" It was a run-on sentence, but I thought it was viable—perhaps I was wrong. I'd have to ask my English teacher about that one. :)

I try to make sure that I'm not sheltered--I'm active in things outside my own comfort zone, and I try to look at all sides of an issue.

I think youth are severely underestimated in their activities, though. I think most youth are or have been positively involved in the community in one way or another. I think most teenagers are overwhelmingly involved in the community (both locally and globally) but our voices are not heard. We are often disregarded as "just kids."

At any rate, I wouldn't really worry about the future of the world insofar as intellect and the use of proper English go. Although we teenagers have adopted some new forms of shortened speech, we know when it's proper to use them and when it isn't--I don't expect to see any government essays written in leet anytime soon! "

ADark1 wrote on Nov 13, 2008 9:20 PM:

" Is so gld I doan ph34r those L337's ROTHFMBAO! "

Bill wrote on Nov 13, 2008 11:02 PM:

" It's not a run on sentence. There are misplaced comas and an unconventional double dash which should be a period but it is also an example of Dan's thesis, Attacking the messenger.

Because the message is not perfectly stated in the correct approved format may make its meaning harder to grasp but does not diminish the thought of the person formulating the message. In this instance It will drive pharper to improve already excellent skills and ability. "

krusty wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:51 AM:

" Granted, I'm not as young as some of the commenters that use this "text" language in this comment section, but I'm young enough to know what most of it means. I think there's a time and a place for that type of language. I'll use that language when I'm texting a friend or sibling, but it's not proper when typing a response on a public web site. A well written response does not mean your opinion should be valued more than that of someone who writes a poorly written response, but a well written response does get more respect from others than something poorly written and your opinion will most likely be taken more seriously. "

opiniateen wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:51 PM:

" Youth need to take responsibility for themselves and not play the victim card. We can make ourselves heard. "

pharper wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:02 PM:

" I'm not playing the victim card, but you can't deny that youth are often collectively billed as being just that. I think of myself as a fairly intelligent, expressive person, but I have been shut down before simply because of my age, and I'm sure you have been too. It doesn't mean you give up; it just means that you redirect. My point is that without drastic measures, we are often treated as though our opinions have little value. I don't mean that something can't be done about it, both universally and individually, but it does happen. "

opiniateen wrote on Nov 15, 2008 12:52 AM:

" I didn't mean you specifically. I think even adults can be dismissed easily by other adults. I just would love to see other youth step out of the box and take that challenge head on. We don't agree on some things, but I think that as youth we can do more to make our voices heard, I think that you do a great job, you are one of the reasons I started blogging. All youth opinions matter, even when we disagree! Especially when we disagree! I do agree with you that we care more than people think and that we are underestimated. =D "

pharper wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:31 PM:

" I hate to admit it, but you give me hope too. =D

We may not agree (and clearly don't, much of the time!) but I think it's really important that we speak out for those of us who don't or can't.

Teenagers do care! But all we hear about is the bad, not the good. "

asahigo wrote on Nov 15, 2008 7:33 PM:

" Directly from the "comment guidelines"

• Keep comments clear, concise and focused on the topic in the story.

Leet speak is far from clear or concise. "

opiniateen wrote on Nov 15, 2008 9:37 PM:

" We don;t afree on this, but we may agree on other issues...we'll see. Either way it will be worth the debate. "

skeptic wrote on Nov 19, 2008 1:29 PM:

" i want to congratulate dan on starting one of the most entertaining blogs with this comment. i have learned from both sides and most comments are understandable , well written and punctuated.
i tend to avoid caps(capital letters to the really traditional spellers) because the only available replacement for my 4 year old mac keyboard that broke was a $6 one that easily sticks when the cap is turned on, and you know what happens to those who post all in caps.
i do try to indent, as a helpful fellow blogger once suggested, but got into the habit of not doing it because the 300 word limit meant i had to delete a sentence to make up for the space one looses when doing proper indentation.
i remember being a teen ager and not being taken seriously and have always tried to keep up with the changes in language that happen every generation. i'll just put up the leet translation as an icon on the screen, when dan posts it, and use it to translate what i don't understand so i can catch up on the way our culture is changing.
i was with bill down to the last sentence, which i disagree with. i have changed my opinion more than once based on information made available by other posters.
other people have also admiited to changing their views when supplied by information that can be confirmed.
i'm generally impressed by the quality of the comments, from flamingo to the 2 opinions and everyone in between . i learn a lot by following the threads available on the register. thanks to everyone for contributing and especially those in school. we need the perspective of all ages. "

GrapetownBankerBoi707 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 7:42 PM:

" Sorry, I am late to the conversation. I have been working late and have quite a few things going on in my personal life.

I have so many different points i want to touch on and people that i want to reply to in this post.....however, seeing as how i am rather late in my response and my extreme exhaustion currently, I am simply going to jump in at the end and reply to pharper's most recent comments on this blog:

Pharper, you are absolutely correct! Our generation, especially those in this town are simply looked over, ignored and considered a "lost cause". There is hardly anywhere that anyone under the age of 20 or even 25 can be taken seriously! we are, as you put it: "just kids." it no longer even matters how we present ourselves. it used to be that kids with buzz cuts wearing baggy pants and flashy colors were looked at as "gang-bangers" and "thugs". they were never taken seriously even though many were neither of those things; rather, extremely intelligent beings that dress in accordance to where they come from or what their generation has considered the new "style". Now, though, adults look at ANY style of dress or speech or skin color and completely disregard the message because they it is delivered by a "kid".

when i went to college, i was just past 16. i didn't even have my permit yet. I was not taken seriously. my ideas were shot down and I was shoved to the back so to speak. I decided to grow out my goatee. suddenly everyone thought i was somewhere between 18 and 25. I was finally taken seriously. what changed? my intellect? my intelligence?

nope. just my looks. "

jersey guy wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:43 AM:

" You certainly won't be taken seriously if I can't understand what you are saying or what your point is because you are speaking in another language. Leet Speak is another language. "

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