Legal Aid counsels immigrants | Napa Valley Register

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Legal Aid counsels immigrants

More than 100 residents received consultations at event

Monday, September 29, 2008

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By CARLOS VILLATORO
Register Staff Writer

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The cost of seeing an attorney can be pricey, but on Sunday afternoon at Legal Aid of Napa Valley’s Immigration Forum it was free.

The forum, held at St. Helena Catholic School’s gymnasium, brought together nine attorneys from all over the Bay Area and paired them with individuals in need of immigration advice.

“We have been doing this since we started (Legal Aid) in 2005,” said Diana Dorame, executive director of Legal Aid. “It was time to do this. We like to come out into the community in a place that’s safe for them.”

One hundred or more residents from all over the valley came to the forum to receive 20-minute consultations from the group of volunteer attorneys. Napa resident Juana Mora came to seek advice about her 20-year-old son, who is facing deportation in Washington, she said.

When asked what she thought about the forum Mora said “It’s good ... it’s not so easy for people to pay (for an attorney).”

Mora said she hopes the attorney will be able to help her son. For attorneys like Richard Coshnear, who works part time at Legal Aid and is a Santa Rosa-based immigration attorney, donating his time is doing his part to help people navigate the waters of immigration law.

“We are dealing with questions that people bring to us,” he said. “Most of it is family immigration issues.”

Coshnear said the biggest obstacle for those who want to immigrate legally into the United States is the amount of time that it takes to get a visa. In some cases it can take 12 years or more before the visa is approved.

“You wonder why people come here illegally,” Coshnear said. “(It’s) because they can’t wait to be with their families.”

Coshnear said before he became an immigration lawyer he was a physician’s assistant and would see the large amount of people without access to health insurance.

While some individuals argue that illegal immigrants do not deserve to be able to see a doctor — since they broke immigration laws — Coshnear said “most criminals can pay their debt to society and move on with their lives, when do these people get to do it? I don’t think it’s criminal to cross the border when your family is starving.”

Participants who had problems that could not be solved in the 20-minute consultations were referred to Legal Aid for a follow-up visit, or to the attorneys themselves. Aside from Sunday’s forum, Legal Aid holds similar forums through partnerships formed with groups such as Puertas Abiertas and Calistoga Family Center. For more information about Legal Aid visit www.legalaidnapa.org.

79 comment(s)

mofosheee wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:34 AM:

" This is insanity I can't believe.....as the state this country goes bankrupt we have these entitlement minded people and agencies intent on destroying the American way of life.

I'm sure that the American men and women buried in our national cemetaries and I know that my father and I did not give their lives or make a career in the military so that 20 million immigrants could invade this country for a handout. "

cellsitegod wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:27 AM:

" Great!
Another reason for the illegal’s to come here, free legal advice.
Coshnear said — “most criminals can pay their debt to society and move on with their lives, when do these people get to do it?"
Answer — these people do get a chance:
Go or get sent back and try to get here according to our laws!
No jail time, no fine, just a free ride back. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

Coshnear said — "I don’t think it’s criminal to cross the border when your family is starving.”
According to our laws IT IS criminal! Our borders are not closed to LEGAL immigrants whose family is starving.
Coshnear said — “the biggest obstacle for those who want to immigrate legally into the United States is the amount of time that it takes to get a visa. In some cases it can take 12 years or more before the visa is approved"
What is the ratio of 3-8 months visa approvals to 12 years visa approval?
The only reason it may take years to get approval is not on our end.
We have specific requirements and guidelines that must be followed before a visa is issued.
If these people cannot provide the required documentation or they have a criminal past, sure it will take years.
I have been through the immigration process. Sure, it takes time and can be frustrating. But, if you’re not lazy and you really want it. It can happen.

Don’t we also have laws against "aiding and abetting a known criminal'? "

notpc wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:28 AM:

" We all make choices. Illegal immigration is illegal! Enforce the laws of any illegal immigrant from any nation. We can no longer afford to feed, educate and provide medical care for illegal immigrants and all the children they end up having that then beome citizens automatically. "

comment wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:15 AM:

" You people love to complain about the people here illegally, and now you want to complain about the people that are trying to change that? Are you serious? I would rather see someone currently here illegally trying to do something about becoming a legal citizen than to see them doing nothing because they don't know what steps they need to take to become a legal citizen. "

BKF wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:32 AM:

" This is seriously getting ridiculous. Where are the ramifications for breaking the law by entering this country illegally? Oops, I guess there are none. "

opiniagirl wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:46 AM:

" Next time invite ICE! "

PastNapan wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:05 AM:

" To Comment: Are you serious???? Here's a novel idea. Don't sneak into the country and then whine about how hard it is to come legally. Do it the right way and wait your turn like everyone else. We can't let in the entire world. As far as I'm concerned once you've broken our immigration laws you should be banned from ever becoming a citizen. You have already shown you have ZERO regard for the laws of this country. There are many people waiting to become legal citizens. How dare the "undocumented" think they can come in whenever they want and then say "I'm here you must make me legal" "

kracker wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:07 AM:

" Comment, What part of here ILLEGALLY dont you understand? We will continue to complain until something is done to stop the invasion.

NO GREEN CARD
NO RIGHTS!!!!! "

notpc wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:30 AM:

" tocomment: If they are illegal send them all back to their country of origin. Give them the proper paperwork to apply for legal immigration. Why do we have to let them disrespect our laws? No other country allows this rediculous drain on ther resources. It is time to take care of America ! "

Napasnapper wrote on Sep 29, 2008 11:37 AM:

" I have nothing ,but respect for the Catholic Church,but they have been one of the biggest backers and abeters of illegal aliens for many years. They were responsible for halting the copy proof green cards that were introduced several years ago by the INS. Aided by wineries ,Mike Thomson, and now misguided lawyers,it's no wonder Napa is over run with Illegal Aliens. "

John Richards wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:26 PM:

" Comment, you are basically advocating amnesty for those who came here illegally. All that will do is encourage more to come here illegally.
The right thing for illegals to do is go back where you came from and get your name on the list of those trying to immigrate legally. Don't jump the line of those waiting their turn to come here legally. "

oohnoo wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:27 PM:

" Here is a thought: What did it mean to be here legally back in the 1800's when many European immigrants came here to start a new life not knowing what to expect,l leaving family and friend alike behind. There was process in place when they came and they were weeded out like sheep being herded into lines and those that were sick and unwell were not allowed in. . All ethnics groups alike had to literally start from scratch and rebuild while learning a new language and adapting to new laws they were not accustomed to. Brutality, harsh punishments stood as a reminder for those who came stuggling to gain their citizenship.

There were no handouts, no one gave them rental subsideds either. Prior to the Great Depression America was built on the backbone that everyone compiled to one voice in one language the English language. Many ethnic groups have suffered. There was not equality across the board.

Todays crisis of illegal immigration is outstounding because of the ramifications illegal immigration has brought forth. To become a US citizen is not a right but a priviledge. It is an honor entrusted with a history and legacy we as US citizens with family histories dating back five generations who understand the sweat and toil of our own forefathers. To make a statement against illegal immigrants is not a intent of slander but rather a persistant cry that watches our history being slowing melded into nothing. It
isn't okay to be hungry, but that does not give anyone the inherent to illegally be here. That person's country owes them, not us ideally. Many US citizens are suffering, not just the minority. "

comment wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:31 PM:

" Maybe those of you that have a problem with this should make a stop at the police station today. Admit to everything you ever did illegal and pay the necessary fines and/or jail time associated with those crimes, right? That's the same way you want these people to be treated. Go put your money where your mouth is.

I'm not praising illegal immigration, nor am I promoting it. But these people do deserve some credit for doing the right thing. Back when Ellis Island was open (at taxpayers expense might I add) immigrants were were asked 29 questions including name, occupation, and the amount of money they carried with them. The immigrants who were approved spent from three to five hours at Ellis Island. It was much easier to come here legally back in our grandparents and great-grandparents time. I have no doubt more people would make the effort to come here legally if it were as easy now as it was then. "

winghunter wrote on Sep 29, 2008 1:05 PM:

" Comment... Why not let them move in with you? Fill your neighborhood and lower your property values and value of life? It is time to put your money where your mouth is! I am fairly sure if I was to stop by the PD and let them know about me doing 51 in a 45 MPH zone they would look at me like I was nuts, they may be more interested if the crime was more serious like welfare fraud, over population (fire hazard) of a single family dwelling or entering this Country illegally. BTW.. you should invest in a globe and a history book, it took a little more than 3-4 hours for the European immigrants to enter this Country. "

comment wrote on Sep 29, 2008 2:09 PM:

" See, winghunter, now you're suggesting that every illegal immigrant is guilty of welfare fraud or over population of a single family dwelling.

I never suggested it took European immigrants 3-4 to come to the United States. I said they spent 3-5 hours at Ellis Island after they were approved.

I already live in an area of town with a large hispanic population. I don't mind. If they want to move in and help me pay the bills I would be happy to let them. "

amazed wrote on Sep 29, 2008 2:11 PM:

" I have some immigration advice: GO HOME. Quit draining free services (well, free to YOU). "

notpc wrote on Sep 29, 2008 2:11 PM:

" to comment: You just don't get it. The immigration laws have changed since Ellis Island days. I can't go 65 mph in a 55mph zone if the speed limit has been changed. You argument still ignores the simple word ILLEGAL ! Maybe you don't pay taxes but I am tired of the burden illegal immigration is placing on our society. "

comment wrote on Sep 29, 2008 4:24 PM:

" I never said I support illegal immigration. The whole argument started because people here were complaining about these illegal immigrants in the story who were trying to become legal citizens. These are the same people who constantly complain about the illegal immigrants. Some of them also like to complain about any hispanic related event. The people who attended this meeting would have been people who are currently here illegally but really want to become legal citizens. Sure, maybe they shouldn't have come here in the first place, but now we're going to be upset because they are trying to become legal citizens? Sounds hypocritical to me. They deserve credit for taking the steps needed to become citizens of this country. It's more than others do. "

winemd wrote on Sep 29, 2008 4:49 PM:

" Legal Aid does some good things for seniors and low-income people. I also have no problem with them helping legal immigrants with immigration (such as naturalization) and other issues. But one of the reasons that we have so many illegal immigrants (of various nationalities) is that it is so easy to do things illegally and then "make it right." Which makes it even harder for those who are doing the right thing to get in legally. If they want to help immigrants get in the USA, then perhaps they should help those who are doing it right, not those who deliberately did it wrong. There is no question in my mind that immigrants are a plus for our country overall, but there are limits to our resources, and our immigration policies must take that into account. Maybe if it was harder to do things illegally, then we could make it easier for those who wish to come here to do so. "

winghunter wrote on Sep 29, 2008 5:02 PM:

" Comment wrote ---"They deserve credit for taking the steps needed to become citizens of this country."
No they don't!! They are doing nothing more than taking one more freebie from the system. I would have more respect for them if they went home and started the paperwork to return legally.
Less than an hour ago I wrote my check to Kaiser for next months health care for my family of 4, $1,356 was the amount. I am driving to Vallejo to treat my family while "others" go to the Queen for free, I would love to go to the Queen but can't justify the additional 300 per month. When everyone is on the same page I will take your advice and give credit where credit is due, until then... no way jose. "

comment wrote on Sep 29, 2008 6:18 PM:

" winghunter wrote ---"I would have more respect for them if they went home and started the paperwork to return legally."

Well you know that wouldn't happen. So what do you prefer? They continue living here illegally, or they take the steps to becoming legal citizens while living here? "

winghunter wrote on Sep 29, 2008 6:44 PM:

" Comment wrote--- "Well you know that wouldn't happen. So what do you prefer? They continue living here illegally, or they take the steps to becoming legal citizens while living here? "
It will not happen as long as defeatist like you continue to bury their heads in the sand and surrender, I am nothing like you and am willing to speak out in hopes of regaining this once great town. You choose not to believe it or accept it but the fact remains they are a drain on our limited resources, as they use the freebies people like me are forced to pay more and I am sick of it. I wish I could live in your utopian world but the real world continues to slap me back to reality. "

cellsitegod wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:14 PM:

" comment wrote on Sep 29, 2008 6:18 PM:
Well you know that wouldn't happen. So what do you prefer? They continue living here illegally, or they take the steps to becoming legal citizens while living here? "

I would prefer they go back to where they came from and never given the opportunity to return since they already broke our laws!
But, since we are such a forgiving country they can apply to do it the legal way.
It burns me up after the cost, time and frustration I went through with doing things legally.
And these people who are too lazy to reform their own country can just sneak in here and drain our system!
No Green Card, No Rights! "

kracker wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:15 PM:

" Comment, you are getting smoked in this debate!

NO GREEN CARD
NO RIGHTS!!!! "

notpc wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:31 PM:

" you still don't get it COMMENT- speaking of hypocritical , you now espouse that since they are already here ILLEGALLY they should now be able to take steps to become legal. Well I guess you would feel that if you robbed a bank and spent all the money before being caught as long as you say your sorry and promise not to do it again its ok huh? In this case the money I am referring to are my hard earned taxes. "

cellsitegod wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:31 PM:

" BTW Comment,
your reply about Ellis Island:
My mother and grandmotherwere one of the last few to come through Ellis Island before they closed it.
Try 3-4 WEEKS before they were approved. Not 3-4 hours.
Back then:
You had to learn english
( Hmm, no resources were spent on translations or translators)
You had to become a citizen
(SS number required to pay taxes)
Had to have a job if you were an adult.
( no welfare, medicare, WIC)

My grandmother came to this country without speaking a word of English and was the sole supporter of my mother.
Not once did she get a free handout from her newly adopted country.
She learned the language, got a new education (she was a doctor in her country) all the while supporting my mother.
Finally she retired from the state as a director in Sacramento.
I have no sympathy for these lazy people who sneak in and disrespect the hardworking LEGAL immigrants by living off a system that was created by and for hard working citizens! "

cellsitegod wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:05 PM:

" I would prefer these people go back to where they came from and never get a chance to come here again since they already broke our laws.
But, being the forgiving country we are; Then they can apply legally and help contribute instead of using up our resources.
And just because they are not collecting welfare or the usual programs don't think they are not using resources.
Who do you think pays for translators, bi-lingual govt publications, border patrols and yes, legal aid. "

AO1982 wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:37 PM:

" i would much rather have my tax dollars help people than to bailout banks who were careless. All of your comments arent going to change anything. Instead of typing your thoughts, ideas, and opinions why dont you get out and make a difference? Everyone in these blogs is so full of opinions, but it doesnt get further than a computer screen. WE NEED A REVOLUTION!!! "

cellsitegod wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:42 PM:

" Well said Oohnoo!
This country was built by hard working LEGAL immigrants who were given the chance to become anything they wanted. They worked hard and helped make their newly adopted country the best place in the world to live.
Have you seen the numbers on our state budget?
1 billion dollars of our whole 17 billion dollar state budget goes to LA county alone dealing with illegals in some way or another.
My wife is from Europe. It was a costly, long and frustrating process to get her visa.
But We did it the LEGAL way.
She has a job, pays taxes and took classes to increase her ability to speak english.
It just burns me up to watch these illegals sneak in here and use up they resources my wife and I pay taxes for!
They get better healthcare than those of us that do pay taxes and are citizens. "

winghunter wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:47 PM:

" Well AO1982, The Government bailing out a bank is completely apples an oranges, albeit both are stealing money. I am very involved in this community, mostly with the youth. How about you?? I guess by your standards and opinion that makes my voice ore important. "

comment wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:36 PM:

" cellsitegod wrote--- "I would prefer they go back to where they came from and never given the opportunity to return since they already broke our laws!
But, since we are such a forgiving country they can apply to do it the legal way."

EXACTLY! Now we're breaking down barriers! They are now doing it the legal way. Even though they did come here illegally, they're taking the steps to become legal citizens.

notpc wrote---"you still don't get it COMMENT- speaking of hypocritical , you now espouse that since they are already here ILLEGALLY they should now be able to take steps to become legal."

They are being offered the services of attorneys for free. Any of them would be foolish not to accept this offer.

I don't know what all of you expect to happen. No one here illegally is going to turn around and go back to their home country to suddenly go through the immigration process the right way. I wouldn't expect any of you to do the same if you were in that same situation. I'm glad to see these people are making the effort to become legal citizens. I wish everyone here illegally would make the same effort these hundred people who attended this meeting are. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Sep 30, 2008 12:06 AM:

" AO1982, why don't we have a revolution? What type do you propose? I'm not armed, are you? Certain segments of our society are armed and they could end out with the upper hand.

That's all we need. We are accumulating such a large population of poor from bordering countries. Combine that with the financial crisis of our own government; what happens if we can no longer afford to share our resources? What if we can't even take care of ourselves? Think a revolution cannot get a start here?

The ingredients are: an enabled, often armed and dependent population; high levels of population for the amount of available resources, a sense of chaos in a crowded environment, economic instability, high food prices due to high energy costs. What else could tip the scales?

A real revolution could seriously affect your spouse, siblings, parents, and most of all, your children (if you have them). Revolutions are not funny nor should they be encouraged, even jokingly. "

leavintown wrote on Sep 30, 2008 4:44 PM:

" This is just ridiculous. What else are we going to give them for free. Why don't we get all the illegal on a program where they can get free gas so the can drive back to their country and visit their families more often. Don't worry, we the Americans will pay for it. Let's also give the illegals free postage and shipping so they can send all of their illegally earned money back to their own country tax free. And you wonder why they say this is such a wonderful country to live in. Everything is FREE!!!! "

Raven wrote on Oct 4, 2008 1:05 AM:

" let's face the facts....there is no way that this country will ever, ever deport an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants....the money and the manpower are simply not there, not to mention the economic damage it would do to our economy.....so face the facts that they are here to stay...then the question becomes what do we do next...? "

steph wrote on Oct 4, 2008 11:07 AM:

" Raven--

Aren't you one who wants universal healthcare? Do you really believe Americans should subsidize the healthcare of all Mexicans who do NOT pay into the system?

With unchecked illegal immigration, that's essentially what you're asking the American public to finance. We can NOT do this. We cannot afford it. Countries that don't have illegal immigration problems are struggling with the high coss of healthcare; how can we finance our own citizens' healthcare along with that of another country, when they are not paying anything for it?

Before you counter with the argument that all illegal immigrants are paying high social security taxes that they will not ever see, may I remind you that American citizens are, too, currently, AND, not all illegal immigrants work for a living, and not all illegal immigrants have documented incomes (a real shocker! undocumented workers making undocumented incomes!)

If America would enforce the laws currently on the books, and stop financing poverty, we would not be looking at deportation; people would migrate themselves right back to Mexico. "

Raven wrote on Oct 5, 2008 10:29 AM:

" steph, illegal immigrants only account for a minute part, less than 2 billion, of the money spent on health care in the US...the vast majority of those without health insurance are legal residents according to the GAO....

the other point is how do you know all the illegal immigrants are Mexican?..bit of an assumption on your part isn't it? "

vocal-de-local wrote on Oct 5, 2008 12:50 PM:

" Raven, I don't believe that for a minute. Costs are much higher than you suggest. Unpaid visits to an emergency room where someone falsifies their information is not accounted for in statistics because you cannot prove anything about this particular population. The costs are way higher than you might guess. We cannot even begin to talk Universal Healthcare without addressing this issue. Times are going to get tough here as well. 2 billion is 2 billion, money I would rather not give away so that the corporate agricultural world can make higher profits at the expense of a diminishing middle class. "

wingmaster wrote on Oct 5, 2008 2:33 PM:

" Once again we see illegal aliens being supported by those whose jobs are not being undercut. if the jobs that the illegal's were affecting were attorneys, I'll bet they wouldn't be so ready to support these foriegn nationals. the wine industry around napa should be ashamed of thier involvment with illegal lliens, I hope some day it catches up with the business's that employ illegals. "

Raven wrote on Oct 5, 2008 4:15 PM:

" yep...backed up by a RAND institute study in 2007...1.2 billion out of over 2 trillion spent in total health care costs "

steph wrote on Oct 5, 2008 5:07 PM:

" Raven--
Never said all illegals were Mexican. Never even suggested it.
However, more Mexicans than any other nationality have access to our borders, and this is the reality our country faces.

We cannot afford to "insure" Mexican nationals. I'm not sure we can afford to insure Americans. We can't talk about insuring Americans with the current immigration patterns we see in this country right now.

Let's try to remain intellectually honest, now. "

steph wrote on Oct 5, 2008 6:22 PM:

" The RAND study was flawed. It left out the amount of money spent on the children of illegal immigrants. It also relied on self-reporting of immigration status and whether or not each interviewed person had insurance, and how much healthcare they used. Self-reporting and estimating leads to one big-time flawed study.
Regardless, 1.2 Billion dollars is no chump change, particularly in that it is not evenly geographically distributed around the US. Many communities have higher economic burdens, and have more hospital closures, and higher disease burdens and poverty rates as a result of illegal immigration than do other areas. And remember, Raven, you get more of what you fund, and we have an epidemic of entitlement-minded US-born poor demanding services, courtesy of US taxpayers. We cannot afford it.
California is going broke because we have too many people demanding services they do not help to fund. We cannot afford it. "

Raven wrote on Oct 6, 2008 4:51 AM:

" "Do you really believe Americans should subsidize the healthcare of all Mexicans who do NOT pay into the system?"
so you didnt make this statement? You meant all those Canadian illegal immigrants then?

no matter how you slice, legal residents without insurance are a much greater burden than the illegal immigrants when it comes to hospitals...

and yeah, 1.2 billion out of 2 trillion is chump change "

steph wrote on Oct 6, 2008 3:00 PM:

" It's not 1.2 billion. "

steph wrote on Oct 6, 2008 3:00 PM:

" 1.2 BILLION could benefit schools. "

Raven wrote on Oct 6, 2008 5:24 PM:

" then what is the figure steph?.....just saying it aint doesn't make it so....give me a figure and some sources to back it up... "

steph wrote on Oct 6, 2008 5:57 PM:

" We won't know the figure until an appropriate study is conducted.

We can, however, look at outcomes, like a state that is going broke, and hospital closures, for example, as well as the re-emergence of old diseases like TB. "

Raven wrote on Oct 6, 2008 7:07 PM:

" how many studies do you want...the ones already done all say the same thing, GAO, Rand, Kaiser, etc...the biggest impact upon health costs is not illegal immigrants but non insured legal residents....they also show that illegal immigrants are the least likely to use emergency rooms or any other service where they might be forced to interact with even quasi-governmental agencies....you can't shop for a study that says what you wish it would say... "

steph wrote on Oct 6, 2008 8:50 PM:

" Ok, Raven.

So, what percentage of babies born to illegal residents are born uninsured (I get to pay for their high-risk births)?

How many legal citizens do these illegal residents produce before we say, "Enough."

You want to play a semantics game, I don't. I don't like all the entitlements, no matter how long the recipients or their parents have been in the country.

I'll say it again: WE can't afford it. "

Raven wrote on Oct 6, 2008 11:24 PM:

" and what do you propose top do about it?.....as I said.....the rhetoric about tossing the 12 million est illegals out of the country is simply rhetoric...it aint going to happen ... your proposal is? "

Paddy wrote on Oct 7, 2008 8:05 AM:

" Steph - You hit the nail on the head. Raven's arguement falls apart because as soon as an illegal immigrant's newborn arrives that baby is considered legal.

I've seen numbers that take into consideration those abusing the system who were born of illegal parents and the numbers are staggering and will grow exponentially as long as these lawyers, working 'pro bono', continue to destroy the middle class and provide avenues of dirt cheap labor to the wealthy at the expense of the United States. "

cellsitegod wrote on Oct 7, 2008 8:20 AM:

" Hey Raven,
You seem to love quoting the "Studies".
Why don't you do your own "Study" Spend some time at construction sites and get an illegal to talk to you and see what they say? (you won't have a problem finding one)
Interview the people intaking patients at QVH and ask what they actually see.
Go to Clinic Ole and do a "study" on the people using the services funded by our taxes, see the ratio of green cards.
Sit outside the WIC office and ask the people going in to see their green card and do a ratio of the ones that will show you and the ones that don't.
Drive around the neighborhoods and go to the houses that have 10+ people living in them and get a count of the occupants that are legal.
The studies you quote are flawed. Illegals are not going to participate in a study. They don't want the exposure. "

funnyyou wrote on Oct 7, 2008 8:45 AM:

" kracker, Que! No comprendo! "

Raven wrote on Oct 7, 2008 1:06 PM:

" so, show me some studies that contradict them....sound, scientific based studies....give us some facts to work with not unprovable anecdotes...find some study somehwere that shows how many illegal aliens are using WIC....how many are using Clinic Ole.... anything anywhere that says the 10 people you think are living in an apartment are illegal...I am waiting for that and no one seems to be able to come with anything....

there is no way you can stand out side any office anywhere and tell their residence status just by listening or looking at a person ... unless you are making an assumption that all people who have a certain shade of skin coloring or speak a certain language are illegal.

paddy, you toss out seeing numbers...where..from who...what are the sources? "

vocal-de-local wrote on Oct 8, 2008 1:16 AM:

" Raven, I believe in boundaries when it comes to all sorts of things in life. Boundaries help keep dishonest people honest. Boundaries allow us to get angry when someone cuts in line. We define "boundary" when we say "no" to a toddler who just pulled the cat's tail. Nature delineates boundaries regularly and it's expressed as consequences.

We need immigration boundaries now more than ever before because energy is finite (people who do not believe this are delusional). Without energy we cannot transport food or supplies at a reasonable cost. People get angry when they cannot afford to feed themselves or their families. Even if we could fix our economic problems today, we are still faced with energy problems which are not going to ever again go away. They are here to stay and yet we are doing absolutely nothing to respond to it like reducing our population levels or defining immigration boundaries. Someone's going to suffer and it might be you, your children, or your grandchildren. It's wiser to prevent suffering from happening in the first place. As any psychologist would tell you, boundaries are healthy. "

Paddy wrote on Oct 8, 2008 9:39 AM:

" Raven - unfortunately, all the facts in the world won't convince you that cheating immigration laws cause major social, political and financial stresses in the US today. You've made up your mind. "

cellsitegod wrote on Oct 8, 2008 11:09 AM:

" You cannot show/perform a legitimate study contradicting a flawed study. Do you think the studies you quote were done any different than the way you describe and no way of getting accurate information?
There is no way the studies you quote are accurate also. What about the people ( illegal’s) they try to interview that will give no info? Do they just put them in the column they think appropriate? What about the children born to illegal’s that are "automatic citizens" Do you count the child but not the parents because they are illegal?
Do you see my point?
You cannot accurately do a study on an "underground population" because they don't want to be studied.
But, they do know how to live off a system illegally, just open your ears and eyes and look around. "

kracker wrote on Oct 8, 2008 1:11 PM:

" Funnyou, press 1 for English "

Raven wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:09 PM:

" cellsite, and anyone, if you can show me studies with the opposite findings then by all means....tell me where they were done...I want to have a discussion on facts, not anecdotes....and so far that is all we have...

for all of you who have said you know that so many of the people who go to this place or are at that place and are illegal...what have you as good citizens done....have you called the ICE people and reported your finding? If not, are you contributing to the problem? "

winghunter wrote on Oct 8, 2008 7:10 PM:

" Raven... I have not called ICE but I have called the NPD, they told me they feel for me but there is nothing they can do. You want facts??? Swing by and we can cruise the neighborhood, facts are in front of your face. I know the facts you care about are written on paper by someone you don't know, I really don't care about those kind of "spin" facts. I guess we could go around asking if they are illegal, not real sure the answers would be correct but I am sure they would fit your agenda. "

Raven wrote on Oct 9, 2008 9:47 AM:

" they dont have jurisdiction...ICE does....winghunter you have no idea what my agenda is or isn't but number one is using the best available facts to even have the discussion...

and cruising by anywhere won't prove anything because you are making assumptions based on one of twop thing....either what the person economic status appears to be ...or by their ethnic group, their race... "

winghunter wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:27 AM:

" Raven,
You are correct they are assumptions because as has been pointed out to you a number of times, an underground population will not talk about their status. That point alone defeats your fact finding mission. I do know from a few years on this earth that if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then 99% of the time it is a duck!! You like to find that 1% and then paint with a wide brush from there, I choose not to do that. "

mypoint wrote on Oct 9, 2008 11:57 AM:

" So Raven, I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say our country doesn't have a serious problem with illegal immigration. We do have a serious problem but nobody can give specifics because as many have said, there is no way to get accurate information. You through out a number, which is incorrect, so maybe you should get your facts straight before spewing off inaccurate numbers. "

Raven wrote on Oct 9, 2008 1:02 PM:

" no, I am trying to say that we don't have the facts to know just how big the problem is....and until we have the facts, we cant take any effective measures....all we get are unproven anecdotes and racial/ethnic steretyping....and how do you know the number is incorrect if we don't have the facts...the RAND and GAO studies are the closest thing we have to facts on the numbers....I have asked for others but no one has come forth...

and yes there are ways to get the information if we want to and want to spend the money on it.....take a look at HIV/AIDS...no one wanted to talk about that but we have made the efforts to get the data and have used that data to plan our assault against the disease "

cellsitegod wrote on Oct 10, 2008 6:58 AM:

" Lets compare "apples to apples"
HIV/AIDS can be studied because its not illegal to have it and you won’t be in danger of being deported if you have it.
Here's a fact from the "population reference bureau:
The total fertility rate (TFR) or average number of children per woman given current birth rates-- was 2.1 children per woman in 2005. Among racial and ethnic groups, the TFR for highest for Hispanics at 2.9 children per woman, compared with 1.8 for non-Hispanic whites, 2.0 for non-Hispanic blacks, 1.9 for Asian and Pacific Islanders, and 1.7 for American Indians and Alaska Natives.
Among Hispanics, the rates are highest for Mexicans and Central Americans—who are our fastest growing Hispanic groups.
US census bureau:
Hispanic Population in US 1970-2050
1970
9.6 million....4.7 percent total US population
2050
102.6 million....24.4 percent total US population
That’s a over 500 % increase in 80 years! "

cellsitegod wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:02 AM:

" Here's some more:
Center for immigration studies:
“The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 33 percent, compared to 19 percent for native households”

“34 percent of immigrants lack health insurance, compared to 13 percent of natives. Immigrants and their U.S.-born children account for 71 percent of the increase in the uninsured since 1989.”

“Overall, nearly one in three immigrants is an illegal alien. Half of Mexican and Central American immigrants and one-third of South American immigrants are illegal.”

Maybe somebody needs to learn to search the internet better?
I found this info in a matter of 10min! "

winghunter wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:31 AM:

" Raven,
I am having trouble following your logic and to be honest what your complete stand on the issue of illegal immigration is. You continue to ask for facts even when it is clear and has been pointed out by many that such facts are impossible to retrieve. Then you state that nothing can be done until all these impossible to retrieve facts are in place. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that no matter what is said or quoted you will dismiss as untrue or incomplete.
To recap your feelings and belief. You feel nothing at all should be done to curb the influx of illegal immigrants until intangible evidence is gathered? If anything is done to stop the illegal flow then it should be viewed as stereotyping and racist? Is that correct or am I off base with my observations?

FYI... Not sure how HIV/AIDS has anything to do with the problem of immigration, with the exception that both can be viewed as a very serious problem not only in this Country but more prevalent in our geographic area. If you told everyone here illegally they would die within a year from a sexually transmitted affliction if they did not participate in a fact finding survey, I would assume the participants would increase 10 fold. "

Raven wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:27 PM:

" winghunter, what I have said time and time again is that you cannot formulate a policy or plan without the best available facts...

the center for immigration studies is known as an anti immigration policy group...and its figures have never been matched by any peer reviewed study..the health statistics dont even come close to the studies down by the GAO, Rand and kaiser...know of their research is ever subjected to a peer review...

the HIV/AIDS is an example of how you can do studies about subjects people do not want to talk about, such as STDs....and the methodology can be used in other 'taboo' subjects..

and the fertility rate figures do not distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants... "

cellsitegod wrote on Oct 10, 2008 4:39 PM:

" You asked for studies and you dismiss them as false.
Yet when your studies are questioned to be incomplete, you refuse to admit that they could be flawed.
I guess your "Rose colored glasses" shade out around you what everyone else sees. "

Raven wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:36 PM:

" never said that, cell site...I said they hadnt been peer reviewed, unlike the studies I cited.....and were from sources known to be biased... "

cellsitegod wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:32 AM:

" Raven,
I agree with your previous quote:
" let's face the facts....there is no way that this country will ever, ever deport an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants"
We are the strongest country in world and our political system allows us to do anything by popular vote.
We can deport the 12 million illegals and tighten the border to prevent this.
However, people are convinced that we need them as a labor force....Bull!
We don't need them as blue collar workers in the construction trade. We don't need them in the food service trade.
When I was in my teens and 20s there were plenty of citizens willing to do those jobs.
Americans need to stop complaining under their breath and demand Washington do something about it.
Your not a racist if your trying to protect your country and way of life from an invasion.
And yes, it is an invasion.
NO GREEN CARD, NO RIGHTS! "

Raven wrote on Oct 11, 2008 1:48 PM:

" cellsite...you a re living in a dream world ...it aint gonna happen...

and if we didnt need them fill slots in our economy here there wouldnt be work for them....but they have no trouble finding employment...so maybe the attention should be focused on those who employ them....instead of those taking the job offer..

the fact is that many of the jobs filled by immigrants are not being taken away from any American because the jobs go unfilled....just ask a teenager to make their first work experience busing tables....unless it is in one of Napa's best restaurants, they will laff in yiour face... "

mypoint wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:00 PM:

" Raven, for someone that is so big on facts, you sure make a lot of assumptions. How do you know where teenagers work and don't work. I see plenty of kids working fast food, target, etc.
...and although immigration is nothing new, we have never experienced such an influx in such a short amount of time. They definietly weren't coming over in herds 20 years ago, but we seemed to get by just fine without them. I'm sick of people saying that they do the jobs Americans won't do. That is such a lame excuse, not to mention completely incorrect. Last time I checked, Americans do everything from Janitors to surgeons and so on. "

winghunter wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:17 PM:

" Raven... You are wrong an multiple levels here, if I was a smart azz I would ask for a peer reviewed study to back your claims but I will refrain. They are doing jobs that AMERICANS did up till about 10 years ago. The reason there are spots to fill is because they have lowered the pay of the job to level that is not acceptable. In the construction field it is half of what a carpenter made. There are kids who would fill restaurant jobs if they were available, they just would rather hire someone who will work long hours for minimal pay and never ask for overtime.
I don't need studies or reports to back this up because I have first hand experience. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Oct 12, 2008 10:44 AM:

" Raven, you stated "and if we didnt need them fill slots in our economy here there wouldnt be work for them."

I'm going to give you an example of what's going on. My brother is a building contractor. His COSTS to hire a helper add up to $45 an hour due to workmen's comp etc. He refuses to hire illegals and stands by his principles. The jobs he takes are now small jobs such as remodels where he basically utilizes himself and possibly one other guy. Many of the larger job contractors are hiring illegals.

If you follow the pattern you will see why this is a problem for the social fabric of our country: Illegal arrives for vineyard work. He works there awhile but is soon lured elsewhere, soon finding under the table construction work. He's paid $15 an hour cash so that there isn't a money trail. None is applied toward taxes (which contribute toward the social services this person may be using). None is applied toward workmen's comp. My honest brother is paying wages between $25 and $30 an hour plus covering workmen's comp which is high due to the risks. In this industry it's difficult competing with the illegal wages. Construction jobs are being replaced with illegals and the well compensated workers who received workmen's comp are being displaced and can't find work. This is a way bigger problem than you may realize.

What happens next is that an illegal will get injured on the job. He arrives at the hospital and lies about the nature of the injury. He doesn't have workmen's comp. Costs are subsidized by taxpayers. Do you think that's ok? So please don't say this is about people not wanting to fill slots. It's about money. "

Raven wrote on Oct 12, 2008 4:27 PM:

" being the father of a couple teenagers, I think I may have a slight insight to the way some of them feel....

the three I cite were all peer-reviewed winghunter...

as for the jobs Americans won't do....looks at the unfilled positions available...and take a look at those who are bussing your tables, mowning and trimming and watering you lawns....see a pattern there? "

cellsitegod wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:11 AM:

" Raven,
Do YOU see the "pattern"?
As Vocal-De-Local, Winghunter and myself have stated:
These illegals are willing to take these jobs at a lower rate with no OT and for cash because they've learned to take advantage of the free programs we have.
I wasn't too proud or too spoiled to work at Mc Donalds and bus tables when I was a teenager, everybody did.
Ask your teenagers if they will do those jobs. And when they refuse, ask why.
I throughly enjoyed being a carpenter until illlegals came in and undercut the wages to where I couldn't support myself, let alone a family.
You seem to refuse to believe that your "peer group" studies could be flawed. Even though several of us have given you plausible reasons they can be flawed.
Studies are great when we need to create another liberal aid program.
But, we are all here giving examples of what our eyes and ears see and hear first hand.
And thats what affects John Q CITIZEN in everyday life. "

kracker wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:24 AM:

" Raven, you are blinded by Liberal bliss! Americans will do these jobs, it will just cost the employer more. Illegals are whiping out the middle class in this country. Have a look around without your blinders for a minute. I work in construction and refuse to hire illegals as well. Sure my profit margins would be greater with these low paid parasites, but so would the labor rates in time. That time has come due to greed. A carpenter used be a trade that was sought after by middle class America, now a guy can't raise a family on these wages because illegals have killed the labor rate.
NO GREEN CARD
NO RIGHTS!!!! "

Raven wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:27 PM:

" I nam still waiting for anyone to rpesent opposing peer reviewed studies...and despite all your blather about how flawed my studies may be...no one has done so....and you cannot address the problem with even a facade of facts....
so....until, then all you have is anecdotes and assumptions.....not the stuff to form any policy that you expect to work....

so again....give me a peer-reviewed study that challenges the figures the feds are usingt... "

kracker wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:47 PM:

" Do you really need a study? Have a drive around town and collect your own data. Try starting at Home Depot, there are all kinds of folks willing to participate around there. Ask them 2 questions.
1.How much an hour (to get there attention)
2.Proof of citizenship (No Comprende)
Oh ya press 1 for english!!!!

NO GREEN CARD
NO RIGHTS!!!! "

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