" After the first punch is thrown. Always take the stance of defending yourself. Never be the aggressor "

" I don't think "punishing" them on your own is the right way to get them to understand the consequences of their actions. Yes, it's scary to go to teachers and tell them what happened when you're in middle school or high school, but that's the most effective way of "fighting back." My mother taught me that it is NEVER okay to physically harm another person, no matter what the situation, unless we were in grave danger or had to fight back--punching someone or hurting someone because they hurt you isn't fighting back or defending yourself. It’s revenge. A much more effective and intelligent way of getting a person back is to use words to make it obvious that they're in the wrong. Physically harming another person is immature. "

" Although my parents also taught me not to fight back, at least physically, there has always been a part of me that thinks it's okay. As long as you do it in the moment, and direct it at the person who attacked. That said, what's the wisdom in it? They hit, you hit back, they hit harder, they're better at it, etc. etc. Then they tell their friends, who then have it in for you, and you tell your friends, who join you against their friends, and voila! A gang is born (actually two gangs). And what is accomplished? The resentments just build, and things get worse, and pretty much it's Recess War III. So the question, really, is -- are there any better ways to resolve conflict? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Usually, if it's a bully, conduct-disordered, on-the-way-to-sociopath person, it's pretty tricky to get them to stop. But it's also pretty hard to prevail by hitting back, because they're often bigger, tougher, meaner, etc. etc. So then what do you do? Call in your friends? Gang, again. Then there's the issue of weapons.
My point is, where does it stop. When I was in Jr. High, I secretly wished someone would pick a fight with me so I could beat the cr** out of them. Just free-floating anger, probably displaced from anger at my older sister who was genuinely emotionally mean to me. Glad they never picked a fight with me. And the one bully who used to bother everyone took me & my boyfriend in as refugees when kids were chasing/teasing us.
Guess when it comes down to it, I prefer hitting back with words. "

" Oh, I just want to add -- the people who usually become killers and wife-beaters (like the sociopaths I mentioned) usually, though not always, become sociopaths because they were seriously mistreated when they were young -- abused or harshly and unfairly punished. Some people also lose the ability to have empathy and treat others well because their parents were too permissive & let them get away with murder, so to speak. There is an in-between. Children whose parents have firm limits and consistent but non-abusive (physically or emotionally) punishment, along with other important parenting qualities and behaviors, usually learn empathy themselves, & feel genuinely better about themselves, & are better able to regulate their emotions and behaviors in ways that are "socially acceptable".
Well, you asked. "

" I'm with Angelina on this. You can't let yourself be a target. People tend to leave you alone when they know you will fight back. "

" If its a matter of self defense I will do my best to rip the attackers throat out and use ANY means necessary to defend myself or family.

.after the attacker is no longer a threat well... guess I won't hit, kick,Punch, gouge, bite, knee, headbutt, cut, bodyslam, or even shoot.

Until then, all bets are off. "

" I have to say I agree with Angelina, freeport56 and surprisingly with teacher .
I'm very glad that Angelina and her sister actually used self defense.
Most kids don't want to miss recess, but if missing recess is the consequence,im in for it!!! "

" I've been watching my 7th graders today and I've noticed that there are "professional victims" and kids who never get picked on, even though they never have to fight (my younger son - now a grownup, was in this group).

Profesional victims almost never stick up for themselves and seem to have few friends. I think that this is a big reason kids form cliques, safety in numbers. Bullying is a big problem in Middle School. I think it's a feature of the age group, not a part of our coulture. I've seen the very same thing over seas.

It's not a coincidence that gang activity starts in middle school and that gangs start to recruit there. It's not the bullies that become gang members, it's the kids who seek protection. I think the best gang prevention is raising kids who have good self esteem.

Pharper is also correct when she points out that sticking up for yourself with words is also useful. Not all bullying is physical. However,there are also some kids that are not deterred by the usual methods. You either have to avoid them or be ready to square off. Sometimes that works, sometimes you get beat.

One concerning thing for me is the level of violence that kids of middle school age are capable of. You generally don't see the kinds of fights at high school that I've seen in middle school. They tend to take on the proportion of vendettas. Familly gets involved. It get's real ugly. "

" I would commend Angelina’s mother….at the end of the day nobody will protect you better than yourself….and there are no excuses for boys bullying girls under any circumstance.

Gangs are notorious for exploiting the fear factor so no doubt some join gangs for protection and some join for the pleasure of sadistic terror…too bad the school district didn’t put as much effort into combating gangs as they do combating those who defend themselves.

Bewilderingly, back in the early 1990s Napa Unified School District implemented the Politically Correct solution to eating a knuckle sandwich for lunch….after your sandwich is delivered and tasted, the victim is suspended along with the chef who delivered the meal….whether or not you defend yourself. They still call it ‘Zero Tolerance’…then teaching, some of us referred to it as ‘zero common sense.’ It’s not the only PC policy lacking sense, but it’s the dumbest preparing students for the real world of self preservation, which isn’t an alien thought nor to be taken lightly. The districts policy treating the perpetrator as an equal to his victim, rewards the perpetrator while punishing the victim again. We still joke about it today….suspended the victim…how silly is that?

When this policy was being implemented many of the instructors advice went along the lines; if threatened, don’t wait to be beaten up or worse ….first try physically remove yourself (run Forrest run) if not possible…defend yourself which would include initiating contact (first punch)…being on the receiving end of the first punch isn‘t the preferred meal…at least not after you‘ve had a taste. "

" I find myself in agreement with CommonSense.

Now that that has sunk in...

It drives me nuts to see some poor kid who was defending him (or her) self get suspended. In their defense, my bosses don't much like it either. They have the unenviable position of being the whole "Law and Order" crew.

Years ago I worked at Hana Boy's Center in Sonoma. The old hands there told me that they used to take brawlers to the gym, put on boxing gloves and tell them to have at it. Most of the time, they tell me, nothing happened. I really wish I could do that with some of my students. "

" When my now 29 year-old son was in Silverado Middle School a kid came up behind him and shoved him down a flight of concrete steps. It could have killed him, but, Thank God, he was just banged up.

We went to the administration and they tried to shine us on. The boy also was pulling girls pants down and the administration had been glossing over that too.

The kid was becoming a bad actor, and nobody was even trying to prevent it.

I told them that if they did not prosecute the kid, we would sue the school. Reluctantly, they brought charges against the kid, my son had to testify, and the kid was put on probation and transferred out of school to where he could get more help curbing his aggression.

My kid was safe for the rest of his time there, and I hope the other kid learned that other girls and boys are not objects for his aggression.

So I recommend you have your parents enforce discipline if the school fails. Just the threat of a lawsuit will make them do their duty to keep kids safe, when a child asks for protection.

Escalating tit-for-tat episodes among kids is probably impossible to completely squelch... but finding the vice-principal RIGHT THEN is better than getting tossed out of school.

However, if you have honestly exhausted everything you can think of, if I were your parent I'd buy you an ice cream and take you out for your favorite food too!

OK, maybe first the food, and then the ice cream!

;o)

~Ruff "

" reeport56-
Definitely. My Tae Kwon Do teacher also taught me that. Never turn your back on them, they might recover adn if you're turned they might get you in the back.

pharper-
It's not "punishing" it's self defense. The kid that whacked me with the wet towel could've taken my eye out. Me twisting his wrist only hurt for a second, and was enough to let him know that next time, it would hurt more.

dellasumbrella-
Gangs don't form because of self defense, they form because there is a lack of it. Some people who were originally mean saw society's lack of fighting back and took advantage over it. If a victim only says "stop", and doesn't do anything while you steal from him, that's considered a "great way" to make money if you're a gangster. If the victim says no, it escalates into killing.

Teacher-
Thanks. I'm glad you agree. "

" Being the mother of two young girls and having gone through my "school years" myself -many years ago however-I love to tell my kids stories about my childhood years and show them that even though we are from very different generations, basic principles prevail. Learn from History...listen to your mother!

There are circumstances when "using your words" is all it's needed, and others when things are definitely getting out of hand that need "outside intervention" (Ruff and dellas' stories, different approaches, different outcomes?).

glenroy brings up a great point, that is about what are our schools REALLY doing to prepare our kids for the real world, and the relation between criminal/victim and their position in our PC society.
"Zero Tolerance" in concept is great, however if I were the one (the "victim") who protected/defended myself or that one in need and I got the same punishment than the perpetrator (the "criminal"), that would probably make me so angry and frustrated that I would seek "revenge" one way or another, holding a grudge? Not a good lesson on fairness, fear and trust in the system or authority...not good, is it? "

" Unless your life is in serious danger, what's wrong with just walking away and saying something like "If you want me to interact with you, you'll need to first grow up".

Just walk away. If usually diffuses the situation.

At times, I was a bit of a bully myself, although not physically so. I was seeking both attention and recognition for being something, even though the "something" was negative. I had a sibling who teased me mercilessly and I was probably just projecting that onto others. I was very responsive when people just walked away. It left me standing there alone, too perplexed to react.

People who fight back typically "like" to fight. It often turns into a never ending cycle of who's the better fighter. But if someone "continuously" harasses you, then yes, it's probably appropriate to set some boundaries. But first try setting the boundaries with your feet in motion. But if someone genuinely harms you, then you need to report it to the authorities. I once called the cops when my older son was being physically harassed. The bully cried when the cop arrived at his door! Now THAT was sweet revenge! "

" The correct answer is, there is no one correct answer. Each situation needs to be examined on its own facts.

Sometimes a bully has to be stopped and the only way to do that is stand your ground, even to hit back (bullies are often cowards anyway).

Sometimes it is better to turn it over to a higher authority - parents, teachers, someone who has more experience than a teen. That's not a slam on teens. Even the natural intelligence of a teen sometimes needs the filter of experience to make the right choice.

And sometimes it might be best to just beat feet. That's not cowardly. Many times brave soldiers retreat and live to fight another day. No sense at all in being foolish. However if someone is continuously harassing you, then 'feet, do your thing' won't always work.

There's a lot of valuable ideas and information above, talk them over with family and friends. You'll develop the experience set to deal with people no matter what the situation.

By the way, keep up the Tai Kwon Do. It's good for self confidence, self discipline, athleticism and probably lots of other good things. Never stop learning. "