" Congressman Wilson supported Osama Bin Laden when he was on 'our' side in the interest of fighting the old USSR.

And we all know that Osama Bin Laden turned on the USA when the Soviets left Afghanistan and collapsed.

That's called BLOWBACK.

Charlie Wilson is absolutely correct that walking away from Afghanistan was a mistake.

However, building schools, roads and infrastructure is not something that the military-industrial-congressional complex is interested in... because when BLOWBACK occurs like it did on 9-11 they get to sell the government more fancy weapons at even fancier prices.

"We. the People..." deserve better.

George Washington warned us about politicians who would entangle us in foreign alliances... and it would be good to remember his warning when we hear the jingoist war-mongering crap about Georgia... the causus belli of this election season.

~Ruff "

" Charlie Wilson makes a very good point. "If we had done the right thing in Afghanistan then — following up our military support with the necessary investments in diplomacy and development assistance — we would have better secured our own country's future, as well as peace and stability in the region." This is what we are doing NOW in Iraq. Yet in todays climate many would have us drop the ball YET AGAIN, and allow what the democratic congress allowed back then to happen ALL OVER AGAIN. We need to learn from past mistakes so we do not repeat them. He is so right, this is not a partisan issue. "As the situations in Afghanistan and Georgia suggest, our future threats are likely to come from states that cannot meet the basic needs of their people." So lets stop the policy of cutting and running when we get involved in situations. Lets be procative as Mr. Wilson suggests and make "Robust investments in health, education and economic development ..." Stable societies will prevent wars in the future. Was the cost of Iraq too much to achieve this in one country in the middle east? Many seem to think so. I think their views are very short sighted. "

" Charlie’s lived by the modest fundamental human instinct…….’woman are going to be the death of me…..but what a way to go’….. Charlie worked harder and accomplished more to protect this country while in office than any other member in his party….and we all owe a little something to Charlie for it.

Hindsight being what it is, it is too bad Bush #1 and Clinton #1 didn’t stay engaged in Afghanistan……it wouldn’t have taken much of an effort at that point to nip the bud that was to become al Qaeda….it’s sickening how easy it would have been to make them vanish never to be heard of or from again.

In spite of his ’character challenges’ Charlie did what they thought was best for this country without being overly concerned with the public opinions polls…..both the president above ignored and that’s why today his has risen to heights never imagined by any other Professional Philanderer in our nations history…. "

" This all happened on Bill Clinton's watch. And just the other night in his DNC speech he said that he was criticized for being too young and too inexperienced to be president - Well it was obviously true and the same thing is true of the current democrat nominee. "

" Sandra one big difference between Charlie Wilson's Afghanistan and today's iraq...

in Afghanistan, we gave the Afghans the tools and they did the work...and we failed to follow up after they succeeded...

in Iraq we are now repairing the damage caused by our misguided invasion and are dragging our feet when the Iraqis want us to leave. "

" And to think I got slammed for saying the same thing CW said a few months back! ( more or less) Interesting.. Kinda like Mc Cain NOW agreeing with Obama after he lied thru his teeth about the effectiveness of the surge.. "

" Raven,
Oh, so your perspective is because you think we should not have preemptively taken out Saddam (Oh, by the way I am on record, numerous times saying I was against going in), that now the Iraqi people need to suffer because Bush led us into Iraq? How can we be dragging our feet when the date Iraq has put forth is 2010. Last time I looked it was still 2008.
Your logic totally escapes me.
I think Mr. Wilson would agree that once we broke it, we certainly need to fix it, so it would not be a repeat of the Afghan outcome.

The surge has been effective Adark1, and if Bush would of done what McCain suggested in the beginning, which was:
1. Not to go into Iraq in the first place.
And
2. If he did go in, do it with full force and no pussyfooting around.
Well, we would of seen a different and more effective war.
It has been the left and uninformed opinion, and poor leadership which has caused the dragging on of this war. "

" Totally revisionist wishful thinking musikluvr "

" Sandra - Please explain where the US was 'pussyfooting around' in Iraq?

Not enough torture? Not enough people lead around with bags over their heads? Not enough kicking doors in at midnight? Not enough taking women and children captives to get to their fathers?

Just what further violations of George Washington's advice, and the Geneva convention rules on treatment of prisoners did the US military under Bush fail to do that you would recommend?

The former Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, noted pacifist and peace monger, said about photos and videos that were never released to the public in defiance of federal court order, the content was so graphic that the American people would be sickened and horrified at the things done to women and children.

So what... exactly would remove your charge that the US military was 'pussyfooting around'?

~Ruff "

" My perspective is simply that we should be doing what the Iraqi people have asked us to do which is leave and not spend one more American life there.....and frankly, I believe that as long as we have American troops there fighting a dying, there will never be a need for the Iraqis to step up to the plate and handle there own affairs....after all...they have managed to create a $76 billion dollar surplus while we are borrowing from China to fund our being there.... the sooner we are out of Iraq, unilaterally, the better and the sooner we can focus our attention where it should have remained these past few years...on Afghanistan "

" We don't know that "following up" with civilian and infrastructure support in Afghanistan would have changed things there. That's pure speculation. Bin Laden and the Taliban, were all too willing to accept our weapons and support to purge their primary foe (the Soviets) from Afghanistan. Once they left I suspect the Taliban would have turned their wrath toward us as well, the second most mistrusted foe in the Middle East. I'm sure they would have loved our roads, schools and hospitals but ultimately "manned" and run by them. Then there was still the problem of the opium poppy growers; I doubt that would have changed.

Many like to wax poetic about Charlie Wilson (makes for a great movie) but one can't assume that if we had followed his advice Afghanistan would be completely different today. In the 70's and 80's the Middle East was rife with fundamentalist resurgence, remember Iran? Even if we had stayed and invested in Afghanistan, I imagine we would have left away. Economically there's not much bang for the buck. It's a very poor country with a population lacking in training and skills necessary for a post-industrial age. And what would they have to repay our kindness - oil? Also remember that we were still focused on the Evil Empire - the Soviets.

When Reagan wanted to completely eliminate all US and Soviet nuclear weaponry, conservatives only praised him. When Bill Clinton agreed to a maximum of 10,000 nuclear war heads each for the US and Russia, conservatives blasted him for weakening the military. So logical.

As to musikluvr's blame-game and Clinton's inexperience: with all the combined experience of this administration and its recycled professional politicians (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Negraponte, etc.)
just look at the sheer mess they have created. "

" "In spite of his ’character challenges’ Charlie did what they thought was best for this country without being overly concerned with the public opinions polls…..both the president above ignored and that’s why today his has risen to heights never imagined by any other Professional Philanderer in our nations history…. "

So glenroy are you talking about Newt Gingrich, Larry Craig, Tom DeLay or Alberto Gonzales? "

" Sandra wrote "This is what we are doing NOW in Iraq...many would have us drop the ball YET AGAIN, and allow what the democratic congress allowed back then to happen ALL OVER AGAIN."

So by that logic would you suggest that we should have stayed in Vietnam? At what cost and loss do you draw the line and say enough? And especially when we engage in wars where we are not attacked by them but are the invaders.

Because of the current debt, wear and tear on our military, we are in no position to battle away in Georgia. If China invades Taiwan, we can do little but watch. Yet many musically inclined conservatives , like John McCain are willing to bomb, bomb, bomb Iran. Believe me, Iran, with 80 million people (not the mere 25 million of Iraq) will not sit still if we are stupid enough to invade. And if we did attack, it would virtually cement universal hatred for the US throughout the Middle East.

So back to the line and where do you draw it? When our economy becomes so exhausted with war and debt that we can't pay our teachers, our doctors, our firemen or police. How many Americans have to lose their homes, their jobs and medical care before YOU realize that we can't conveniently make the rest of the world like us. What exactly is the extent of your shame and obligation to "fix" what we broke?

Iraq is going to do what it will do whether or not we are there. The weak (democratic) parliamentary system that has been installed and protected by us can only be protected by a strong Iraqi military run by a few strong generals. So we're almost back to where we started. "

" The bottom line is that we could do all the "nation building" we want in Afghanistan and it won't mean squat with the Taliban living across the border in Pakistan.

B.O. says he may invade Pakistan, which is far more dangerous than anything McCain has spouted... "

" And Kevin your solution to not going into Pakistan would be...? Perhaps we could offer Bin Laden a nice retirement home in Florida? Let him have a free lifetime pass to Disney World? Seduce him into NetFlix and a 60 inch flatscreen? If it will work, let's do 'er. "

" MyWrites...hmmm Viet Nam...well it was a different war...and by our leaving we opened the door for the Khmer Rouge and the killing fields of Cambodia...in hind sight should we have done different? There are arguments that say yes. It is done and we cannot go back. We are dealing with the NOW. And what we have done, in the increase surge, is getting results. Where do you get your ideas that McCain will "to bomb, bomb, bomb Iran..." Pretty inflamatory thing to say with nothing to back you up, isn't it? So you advocate that we should of left Iraq to Al Qaeda, so that it could turn into another Afghanistan...and that would make the world safer how?

Raven...you have no basis to say the Iraqis will not step up, or that we won't leave...again it is 2008, not 2010. If you make these statements and it is 2010, well then you have a leg to stand on.

Ruff, Definition of Pussyfoot: We went into Iraq and fought a politically correct war. It only allowed things to go on far longer, than if we had gone in as McCain wanted with more troops, etc. We ended up doing it anyway, but far too much time went by. So even from your perspective...wouldn't a shorter war have been better? "

" Sicko: Thank you. Your comment is taken as a typical liberal propaganda response to fact. "

" MyWrites,"What exactly is the extent of your shame and obligation to "fix" what we broke?" Obviously we have very different views on morality, if you ask such a question. There are more important things than money. In this country we live lives that are opulant compared to the rest of the world. We are spoiled beyond belief. We can all cut back and survive. People are losing their homes for the most part due to greed and stupidity. I would not have touched one of those loans with a ten foot pole. I would of waited, saved, and bought a home when I could of done so in a prudent manner.
So far teachers are being paid...fireman are being paid, and so are the police. Losing medical care? Well I have always paid for my own insurance. I have always worked and made my own money. I have mostly worked for myself, and not relied on someone else to do these things for me. My husband likewise. We do not partake of the things you say people cannot do without, and we do allright. That is what is great about this country. I truly believe that anyone can make it if they have the will to do so. Most of our problems are due to thinking we are entitled to handouts. If we have our minds, our bodies and a will to succeed, we will. People who do not have health or mental capabilities are taken care of. The others need to quit whining and get to work. We need to quit looking for someone else to take responsibilty for us and step up for ourselves. I want a safe world for future generations. That is more important in the larger scheme of things. "

" Sandra ...... seems to me it was the Military chiefs who wanted more troops and that was vetoed by Shrub and Cheny and Rumsfeld ... I don't recall seeing anything about McCain's role in the preinvasion planning .. as for whether a short war would have been better .... no war would have been best ...

and the Iraqis have been given a number of opportunities to step and have yet to do so without our help...how long do you want us to stay... just what conditions have to be in place before you say it is time to leave...

one other point puzzles me...how did leaving Vietnam open the door for the khmer rouge in Cambodia....we never went into Cambodia expect the for may 1970 invasion... "

" Well Sandra - if you want to play “that was then and this is now” game in regard to Vietnam and Iraq, then sorry, you can’t blame our Vietnam misadventure for the war and death in Cambodia. Two different governments and very different wars. Actually it was the communist government of Vietnam that fought against the Khmer Rouge, after we left and eventually drove them from power. Admittedly they installed their own puppet to run the country, but the killing in Cambodia was ended by the Vietnamese, not us. Anyway according to Nixon, we were never in Cambodia...

In both cases macho politicians attacked countries on false evidence, interesting that both Johnson and Bush were from Texas.

Actually the bomb, bomb, bomb Iran (to the music of the Beach Boys) was witnessed by millions on TV when a citizen at a town hall meeting asked McCain his view on nuke issues in Iran. You can check here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAzBxFaio1I&NR=1. Think he was just being funny? Perhaps it’s closer to McCain’s truth than you are comfortable with.

And McCain, in another reversal, now says we will be leaving Iraq soon, probably by 2010 predicated on our victory there. Initially he said “victory” could take as long as 50-100 years. He knows America won’t accept that regardless of who wins the White House. That’s why he has changed his tune. Senator McCain will have no problem downgrading his definition of “victory” and morality in regard to the current war when the American people take to the streets again and it becomes politically expedient to do so. And the Iraqi government has made it abundantly clear that they don’t want us there. So we stay anyway to assuage your guilt/morality and definition of victory? "

" Sandra wrote: "There are more important things than money. In this country we live lives that are opulant compared to the rest of the world. We are spoiled beyond belief."

Now you are starting to sound like former Senator Phil Graham who describes us as a nation of whiners. It was the wonderful Senator Graham (R - TX) who helped craft the anti-regulatory protection for banking institutions that led to the subprime meltdown. And Phil has been McCain's campaign cochair and economic advisor! You think John really let him go?
By the way, Graham received gobs of $$$ from Enron over the years as did his wife Wendy who sat on Enron's board. I know that was then and this is NOW, but do you start to get an clue why Dems see McCain as Bush, 3rd term?

Sandra also wrote: "People are losing their homes for the most part due to greed and stupidity. I would not have touched one of those loans with a ten foot pole. I would of waited, saved, and bought a home when I could of done so in a prudent manner."

And now your compassionate-conservative side is starting to show. No question there was a lot of greed manifested by the subprime mess, but I have the distinct impression you are blaming the victims and I don't mean the banks. Many people may not be as brilliant as you but they do not deserve to be labeled as stupid because they were deceived on their first mortgage. Rather bad form Sandra! "

" MyWrites, I definitely am a promoter of personal responsibility....if you think that is bad...well so be it. I do think we are a country that whines an awful lot. I think we have a generation that feels entitled and looks for easy answers. I have compassion for those who made bad decisions by taking out bad loans. I am sure everyone knows someone who is in this situation. Is it their fault they recieved poor educations that did not teach them to think critically, but indoctrinated them to believe they were entitled? Partially yes, but it is also the fault of extreme left thinking which created this reality we are in today. Nothing teaches one more than a lesson learned the hard way, if you are open to taking personal responsibility for your choices and actions. There will always be those who prey on the stupid and take advantage. I just worry that the far left has nthinking that created this reality, not mine. o concept of what being personally responsible is...they are too busy pointing fingers at those taking advantage of the ones they indoctrinated, and whining about it. It would seem more prudent to me to not allow oneself to be indoctrinated, and to be responsible and smart in ones actions, then no one will be able to take advantage of you. Hopefully some people have learned this.
And I think my form is fine...it is your form of "