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Obama offers real promise

Thursday, August 21, 2008

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Dear editor, I’m writing both as a resident of Napa Valley and a retired U.S. foreign service officer who spent 32 years representing our country around the world.

I am also one of several hundred retired American diplomats who have joined together to support the presidential candidacy of Barack Obama.

I am acutely aware that many of the challenges facing our nation are the result of a variety of global forces, and that confronting those challenges can be daunting for any American president. And yes, it would be folly to blame all our problems on the current administration. But President Bush and his team have made so many major mistakes over the past eight years — the “war of choice” in Iraq being the most consequential — that the political war-cry, “It’s time for a change,” has more meaning and urgency than usual.

While no one politician can solve our urgent domestic and foreign policy problems on his or her own, I truly believe that Barack Obama offers our country the promise of a pragmatic, non-ideological, professional and inclusive administration that will begin to tackle the difficult issues at home and abroad and help to restore America’s prestige — in the eyes of both our fellow citizens and the people with whom we share this fragile planet.

Sam Fromowitz / Yountville

192 comment(s)

hear ye wrote on Aug 21, 2008 12:23 AM:

" well said, Sam. It's going to be a tough challenge though. Bad habits are hard to break. "

jwk wrote on Aug 21, 2008 4:27 AM:

" You are joking us right Sam??? "

kevin wrote on Aug 21, 2008 4:58 AM:

" Unfortunately the "promise" is higher taxes, bigger government and less nation defense.

Fortuantely, the voters appear to be finding out who the REAL B.O. is and he is dropping in the polls. McCain is five points ahead among likely voters.

The Saddleback "debate" was a huge victory for McCain. We now know why B.O. refuses to do "town hall" debates with McCain. Without a teleprompter, B.O. sounds as confused and inarticulate as does George Bush... "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 21, 2008 5:31 AM:

" Better a veterinarian than a snake oil salesman. "

rpcv wrote on Aug 21, 2008 6:32 AM:

" Sam, your thoughtful analysis says it all. Sen. McCain questions Sen. Obama's judgment and experience. I think Obama has proven that his judgment is excellent-- he looks at all sides of an issue and is willing to adapt his ideas as situations change-- he even admits his mistakes. That is not flip-flopping; it's rational thought. All of the qualities Sam mentions are far more important than "experience," if that means more unilateral, reckless presidential actions that lead to disaster. Nuanced expressions of thought are discomforting to some, I know; but they do indicate a willingness to think things through before acting. "

kbf wrote on Aug 21, 2008 8:35 AM:

" jwk- Sam isn't joking and that is the sad part. Obama has NO experience on foreign policy, he voted against the war but voted to fund it. Sam you are right the present administration hasn't done everything right, but no administration has or will.
Think why some of the foreign nations want and would be happy if Obama was elected--they think he will be a push over.
Ruff-it wasn't that Obama dosen't wear the pin often enough he wasn't wearing it at all until the big roar came up, he took the American flag off his plane and put his symbol on. "

glenroy wrote on Aug 21, 2008 8:36 AM:

" Wouldn’t expect anything less from partisan bureaucrats….

The only promise Obama offers is more taxes, more government and more dependence on foreign energy…Obama, and his key advisors have less than a stellar track records, particularly on foreign policy matters where the same advisors that brought us the Islamic Republic of Iran provide key counsel, and no track record of personal experience on such basic accomplishments like actually holding a job at any level in the private sector…let alone any proven ability to manage and budget. "

Dwayne wrote on Aug 21, 2008 8:59 AM:

" Obama's half-brother was recently found living in a hut, in Kenya, living on about a dollar a month...

Since Obama wants to solve poverty at our expense, he really ought to start by writing his brother a big fat check, donchya think...??? "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 21, 2008 9:17 AM:

" Obama does offer the promise of 57 states, since he has claimed to have visited all of them during the primaries. McCain, being so much older, couldn't find 57 US states so he didn't visit them all.

I would love to see a new US state, set up as an experiment in libertarianism, provided that the government would leave it alone long enough to prove itself (they wouldn't). Problem is, we would have to build and patrol a huge border fence to keep out Obama and the socialists, who would not be able to stand our success and would want to come in and "improve" it with the promise of higher taxes, lost freedoms, and nanny programs. "

Gunga Ga Lunga wrote on Aug 21, 2008 9:26 AM:

" Barack Obama masquerades as something new, but he is just another politician, albeit one with a surpassing ability to make us feel good about ourselves for liking him. When he looks out over the crowds and sees all those adoring faces ready to hand the reins to the free world over to a rookie senator with a good sales pitch . . . well, no wonder he thinks he can say one thing, do another, and convince us the whole thing never happened.

Let’s put it this way: Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people, and Barack Obama isn’t about to go broke. In fact, quite the opposite. "

csvendsen wrote on Aug 21, 2008 9:47 AM:

" Sam, Sam, Sam,

If you really knew what was in that Obama "kool aid" so many liberals have been gulping down, you would'nt be drinking it! Go deeper man, start listening! "

jwk wrote on Aug 21, 2008 10:45 AM:

" In his own words, Barrack Hussein on "Most any issue of substance or where a decision must be made is "Above his Pay Grade". He's right about that!! "

fmmt47 wrote on Aug 21, 2008 11:15 AM:

" Hey, lay off Obama, after all, he campaigned in Europe to see if he could get their vote for president of the world under the auspices of the United Nations.
Not only will this candidate not wear a flag lapel but he had the United States Flag removed from his plane in order to not be associated with this country when he flew overseas. Maybe the Germans will be the swing voters in this elelection....of course after the Supreme Court makes it ruling on the vote count. "

Hear ye wrote on Aug 21, 2008 12:53 PM:

" I think we finally found the letter that has caused the most over the top and delusional response yet. Congrats Sam, you were the one to finally put these guys over the edge. They had been teetering for awhile. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 21, 2008 1:54 PM:

" Several hundred? Who says, besides Sam, that this is even remotely true? In any event, diplomats in the State Dept. have been undermining presidents since Eisenhower. So maybe it is true. They are the ones that told Georgia to go ahead and we would watch their back . . . "

cab e-girl wrote on Aug 21, 2008 2:19 PM:

" "Several hundred retired American diplomats who have joined together to support the presidential candidacy of Barack Obama carry a whole lot more weight than a bunch of dittoheads spewing regurgitated right wing radio blather. "

Really? Several hundred retired bureaucrats scare me! "

Dwayne wrote on Aug 21, 2008 2:24 PM:

" PPF..... Wikipedia how many Muslim states there are... No surprise there... ;) "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Aug 21, 2008 2:50 PM:

" Hear ye -- I am with ye! ~Ruff "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 21, 2008 2:54 PM:

" I agree that Senator (Sen.) Obama does come across as a cultured and learned individual. This is solely due to the vast majority of the media are already fawning disciples, and woe to the person who shows anything negative outside a Camelot-like positive light.

I have heard him make many promises too; I am also familiar with the old adage which goes “the check is in the mail' and “we’re from the government and we’re here to help.” As the 1980’s tune by Kajagoogoo went; “all I ever hear, promises, promises…”

Right now he is not answering the questions being tossed his way. His followers are instead calling those who DARE question his positions by many names, and proving their points as they do.

Here are a couple reasons I will be voting against Sen. Obama:

I support the Second Amendment; Sen. Obama does not, given his voting record, which HAS been proven to be more liberal than that of Edward ‘Teddy’ Kennedy. I believe his actions in the past have already spoken for him. I am one who “clings to his guns and religion.” I took that as an insult, and am still waiting an apology I know is never coming. His voting record says it all.

He claims friendship with felon William C. Ayers, an unrepentant co-founder and member of the Weathermen terrorist group which sought to overthrow of the U.S. government and took responsibility for bombing the U.S. Capitol in 1971. A pity his nail bomb only killed four of his fellow terrorists, and not innocents. This guy is now a leftist professor of at the University of Illinois, no surprise…

These are but two, as this blog has a 300 word limit… "

csvendsen wrote on Aug 21, 2008 3:05 PM:

" Several hundred "retired foreign diplomats" you say! They all must have retired during the Carter administration or they've been sipping the "kool aid" too!
Never the less, Obama could sure use their assistance right now, because he doesn't have a clue about foreign policy. And you got it right on dude....... Go AmericaRight! "

nightwatchman wrote on Aug 21, 2008 3:38 PM:

" Amen to that...yawn. It's hard to get worked up about the usual "he's gonna raise your taxes!" drabble after what we've seen over the last 7 years.

The Chicken Little stuff works for the dittoheads until the sky actually falls under a Republican. That has been their problem this election cycle.

Hopefully they are listening to Hannity and Rush to figure out what they are going to say about Johnny Boy forgetting how many houses he owns while calling Obama an elitist. "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 21, 2008 3:44 PM:

" Obama what........?

3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - NOT EXACTLY, he
was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has
ever had.

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - NOT
EXACTLY, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting
to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya. It is the first
widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American
but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. Your

half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga's follower. You interrupted your
New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone. Check out
the following link for verification of that....and for more.

Obama's cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and
tried to get Sharia muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the
elections, his followers have burned Christians' homes and then burned
men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took
shelter.. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here
started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. No one wants to know
the truth. "

glenroy wrote on Aug 21, 2008 4:01 PM:

" …….they’re not diplomats…besides doing the math if only couple thousand foreign staff are supporting Obama, and more probable a few hundred, that leaves several times that amount who aren’t supporting Obama.

I think the recent Gallup Poll of 67 or whatever % of the current and former armed force members openly supporting McCain….more than offsets what are often little more than make work political payback positions….…

…it was only a matter of time before Obama’s sheen shined off. "

misfit wrote on Aug 21, 2008 5:31 PM:

" I can't believe this rumor that somehow John McSame "Won" whatever that was at Saddleback last week. It is now common knowledge that McSame was fed the questions early as is the case with all of his Town Hall meetings. He doesn't attend anything where he isn't briefed on all questions beforehand. Even then, he forgets who, what, when, where and why. He is clearly incompetent! Now I hear that he gets annoyed at his wife because she takes an interest in new fangled gadgets like computers and sending e-mails. Can you believe that there is actually any interest at all in electing a man, so out of touch and incapable of doing something that any 14 year old can do. What is wrong with this picture?
Please JWK...fill me in. I am open to whatever light you can shed on your reasons for voting for McCain. "

misfit wrote on Aug 21, 2008 5:34 PM:

" You guys are impossible! The symbol on Obama's plane was a copyrighted logo for the previous owners of the plane. Quit making stuff up to fill in the blanks for your candidate.
John McCain has no morals, no lobbyist he hasn't been in bed with and has often abandoned his own "Principles" in order to get a vote. He's even using the same people that trashed him in 2000 to run his campaign now. There is a word for that I'm sure. "

russ wrote on Aug 21, 2008 5:35 PM:

" I call and raise you several hundred retired Defense Department officials.

This is meaningless, as career government bureaucrats, State Department or Defense Department, are just bureaucrats, but I will take experts with background in National Security.

sicko raises the level of conversation here to the level that Ruff desired.

Quite honestly, I have seen no particular competence in Obama. Obama is a smart, well educated guy, but he has never done anything. He is just another liberal Democrat politician. He was a COMMUNITY ORGANIZER in Chicago's South Side? How does that prepare him to be the most powerful person in the world.

The more Americans get to know about Obama, the less they like him. He is sliding down the tubes as we speak. It will get worse for him, unless he shows some of that competence pretty soon. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Aug 21, 2008 6:06 PM:

" russ- Aren't you the who portrays themself as an engineer and yet who insists that solar power can't fill the electrical needs of California even as PG&E lets two contracts to build multi-hundred megawatt solar arrays?

Why shouldn't we be taking what you say about 'competence' with more than "a grain of salt" as they say???

~Ruff "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 21, 2008 6:14 PM:

" Obama...cont'd

35.) I don't Have Lobbysists - NOT EXACTLY, you have
over 47 lobbyists, and counting. "

hear ye wrote on Aug 21, 2008 8:40 PM:

" Freeport-

are you serious with this stuff or just like to make my blood boil?

Odinga has CLAIMED to be a cousin of Obama in December of 2007. There hasn't been any evidence brought forth to prove that he is (not that it matters, anyway). Obamas phone call to him was to ask him to stop the violence and begin talks with Kibaki (whom Obama also spoke with). "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 21, 2008 8:41 PM:

" Ruff, why can't those supposed solar power experts invent the technology themselves? Why cant the hippies and brown shirt environmentalist Earth First types help them out with funding? Why do they keep seeking government funding like a welfare queen with 6 kids of whom the father is unknown and absent? The reason is they have NO clue, and only want the free money which IS the grants they do get. "

hear ye wrote on Aug 21, 2008 9:20 PM:

" Also Freeport I found the source of your comments and it actually made me sad that someone would take the time to put together so many lies and try to get like yourself to spread them around. "

zanchin wrote on Aug 21, 2008 10:15 PM:

" There's a reason that troops deployed overseas have given to Senator Obama over Senator McCain by an astounding margin of 6 to 1 . And for the President Bush apologists, it has nothing to do with Kool-Aid. I believe it has a lot to do with the reasons expressed by Mr. Fromowitz in his letter. "

DinoSilver wrote on Aug 21, 2008 10:24 PM:

" Raven - Candidate policies and discussion of issues are very important, and I don't think anyone here whould disagree with that. However, character and judgement should be held to a very high esteem for the office of President.

My thoughts on Obama are that he is very smart, articulate, and has great political savey. However, there is just too much baggage and controversy surrounding him ever since the first primary election. His previous church, his dealings with some questionable characters in Chicago, the Ayers connection, his half brother living in poverty... Goggle any anti-Obama web site and the issues are overwhelming. Even if those accusations are only half true - that's half too many.

In looking at his voting record - he voted Present more than yea or nea. Political postering. Yuck.

He doesn't pass the "smell" test. McCain may have policies many on this board don't always agree with, but at least his character is not questioned. Plus, with both the House and Senate at Democrat majorities, McCain would have to keep to centrist type policies if he expects to make any headway during his administration.

Finally, I have not quite grasped what type of "change" and "hope" Obama is offering. Anything that includes more government or more taxes - we can't afford that right now. "

russ wrote on Aug 21, 2008 11:03 PM:

" Ruff,

The PG&E solar power projects of 550 MW are a good addition to clean power and opportunity to prove the economics of solar.

Currently Diablo Canyon nuclear is 4 times as large, and

PG&E hydroelectric capacity is 8X as large, but every little bit helps.

Hydrocarbons provide about 50% of electric power in California and will for quite some time.

Al gore's goal of no fossil in 10 years is of course impossible.

Barack Obama offers the real possibility of future power blackouts in California by starving us of fuels. "

hear ye wrote on Aug 21, 2008 11:16 PM:

" dino-

I think your thinking of Obamas time as a state senator with the "present" thing. Also, McCain has MISSED 117 more votes than Obama.

and frankly I'm shocked that if i google anti-Obama sites that there are overwhelming issues. Lies are lies and should not be defended by any respectable person.

Why do you think that McCains character isn't being questioned? That's news to me.

ppf-

Racism might not be the right word to describe some of the comments that go on here although I have heard plenty of racism towards obama out in my daily life. When it comes to many comments on here they certainly show signs of people fears and prejudices towards other cultures. "

Joanne wrote on Aug 21, 2008 11:23 PM:

" DinoSilver: when you assert that "at least [McCain's] character is not questioned", you have overlooked some inconvenient truths.

I think it would be safe to say that the Reagans (as in Ronald and Nancy), among others, questioned Senator McCain's character when he abandoned his first wife, who was -- by all accounts -- rendered "less attractive" in the aftermath of a very serious auto accident to begin courting the very rich and very attractive woman that is his current wife.

Not that this is the only example of those who have called aspects of Senator McCain's character into question, but it's a good place to start ... "

shareathought wrote on Aug 21, 2008 11:30 PM:

" Hmmm...

"We" have lost the lives of thousands of our own, in a "war" based on false statements (and do we count the thousands Iraqs who have died?).

"We" hear ministers or preachers, telling us how we should feel & that it is fine with God if we kill for our country (were we or were we not, given a free will?).

"We" are over 52 trillion dollars in debt (if we double that will it be zillion?). The cost of basic needs increases. Unemployment is escalating. The homeless situation is more serious. Even those who have always paid are denied health insurance. Public transportation is almost non-existent outside large cities.

"We" read that American Issues Project (legally, a "nonprofit" with the ability to avoid campaign law), claims that Barrack is pals with Wm Ayers. Wm Ayers reportedly had ties with the Weather Underground some 40 years ago, and Barrack, worked together on a community project (charity for the poor), so we are to reject Barrack.

How long has charity been a negative trait?

(Coincidentally, E. Failor, just thirteen months ago, was a consultant for McCain's campaign and is currently a board member).

Already, the same twisted, deceitful, accusation can be found, posted here. "

shareathought wrote on Aug 21, 2008 11:45 PM:

" How is Barack Obama "starving us (Californians) of fuels" ??? "

Raven wrote on Aug 22, 2008 5:16 AM:

" well JR one of the lil ones is Obama supposedly ordering the removal of the American flag from his aircraft... "

Bauhausfan wrote on Aug 22, 2008 7:13 AM:

" I was going to write comments about the extreme conservatives who frequent this site but it is quite frankly useless. If you wish to read about the psychology behind this simply type The Authoritarians in Yahoo or Google. I guarantee you will be enlightened. "

jwk wrote on Aug 22, 2008 7:37 AM:

" OMG, You Lefties actually want us to believe Now "Character" matters???? Did you forget aboutWilliam Jefferson Clinton (You were fine with all his perversion) Hillary, John F Kerry and his Morals, Al Gore the hypocrite Oh and John (Boy) Edwards?? Good Grief!!! "

glenroy wrote on Aug 22, 2008 9:08 AM:

" Lack of substance…whose kidding who? Some of these ultra partisan Democrats suffer severe attention deficient disorder…

Democrats have blocked every energy independence bill since the first Reagan term…. half a dozen since January of this year alone….this country has sufficient energy reserves to drive the price of gas down well under $2.00 gallon for at least the next couple centuries…

Lies? How about silly lies…… Democrats unanimously claimed leading up to and immediately after Clinton’s ‘Wag the Cigar’ war that Saddam had to be removed unilaterally. A bipartisan bill was passed giving authorization…. Pelosi, Reid, Murtha and Boxer tripped over each other to get in front of the network cameras taking the credit.. it was the only course Saddam was hiding WMD …he would give terrorists WMD …that was the Democrat mantra before and after Clinton’s diversionary war, and again before and after Iraq’s liberation. Go back and read any major publication.

Those who follow politics know well for the rabid Democrat Saddam and al Qaeda ceased being the primary threat in 2000...the real war is for the treasury….

Substance… how would they know? … a fiction movie produced by Oliver Stone and Michael Moore as a source….wow…now that‘s impressive…PG-17.…no lib over 17 without an adult to explain the fiction parts. "

jwk wrote on Aug 22, 2008 9:32 AM:

" OK Have you heard another one of the many latests Gaff's by the messiah? Based on I guess his viewing of the Olympics, Now he's saying that Business's should move to Communist China, I kid you not!! And of course, Supporting China & Russia's idealism's.. That Russia is just acting like WE ARE!! Does he even know how many UN Resolutions we exasperated. Oh My God is it stupidity or Pandering again?? This guy HATES AMerica and everything we stand for!! UnBelievable!!Does he not remember he's running for President of the USA not Europe, Asia or Russia!! "

sickothis wrote on Aug 22, 2008 10:27 AM:

" Keating 5. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Aug 22, 2008 10:50 AM:

" MM, you have a great sense of humor.

I laughed and laughed! Complaining about renewable energy companies wanting the same subsidies that fossil fuel companies get all the time! What a kidder! I mean REALLY!!!

As if the biggest corporate welfare queens vacuuming up taxpayer money were not fossil fuel companies... and weapons manufacturers.

There is a big difference between building solar and wind -- and that is American jobs that can not be outsourced. And folks with steady well-paying jobs are taxpayers and homebuyers, instead of on unemployment and losing their homes.

But of course, so-called 'conservatives' don't want to have anything to do with conserving, or even creating new steady jobs in America. The current crop of 'conservatives' are mainly interested in maintaining the status quo that has worked out so well for multi-millionaires and billionaires. McCain can't even remember how many houses he has, and he wants MORE tax cuts for other folks who don't know how many houses they own.

If 'We, The People..." decide to have OUR government help a kid get their teeth fixed that is 'socialism', while giving billions to billionaires is 'capitalism'. Feh!

The government should finally start giving the renewable energy companies the same tax treatment the fossil fuel dinosaurs ALREADY GET.

But it remains true that all the "Get a horse" bullcorn with regard to alternative energy sources that is being pushed by self-styled "conservative" engineering experts has been proven to be... well... more like... elephant droppings than real 'food for thought'.

If the 'Flat Earth Society' is open to adopting a new division -- The "Renewable Energy Can't Work" crowd surely has a shot!

~Ruff "

reason-ator wrote on Aug 22, 2008 11:16 AM:

" Watching Obama stand in front of people and declare that he will NOT let people say things about him he doesn't like reminds me of a dictator. "

kevin wrote on Aug 22, 2008 11:24 AM:

" I actually agree with sicko on something! Not only did McCain accept illegal contributions from lobbiests, he turns around and BLAMES THE LOBBIESTS! Then he passes his stupid law restricting our First Amendment Rights in order to "stop" himself from accepting their money. Unbelievable.

With as poor a candidate as McCain is, it is AMAZING that the Democrats managed to find one that is even MORE unqualified... "

kevin wrote on Aug 22, 2008 11:27 AM:

" Hey Russ.

Why won't PGE tell us how MUCH we are going to have to PAY for the electricity generated by the new solar plant?

Could it possibly be because the unit cost is FAR HIGHER than any other form of energy available?

Could it be because the costs will be PASSED ON to us, the consumer? "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 22, 2008 12:06 PM:

" Is Barry even a citizen?

"In the lawsuit, Berg states that Sen. Obama was born in Kenya, and not in Hawaii as the senator maintains. Before giving birth, according to the lawsuit, Obama's mother traveled to Kenya with his father but was prevented from flying back to Hawaii because of the late stage of her pregnancy, "apparently a normal restriction to avoid births during a flight." As Sen. Obama's own paternal grandmother, half-brother and half-sister have also claimed, Berg maintains that Stanley Ann Dunham--Obama's mother--gave birth to little Barack in Kenya and subsequently flew to Hawaii to register the birth.

Berg cites inconsistent accounts of Sen. Obama's birth, including reports that he was born at two separate hospitals--Kapiolani Hospital and Queens Hospital--in Honolulu, as well a profound lack of birthing records for Stanley Ann Dunham, though simple "registry of birth" records for Barack Obama are available in a Hawaiian public records office". "

John Richards wrote on Aug 22, 2008 1:08 PM:

" Raven wrote: "well JR one of the lil ones is Obama supposedly ordering the removal of the American flag from his aircraft... "

Why settle for one of the 'lil ones'?
Anyway, what part of that is a lie? As I understand it, Obama had his campaign plane refurbished and repainted, and in he process has removed the flag of the United States from the tail of the plane. "

Hear Ye wrote on Aug 22, 2008 1:09 PM:

" Obama was born in Hawaii despite what your e-mails tell you.

Do you know where McCain was born? "

John Richards wrote on Aug 22, 2008 1:24 PM:

" I agree that Obama's continued connection with William Ayers, a notorious (and unrepentant) Weather Underground felon is sufficient to disqualify Obama from any serious consideration as a presidential candidate. "

Dr. Faustus wrote on Aug 22, 2008 1:34 PM:

" To Ruff:

word

To Kevin:

Of course the cost is going to be passed onto the consumer.

Where do you think profits come from exactly?

The only reason coal is cheaper per unit is because the industry is mature and coal is ubiquitous.

It will take some time, but alternative energies will experience the same kind of maturation every infant industry does.

Why does every conservative pretend that capitalism exists to give us the lowest prices possible? "

John Richards wrote on Aug 22, 2008 1:48 PM:

" Joanne, you say McCain "abandoned his first wife, who was -- by all accounts -- rendered "less attractive" in the aftermath of a very serious auto accident." In fact, that is not true. The ex-wife, Carol, says that the accident was not the reason for the divorce. She still respects and adores he ex-husband. If the divorce was amicable, why should it be a factor? "

hear ye wrote on Aug 22, 2008 4:04 PM:

" JR-

Why don't you tell us about Obamas connection to Ayers? "

hear ye wrote on Aug 22, 2008 4:08 PM:

" also what makes you think it was amicable? McCains first wife waited around 30 years to speak about it. Her hubby was sleeping with another woman and left her because "he didn't want to be 40 he wanted to be 25" in her words. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Aug 22, 2008 4:15 PM:

" Berg must be another Republican-enabling LIAR then.

Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and the 'Certification of Birth' proves it.

This NONTROVERSY that the Republican-enablers are clinging to like baby-pacifier, has to do with the way the certified copy of the document issued by the State of Hawaii was digitized for viewing on the web.

The actual document has been extensively examined and carefully photograhed by "factcheck dot org".

You don't have to take my word for it, you can look at the photos and judge for yourself.

However, I have very little faith that Republican-enablers are REALLY interested actually facing the truth that Obama is every bit as much a native born citizen as they might be.

I am afraid that these crackpot conspiracy theorists, other Americans have to agree with their politics to be real Americans, and so ONLY they can judge American-ness. Just like ONLY they can judge whose military service is good enough, or who is a 'real' American and who is a 'traitor'.

Yes, Barack Hussein Obama is just as American as the Republican-enablers who are thoughing up this trash.

Barack Hussein Obama DEFINITELY IS constitutionally eligible to be President of the United States of America.

So sorry, rightwing conspiracy theorists, you are wrong yet again.

And... now that you know the truth, or can find the truth out easily... if you keep spreading LIES... what does that make you? D*ck Cheney?

I hope these folks will fess up to the truth now, but I am not holding my breath.

~Ruff "

Paul wrote on Aug 22, 2008 4:23 PM:

" Mr. Fromowitz, If you really believe "that Barack Obamaoffers a pragmatic, non-ideological, professional and inclusive administration", then I have a fine selcection of well priced bridges for you to look at. Just a joke! Please enlighten me to Senator Obamas real accomplishments that lead to your conclusions. Talk is cheap. Where is the action? "

misfit wrote on Aug 22, 2008 4:39 PM:

" He CHEATED on her and the only reason it is "Amicable" is that good ole boy John, pays for her continuing medical care that she is dependant on.
Just be real for once!!! Just because you hate Obama doesn't mean you need to make John out to be a saint. He isn't by any stretch of the word. He's a liar, a cheater, and lacks any kind of character whatsoever. He would sell his soul to win this race in fact, he already has sold it 10 times over. He has been made to be something he isn't by fearful, desperate followers afraid that they won't have a daddy to protect them. It is pathetic to witness this blind faith in this man. "

misfit wrote on Aug 22, 2008 4:45 PM:

" CONServatives will do anything to detract from the issues because McCain cannot win on the issues. "

Joanne wrote on Aug 22, 2008 5:27 PM:

" JR,

McCain is no saint, so let's not pretend that he is. However, my initial post on this page was made in response (as a refutation) to DinoSilver's post, which read, in pertinant part: "at least [McCain's] character is not questioned." That, of course, is a patently absurd statement. As just one very well publicized example of those who have questioned Senator McCain's character, I offered Ronald and Nancy Reagan, who apparently -- among others -- took issue with the way he treated his first wife when he began to take an interest in his (now) current wife, Cindy and who frankly, yes, called his character into question as a result. (According to the LA Times: "The nature and timing of his divorce from Carol Shepp alienated key friends -- and his version doesn't always match that in court documents." ) My point is that, even if we "dismiss" the issue of how he treated his first wife at the time altogether, DinoSilver's suggestion that no one has questioned John McCain's character is either disingenuous or just plain, shall we say, poorly thought out. "

russ wrote on Aug 22, 2008 7:03 PM:

" Ruff,

Take a deep breath.

We Conservatives do not believe Obama is a Muslim.

We do not care where Obama was born as long as it was in the US.

We agree that Obama is eligible to run for president.

OK, case closed, The only reason it may come up is to tweak overly sensitive, angry liberals. Stick to issues.

I am glad that Obama is the nominee. He is a weaker candidate tha Hillary Clinton. Time will prove it.

Obama is not QUALIFIED to be president. he has no resume, never did anything, COMMUNITY ORGANIZER, what is that?

Obama is a smart guy with a good education and a lot of blank pages in his life. "

zanchin wrote on Aug 22, 2008 7:22 PM:

" Shouldn't we all just "Support the Troops?" There is a comman saying that starts "Money talks and...walks." Since the U.S. Troops overseas have supported Senator Obama over Senator McCain by a 6 to 1 margin in "Money Talks", what better way to support the troops than by supporting the candidate that the troops most support? "

Raven wrote on Aug 22, 2008 8:20 PM:

" <<We Conservatives do not believe Obama is a Muslim.

We do not care where Obama was born as long as it was in the US.

We agree that Obama is eligible to run for president.>>

so if you dont care, why keep bringing it up....and no, I dont believe it is to tweak....

Regarding his qualifications, last time I checked he is a United States Senator..and a member of the Illinois legislature before that.....hasn't been a community organizer for a number of years...and you agree he meets the legal requirements for being qualified for the position... "

hear ye wrote on Aug 23, 2008 12:23 AM:

" Russ-

While I agree that most republicans don't believe the smears and lies about Obama, many obviously do as the nvr comments show as well as interviews with everyday folk across the country. "

misfit wrote on Aug 23, 2008 7:47 AM:

" McCain was born in Panama. What does that mean? "

jwk wrote on Aug 23, 2008 11:04 AM:

" Since Osamabama won't release any personal information and his birth certificate Document was altered, Where exactly was he born?? Besides that has nothing to do with his incompetence, ignorance and hated of his country as to why he shouldn't be on a ticket let alone President. Panama? Is that the best you got?? "

jwk wrote on Aug 23, 2008 11:08 AM:

" P.s. McCains wife got all of Her houses Legally?? John boy only has two!! Does the Risko deal ring a bell to you Lib's?? $14Million dollars? I'm sorry how many homes does John Kerry Have?? AL Gore?? The Kennedy's? The Clintoon's?? How did they acquire them?? Cattle futures, Back room deals?? "

Raven wrote on Aug 23, 2008 3:31 PM:

" and you evidence that is birth certificate was altered is from whom? "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 23, 2008 3:53 PM:

" McCain was born in Puerto Rico. "

greysack wrote on Aug 23, 2008 3:56 PM:

" McCain has 57 homes, one in each state "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 23, 2008 5:55 PM:

" Ruff, you didnt answer my question about why the environmentalist lefties dont go out and invent the technology and jobs THEMSELVES without government help? Its just like complaining and whining about Wal-Mart, when you could go out and create a competative company! "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 23, 2008 8:17 PM:

" Or maybe it was France or the more exotic Arkansas..... "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 23, 2008 8:26 PM:

" Biden,

1.Plagerized a speech by a member of the British Labor party causing him to drop out of the '88 race.

2. VOTED FOR THE GULF WAR!

3. loves to stick his foot in his mouth.

I gues that cancels out Obama's "I did not vote for that war speech" Ha Ha Ha. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 23, 2008 10:02 PM:

" greysack -
It was Obama who said he visited 57 states, and said it on more than one occasion. Come on, how many US citizens don't know how many states we have in the US?

That is a far worse gaffe than McCain not knowing how many homes he has. The question is how could he, since he has not been able to be active in managing his own business affairs while in the Senate. We don't know how often his wife buys or sells her properties.

The real purpose of Obama pushing the house stuff is to try to paint McCain as a rich guy, which he is. So what? Obama is a rich guy too. He probably doesn't know half the stuff he owns or has an interest in.

Most senators put their assets in a blind trust so they can avoid any conflict of interest issues. "

kevin wrote on Aug 23, 2008 10:14 PM:

" Excellent point MM!

All these hundreds or thousands of environmentalists demanding we invent cars that run on water and power plants that produce only rainbows as waste products.

CAN'T JUST ONE OF THEM STUDY ENGINEERING INSTEAD OF POLITICAL SCIENCE??? "

greysack wrote on Aug 24, 2008 7:52 AM:

" ppf, it was a joke aimed at obama, come on. "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 24, 2008 11:43 AM:

" kevin, I think it is easier to study political science than it is to take up courses which would lead to a revolutionary breakthrough in science. Besided, I think that PolySci students get more dope and chicks than the nerds in the sci department... just an outside thought... It WOULD explain much of the left... "

Sandra wrote on Aug 24, 2008 7:25 PM:

" Gosh PPF...I knew it was a joke on Obama and the states....greysack, do not be too hard on PPf, I think a lawn mower might of got a little close, and distracted her on her way to wizard school. Being what I think may be a similar age and female...well there are times the old brain is just not in full gear...we women have way too many things running through our heads at once, being the multitasking goddesses we are. You try getting inside our heads and just see how well you do. I really doubt there is any man alive who could last more than 30 seconds. (of course, I am assuming you are male. I know of few women who would pick the name greysack, maybe goldchemise, but not greysack....if I am wrong, forgive me. I will blame it on the menopause.....) "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 24, 2008 9:16 PM:

" Speaking of Obama jokes (a solid redundancy), here's one I just heard:

A man died and went to heaven. As he stood in front of St. Peter at the
Pearly Gates, he saw a huge wall of clocks behind him.

He asked, 'What are all those clocks?'

St. Peter answered, 'Those are Lie-Clocks. Everyone on Earth has a
Lie-Clock.

Every time you lie the hands on your clock will move.'

'Oh,' said the man, 'whose clock is that?'

'That's Mother Teresa's. The hands have never moved, indicating
that she never told a lie.'

'Incredible,' said the man. 'And whose clock is that one?'

St. Peter responded, 'That's Abraham Lincoln's clock. The hands
have moved twice, telling us that Abe told only two lies in his entire
life.'

'Where's Barrack Obama's clock?' asked the man.

'Obama's clock is in Jesus' office. He's using it as a ceiling fan.

Well, there it is; call me a racist now, I have DARED soil the loftyness of his Saintliness... "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 24, 2008 9:54 PM:

" greysack - I am so sorry, I offer my most humble apologies. I thought you were a dog barking from the other side of the fence.

In fact, I did think about it later and wondered if I picked it up wrong, so it took my poor old brain awhile. And yes it had been a busy and stressful week but I shouldn't use that for an excuse. One should have one's wits about oneself before posting, y'know.

As far as my being female, well you know how it is with plastic pink flamingos - can't tell one from another and we do all look the same from the other side. Hmm, androngynous plastic pink flamingos. And there is precedent, after all MarshaMarsha is male, and I'm sure there are some male sounding names here who are female. I kind of like being anonymous. Well, OK, I'm really a dog, that's why I like to bark so much. But it takes me awhile to type these posts with paws. What kind of paws did you say you have Sandy? MenoPaws?

But I will admit to being on the wrong side of 20. Well, OK, the wrong side of 30. Ummm, maybe 40? 50? Yikes, the calendar is moving faster than the one in MM's clock story! But you really can't tell, except older ppfs often exhibit fading from the sun. And we don't hold up too well when Russian tanks run over us.

Statler: So who really is that masked flamingo?
Waldorf: I don't know, all it left behind was a silver . . . darn it! That wasn't a bullet and its not silver, that's . . . and I just stepped in it! "

Sandra wrote on Aug 25, 2008 9:38 AM:

" hehehehe...meno paws....I guess it depends where I am....when I play poker, I have fins, since in that arena I am a SHARK...It is even harder to type with fins then paws, believe me....But here, I will proudly admit I am a cranky menopausal female....I will also admit that I have many times mistaken the sex of the poster...but in my imagination, you are definitly a girl flamingo, and greysack is male. Course I thought Teacher was female, and boy was I wrong there. It totally threw me off when I discovered the truth. lol... "

yvonne wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:00 AM:

" For the first time in the almost 30 years that I have been voting I don't know who to vote for. I have always voted democrat, but there isn't a democratic candidate that is worth my vote. And the republican candidate scares me too. I don't trust any of them, didn't like Hilary either. Now what? "

napablogger wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:38 AM:

" yvonne, welcome to politics, I have been that way most of the time. This time I actually think Obama and McCain are both pretty good candidates, compared to what we usually have.

McCain is going to continue Bush's over reaction to terrorism and not adapt to the changing world situation, but I think he gets it about the economy.

Obama is the opposite, he gets it about foreign relations but not the economy. The thing I like about Obama is that he is flexible and shows that he will change his mind as new info comes in. McCain is in an old age box and I doubt his ability to see things new.

Now Obama's tax increases are down to a 4% payroll tax increase for soc sec on those who make over $250,000, plus going back to Clintons 39.5% top marginal rate, corporate taxes to 35% and cap gains to 25%. I hope he keeps moving in that direction-down.

If Obama moves in the direction of cutting costs he will really be moving forward.

But I guess any fact based discussion of candidates positions like this is a bore, huh?

Obama's cousin is a Muslim! McCain spends $250,000 a year on household servants! Whew, that feels better. Almost had an actual thought there for a second. "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:38 AM:

" yvonne-

Wait for mcCain's V.P. pick. It is almost certainly better than Obama's choice of I'll just borrow these words" Biden. "

C'mon reg get it right wrote on Aug 25, 2008 1:20 PM:

" Cmon MarkM, That joke was used first back in the 70's by Pat Paulsen in relation to then President Nixon, though it probably started with Herbert Hoover. You gave no credit thus you are guilty of plagerism. If your not careful you'll be called a politician or worse yet Vice President.

Thank you
The joke Police "

anticommie wrote on Aug 25, 2008 3:19 PM:

" Obama is nothing more than the new left wing progressive prized canidate. Everything the man claimed to be is turning out to be what many of us already knew: He is your typical liberal activist. He might as well put on a pink shirt and protest the Marines recruiting station in Berekely.

He says he wants change in Washington, but choses a man like Joe Biden who has been a member of the U.S. Senate for how long? 30 some years? It proves to me that the Democrates still have everything backwards.

The canidate of "change" is just that: change. But change is not always is a good thing, especially if it is policies that men like Marx and Lennon preached. The man stands for higher taxes, less rights to law-abiding gun owners, wealth distribution and full out Socialism. The scary part of this many supporters of Obama agree with this liberal rhedoric. "

yvonne wrote on Aug 25, 2008 4:26 PM:

" Thanks Napablogger and Freeport56, I do appreciate the imput since I really don't care much for political discussion, and am not really happy with the choices we have. I do think it is a good idea to wait to see who McCain picks as a running mate. "

Raven wrote on Aug 25, 2008 4:49 PM:

" so...while everyone has been castigating Obama as far as 'change' is concerned...

Exactly what 'change' would a life-long senator like McCain bring?.... esp with his recent endorsements of nearly every policy est by "shrub" "

kevin wrote on Aug 25, 2008 7:35 PM:

" NB says,"McCain is going to continue Bush's over reaction to terrorism "

Excuse me? President Bush's (and Congress's) response with the War on Terror was EXACTLY the appropriate reaction to 9/11.

Clinton prosecuted some of the Islamofascists and threw them in jail and all that accomplished was a second, successful attack on the WTC.

Osama bin Laden attacked us because he thought we were weak. He thought because of our weak response in Mogidishu we were a "paper tiger".

The forceful use of our military has been effective in changing that opinion and has kept this country from being attacked again. Deaths from terrorism are declining world wide. Al Queda has been defeated in Iraq and has lost much of it's public support because of it.

The LAST thing we need now is some "pencil neck" geek like Obama trying to undo all the success we have made... "

Raven wrote on Aug 25, 2008 8:23 PM:

" hmm........maybe I forgot...when did we capture Osama bin Laden? "

jwk wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:31 PM:

" OBL should of been captured one of the three times he was offered up to "Bent Willie Clinton" and 09/11 would never of happened. So Thank God "W" had the kahonies to go for it and deplete his Radical Islam forces over there instead of Here. As long as we keep it up, eventually they'll run out of Terrorist's. And just maybe The Old Navy guy will get him in his first 4 year term! Sodamn Insane was a great start. Looks like The Nut Job in IRAN will be next.. We know noting but cut and run would happen if the lefties had their way!! "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 26, 2008 7:16 AM:

" Raven, if picking an old white guy like plagiarist Bieden is Saint Obama's definition of 'change' the he deserves the chastising he is getting. Bieden has been a senator LONGER than McCain - Bieden IS the entrenched politician old B.O. has been racing against! I'd rather have a McCain with some Bush policies than an Obama with the policies of Castro, The P.L.O., the Nation O' Islam and Hugo Chavez ANY DAY! "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 26, 2008 7:17 AM:

" Raven, you may not know that democrat President Truman never caught Adolph Hitler either! "

Raven wrote on Aug 26, 2008 7:27 AM:

" would have, should have....and again.....when did Bush capture Osama bin Laden?.....dead or alive.....? "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 26, 2008 8:09 AM:

" would have, should have....and again.....when did Bush capture Osama bin Laden?.....dead or alive.....? "

Raven, you already know that Clinton had at least three real opportunities to nab Obama, but you give him a pass in order to blame Bush? "

MarkMathews wrote on Aug 26, 2008 11:55 AM:

" Raven, ppf definitely dropped the neutron bomb on your smarmy little rant of a question, didn't he? I would request that you give President Bush as much time to capture OBL as it took Queen Hillary to locate those missing White Water files, ok? Or as much time as it takes Saint Obama to find his real birth certificate, ok? Or as much time as it will take Joe Bieden to find his next speech to plagerize, ok?

C'mon reg get it right: You have a point, until one discovers that it has already become part of the public domain of jokes, so no authorship is required. I wouldn’t want to be in trouble with the joke police! "

marine1/1 wrote on Aug 26, 2008 1:02 PM:

" What a joke!!! You're kidding me right? You think things are bad now, just wait. Where is the sarcastic 14Obama? Nothing to say for a change? Way to show your support. Obama won't win anyway. "

Hear Ye wrote on Aug 26, 2008 1:36 PM:

" Raven has a solid question/point that no one has answered. Answering with a question about Clinton is just changing the subject. .

MM-

You're just preaching to your own choir with most of your comments. As long as you continue to compare Obama to the Nation of Islam, Castro, etc. and push the endlessly tired smears such as his birth certificate is fake you will never be taken serious by any political opposition. "

Dr. Faustus wrote on Aug 26, 2008 2:26 PM:

" MarkMathews

Raven's question is still valid. Bush promised - vowed - to bring Bin Laden to justice. Clinton has nothing to do with Bush's failure to fulfill this promise. Biden has nothing to do with that failure. Neither does White Water or birth certificates or any other red herring you decide to throw into the mix.

How many opportunities has Bush had to capture Bin Laden? After two foreign invasions, tortured confessions, domestic wire tapping, secret courts, secret warrants, and one strategic alliance with Pakistan - everything except for the partridge in a pear tree - Bush still can't bring forth the gifts he has promised.

You are correct: Clinton had three opportunities to capture Bin Laden on his watch and he failed to act. Too bad.

I suppose Clinton should’ve used his magical powers of clairvoyance to predict 9/11? Then he could’ve donned his lapel-pin of fury to dispatch Bin Laden in an awesome display of mortal hand-to-hand combat.

Would that have made the G.O.P. happy?

Doubtful.

Hindsight is terribly unforgiving.

So what's Bush's excuse? "

Raven wrote on Aug 26, 2008 3:05 PM:

" well MM, since Hitler died 18 days after Truman became president, I don't see how he had much of a chance to capture him. "

Raven wrote on Aug 26, 2008 3:09 PM:

" While Clinton may or may not have had three opportunities to kill and or capture bin Laden, Clinton didn't throw the full weight of the US military in an armed invasion of his stronghold and declare to the world he wanted bin laden captured dead or alive..... "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 26, 2008 3:12 PM:

" Hear Ye said - As long as you continue to compare Obama to the Nation of Islam, Castro, etc.

MM wasn't making that comparison, did you read the post? It was in response to Raven's post, who brought up the subject of capturing bin Laden. Hard to take something serious when it is so taken out of context.

Dr. Faustus - Clinton had the benefit of the intelligence community's knowledge of bin Laden and yes he should have anticipated further trouble from ObL. So saying "too bad" doesn't make it all right for the families of the 3,000+ killed on 9/11. Don't try to twist things around, Clinton knew very well what the situation was and chose to ignore it. Put the blame where it belongs. "

hear ye wrote on Aug 26, 2008 4:21 PM:

" Ppf-

I think you read the wrong comment i was responding to. This is the exact quote from markmatthews:

"I'd rather have a McCain with some Bush policies than an Obama with the policies of Castro, The P.L.O., the Nation O' Islam and Hugo Chavez ANY DAY! "

Hardly taken out of context "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 27, 2008 7:22 AM:

" Raven - While Clinton may or may not . . .

There is no question that he did have at least 3 chances to nab ObL. Why is it so difficult to admit that Clinton made mistakes? Every president in our history has made mistakes, Clinton and Bush are no exceptions.

But it gets very tiring to keep on reading how perfect Clinton was and how horrible Bush is. Truth be told, they have both fumbled around for eight years. Plenty of blame for everyone.

Interesting to watch the tepid 'party unity' stuff Hillary said last night, and noteworthy that she did not retract any of the negatives she aimed at Obama during the primaries. It was a good speech technically, but did not deliver the goods for Obama. It is obvious that she will not be disappointed if Obama loses so she can run again in 2012. She would easily defeat the defeated Obama in the primaries if he ran again. "

glenroy wrote on Aug 27, 2008 9:14 AM:

" Are people really that naïve….

At this point capturing OBL wouldn’t make any difference to the threats or security of this nation…that opportunity was ignored when it could have made a difference in the mid 1990s.

Since 9/11, this is about war, war is about attrition…killing large numbers of terrorists is far more important than which hole OBL has take residence….this is about long term effectiveness…it’s building alliances among Muslim nations to fight where it is not practical for us….about stopping the production and spread of WMD….about eliminating heavens….about fighting the war on our terms using our superior fire power. That is the only way this war can be won….finding OBL is about political self preservation.

Democrats harping on such a meaningless issues is a prime example of the logic that led to the 9/11 attacks ….to them symbolism of public perception is of greater importance than the substance of measured results. The Peace Dividend is fine example, the only thing that resulted from the Clinton Peace Dividend was a bunch of slap happy liberal self flagellating and the 9/11 attacks which was the direct result of the under funding our intelligence agencies.

If OBL was in captivity today, these same libs would be complaining about the inhuman treatment he was receiving from the Bush Administration…..apparently some of these fruit cakes still consider terrorism a criminal act.…..let OBL rot in his hole, sooner or later he will pop his head up a little too high…until then get on with the business of actively demonstrating to friend and foe the consequences of slaughtering thousands of innocent Americans. "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 27, 2008 10:41 AM:

" PPF,

I beg to differ, Hillary knocked it out of the park last night. jumping ship and voting for 4 more years of the past 8 years would know be considered offensive to her.

Do you seriously think the Dems would welcome back with open arms any Dems who contributed to even more misery of a Republican controlled white house? We as Americans made that mistake before. You know having a Republican controlled White House and senate. I doubt we'd do that again. Well that is unless we truly haven't suffered enough.

I now honestly believe that the war in iraq was engineered to further line the pockets of the uber rich and mega corporate greed. We should have gone after Pakistan and Supported Afghanistan. We needed then and now need to control those ports where the oil is being shipped to and from. NOT go after some two bit dictator who sent a lame hit squad to go after dubya's daddy.

Arm chair quarter backing is great but we seem to have memory loss every four years.

There are some who claim experience is the issue and race has no part in this election. I respond by saying ..tell that to the west virgina voters who I at least RESPECT for having the testicular fortitude to openly and honestly admit why they'd NEVER vote for Obama.
Race baiting, lying, conniving and attack ads do not do this country any good. Its a major disservice to all of us as Americans. Time to move on and clean the entire slate! If I had the power, I'd clean out both sides and start anew. YES we CAN!
1 politician at a time. Stick a fork in McCain. "

valleylocal wrote on Aug 27, 2008 11:09 AM:

" No matter what your argument is against Obama - and I believe most of them are out of ignorance and bigotry- I cannot understand anyone in their right mind who would want a pro-military hothead in a position of having his finger on the trigger. Nothing could be worse than that. Nothing. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 27, 2008 11:24 AM:

" I stand by my comment - it was a nice speech, a good speech, got the crowd excited. But it was NOT a ringing endorsement for Obama. She only talked about 'party unity' and did nothing to wipe out all the stuff she had said about Obama in the primaries. She wants to be president, she believes that she should be president, and there is no doubt in many peoples' minds that she will be quite happy if St. Obama loses. She cares not for party or country, or even Bill, she only cares about Hillary. She is a soulless politician.

ADark1 - I don't know why you want to bring race into this. I would not support any socialist candidate of any party or of any color. It's the leftist socialist part that I do not think is good for our country. Or ever would be. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 27, 2008 4:02 PM:

" ADark1
Tried to respond to your last post which I have a great deal of disagreement with, but it has not been posted. I guess it's OK for you to say 'race' but I can't. "

Raven wrote on Aug 27, 2008 5:10 PM:

" I never said Pres Clinton didn't make mistakes.....but my god, you people need to get over him....he left office in 2001 and since then it has been Shrub's ball game.....and I find it interesting to see how Shrub's vaunted dead or alive vow is ignored...by him and his supporters... "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 27, 2008 5:16 PM:

" PPF I didn't bring race into this as far as your remarks go...No, not at all, however, it is something that more then a few have either hinted at, or bodly have brought into discussion either here on this blog, or in the general media reports. As such, I at least addressed it. It does need to be addressed.

I stand by MY statements as well.. Once again great Pink One we agree to disagree. I hope that clarifies it for you. As far as your comment concerning hillary...you raise a very good point...especially since she was the one who's given the Republicans fuel for their fire. That is partially why I sincerely believe she did NOT win the nomination nor was given the vp spot. Lest we forget her comments regarding the RFK Incident. "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 27, 2008 5:19 PM:

" Besides what could she possibly say to take back those words and attacks she used? She felt ENTITLED to the nomination...she got a smackdown from voters that she she wasn't entitled.. souless? perhaps but that's a discussion for another time. "

Hear Ye wrote on Aug 27, 2008 5:26 PM:

" Quotes from Hillary's speech:

"Barack Obama is my candidate. And he must be our president."

"...Those are the reasons I support Barack Obama. And those are the reasons you should too."

"We need to elect Barack Obama because we need a President who understands that America..."

"And when Barack Obama is in the White House, he'll revitalize our economy, defend the working people of America, and meet the global challenges of our time. Democrats know how to do this. As I recall, President Clinton and the Democrats did it before. And President Obama and the Democrats will do it again."

'But remember, before we can keep going, we have to get going by electing Barack Obama president"

She did hit a homerun with her speech. She lifted and endorsed Obama, acknowledged her own campaign to satisfy her supporters, and fired on McCain. It was everything that democrats hoped it would be.

She doesn't need to address the things she said during the primaries. She was campaigning, of course she is going to criticize her opponents. If Romney is veep for McCain is he going to take the stage and tell everyone he was just kidding about all the stuff he said about McCain? "

dr. faustus wrote on Aug 27, 2008 5:31 PM:

" Glenroy -

If we captured OBL, I would be one of those making sure he was treated fairly.

I'm fairly sure Obama would too.

McCain would not.

Justice isn't to be ignored when inconvenient. One cannot "suspend" Justice to suite ones purposes. Otherwise it is not Justice, nor was it ever Justice. Justice is the application of punishment with reason; equally, unequivocally, and at all times.

Anything less is despotism.

"But it's too hard! I can't do whatever I want when I need to."

This is the logic of a child; the logic of tyrants.

Even Nazi's were afforded due process; and they murdered more people than OBL ever will.

True Justice is at all times, everywhere. It is in prisons and courts; and yes, even on the battlefield. Calling terrorists "enemy non-combatants" is nothing more than semantics designed to justify that which is unjustifiable.

I could never trust any person who would attempt to convince me that Justice is only for us and not for them.

How long before I become a them?

I'm voting for Obama.

One of the few issues I have with him, however, is that he's not left enough. In any other first-world nation, Obama is considered right-of-center.

But, at least I can say that Obama wouldn't try to rationalize torture, roving wire-taps, no-knock warrants, and secret prisons as a way to "preserve the American way of life."

Is that the American why of life, Glenroy?

And conservatives have the nerve to call liberals whack-jobs… "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 27, 2008 7:13 PM:

" PPF and other of Right Thinkers-

Dr. Faustus is correct Clinton had nothing to do with Bush's failures. Clinton was kind enough during tonights speech to highlite most of his failings as a President by lying about his past and Obamas future.

Dr. Faustus, as with his ilk, do not want us to use every method at our disposal to fight terrorism. We must negotiate with it and appease it. We must use our vast resources to support the U.N. and it's global mission of corruption and non-intervention. As with Johnson's "War on Poverty" we must throw away another 4 Trillion dollars with Zero results. We must pay higher taxes so that wasteful social programs can feed an ever expanding, glutonous government. We must realize that only the far left of the DEmocratic Party knows what is best for all of us and institute a dignified European model of life for us to enjoy.

And finally, we must become as intolerant as those that know what is best for us. They and only they have the Noth American Union at heart.

Oh, I almost forgot. I AM THE NRA! "

russ wrote on Aug 27, 2008 8:51 PM:

" Mr. Faustus,

Thanks for the lecture on your justice.

I happen to disagree with most of your despotic, Nazi, tyrant points.

I happen to believe that, all in all, America and our government, Republican or Democrat, try to do what is right for the American people.

Take a vacation. "

Raven wrote on Aug 27, 2008 9:18 PM:

" so explain to me the lies Clinton spoke tonight?

and Dr. Faustus is right about one thing, you cannot throw away justice merely because it is inconvenient or slow.....if you do, it isn't justice. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 27, 2008 9:31 PM:

" Raven, once again you start something and then act surprised when people respond, and wonder why they don't just accept your Bush-hate-blame. You were the one blaming Bush for not capturing ObL, did you expect everyone to ignore the fact Clinton blew it in the first place? You are the one who needs to get over blaming Bush for every possible thing that has gone wrong in the world for the last 8 years, probably the next 8 years, and it even appears that you blame Bush for Clinton's mistakes.

So Bush has done many things wrong. I don't like the vastly increased government and its ability to spy on us. I do not believe in giving up freedom for security (which as we know gets you neither one).

But according to some of you people, Bush set up 9/11, turned over the US Treasury to big oil, personally blew up the levees in New Orleans during the hurricane, made up stuff to start a war (even though the Dems were parroting the same lines - and don't tell me they believed what Bush said without question - if they did they should be impeached). Busy guy. I am amazed at the incredible hatred out there. Talk about needing to get over it!

And regarding not talking about Clinton, you can expect it every time you blindly attack Bush for every little thing, especially as in this instance where your deity Clinton made the real mistake. You and Ruff can go on with your demeaning little names etc. and I will not stop naming Clinton when he deserves to be blamed. We don't need another Clinton/Carter type presidency like St. Obama would give us. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 27, 2008 9:35 PM:

" dr faustus - back to the history books for you! Please re-read about justice in Nazi Germany.

Regarding treating Obama fairly, what leads you to believe McCain wouldn't? He was a thorn in the side of the administration on torture, why on earth do you think he would change? I would think someone who spent 5-1/2 years as a prisoner of war under cruel conditions would be a little bit sensitive to that, don't you? Where do you come up with this stuff - there is nothing out there that supports what you are saying. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 27, 2008 10:07 PM:

" Hillary did not get the VP spot because St. Obama did not want to be part of a three-president arrangement, which is an excellent reason not to name her as his VP.

Hillary did not get enough voters to choose her to get the top spot either. I think many were turned off by her attitude (and Bill's) that she is entitled to be president. She is not. And so I do not believe her for one second. It is easy to spot her verbal gerrymandering to get around full support for Obama. Just watch and see how much help Hill & Bill give St. Obama in the coming weeks. I predict Zilch. Nada. None. Bupkis.

ADark1, if you were a charismatic libertarian/conservative candidate running for president, I would be proud to get out there and work for your candidacy. I could take Darth Doggie for walks so she doesn't snarf the reporters (just kidding, I would do much more than that). So I don't agree when someone suggests I don't support Obama because of his skin. I don't support Obama because he is way too far left, and if he is too far right for other countries, that's too bad. I don't care who other countries think we should elect, I don't care for their socialism either. We haven't signed our sovereignty away to the United Nations. At least not yet. "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 27, 2008 11:10 PM:

" Rave-

1.We were attcked 11 times by terrorist under clintoon- he blew up an asprin factory.

2. Clintoon dismantled our military, FBI, and intellegence services.

3. Traded our miniturization technique for nuclear weapons and submarine technology for camp[aign contributions from the chinese. Remember Al Gore and $140,000.00 from the Buddist monks in W. Los Angeles.

4. Took credit for the Tec bubble that burst badly.

5. Monica "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" Lewinsky

6. Impeached!

So when your god Apollo appears tomorrow night and the drueling starts, I will be laughing. Again, the not so bright left chases a wanna be. "

kevin wrote on Aug 28, 2008 7:37 AM:

" Being that Greek temples were built as places for their gods to live in, some Dem's are a little concerned that "the messiah" B.O. has chosen one as the stage for his speech tonight... "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 11:44 AM:

" kevin,

Actually dubya had a similiar set for his second convention...what's the matter? Too close for comfort? "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 11:57 AM:

" Freeport56 said in part....
"We must realize that only the far left of the DEmocratic Party knows what is best for all of us and institute a dignified European model of life for us to enjoy...

And finally, we must become as intolerant as those that know what is best for us. They and only they have the Noth American Union at heart."

Ummmm Freeport56 you DO realize that it was Bush who in fact SIGNED the treaty for the North American Union and is attempting to move this country to the very model you espoused .....right?

Furthermore he signed the thing without any input from our congress or house. He has essentially committed treason by wiping out our borders, and seceding the USA into that same european model of which you spoke.

So, when you're at Micky D's buying burgers with the Ameros, I'm sure you'll know who to thank! "

Dr. Faustus wrote on Aug 28, 2008 12:00 PM:

" -PPF

I'm not sure I should be the one going back to the books.

"Even Nazi's were afforded due process..." was a reference to Nuremberg.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I did fail to make the reference explicit in my post.

The purpose in pointing out Obama's right-of-center policies was to quell the inane babel that he is somehow a socialist. Clearly he isn't, as other more socialistic countries wouldn't consider him one - and who better to apply the socialist label to a person than another socialist.

-russ

I'm sorry you don't understand that a person who demands carte blanch authority is a tyrant.

This is pretty basic stuff.

-Freeport56

"Dr. Faustus...[does] not want us to use every method at our disposal to fight terrorism."

Romans used to do something similar. They would suspend their "democratic process" by granting a ruler total authority in times of war and instability.

Admittedly, this tactic worked at times. The problems occurred when the ruler decided not to give it back.

And surely you don't mean every method at our disposal? Would you suspend the constitution? How about habeas corpus? Would you suspend certain rights?

Clearly you support torture. I'm sure nuclear strikes are still on the table. So where do you stop?

After all, every method means just that - every method. "

Dr. Faustus wrote on Aug 28, 2008 12:11 PM:

" Freeport56

Yes, we were hit eleven times. You neglected to mention, however, that most of those attacks occurred on foreign soil.

These attacks occurred in places where we were told repeatedly to go away. They occurred in countries with highly oppressive governments we supported.

Would we react any differently to foreign troops in Alabama? "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 12:53 PM:

" PPF!!!!!!!!!!!

You stated in part, ADark1, if you were a charismatic libertarian/conservative candidate running for president, I would be proud to get out there and work for your candidacy. I could take Darth Doggie for walks so she doesn't snarf the reporters (just kidding, I would do much more than that). So I don't agree when someone suggests I don't support Obama because of his skin. I don't support Obama because he is way too far left, and if he is too far right for other countries, that's too bad. I don't care who other countries think we should elect, I don't care for their socialism either. We haven't signed our sovereignty away to the United Nations. At least not yet. "

Again, Please reread my comment I never implied you didn't support Obama because of race. However when you state in part, We haven't signed our sovereignty away to the United Nations. At least not yet. " Review my comment to Freeport56. Bush has in fact done JUST THAT! "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 12:59 PM:

" For the love of country..,.would you right wingers google the North American Union?

There is NOTHING any of you can say that justifies what Bush did! The UN at this point CAN LEGALLY OCCUPY THIS COUNTRY! Don't take MY word on it Look it up! "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 1:18 PM:

" Dr. Faustus-

Our ships, embassys and other properties are U.S. Soil!

ADark1- Are you hearing me defend Bush? I am sad that ALL of our Nationally elected leaders have let us down. But, we have done nothing to fight back. Congress passes law, not the President (PoliSci 101), Thompson claims ignorance.

Don't forget tha Clintoon through Executive Order signed our humans rights over to the U.N. as well. The last two Presidents have been pieces of work. Both have failed in every major endeavor we have nedded.

Still, I do not believe the CHOSEN ONE, is the right man for the job. McCain is not not Bush no matter how many time the propaganda is repeated. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 28, 2008 1:18 PM:

" As I said I don't like all the things Bush has done, I just don't go off on a blinded by the light knee jerk hatred. I don't like this New World Order or whatever name it goes by. I know people who do think it would be a wonderful thing. They are convinced it will solve all problems. They are delusional.

Dr Faustus - Obama IS a socialist, there is no way to hide that fact, and I don't want some enlightened European telling me that I should like socialism. I don't want them telling me who should be president. They have their own problems to deal with, including fragile economics and an overloaded tax burden. That's what Obama wants to do for us. So it's really a simple vote decision: do you want a socialist for president with his own party in power in the Congress, or not? I will state again that I am not voting for McCain either. I don't want more big government, I want a president and a congress that will cut that back not bring more of it. I do not need legislators to tell me what to eat or drink or what books to read, or what kind of entertainment programs on television or radio I must watch.

Why do people think that just because it's run by the government it is wonderful? These people scare me. "

JustMy$.02 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 2:24 PM:

" ADark1 said;
'The UN at this point CAN LEGALLY OCCUPY THIS COUNTRY!'

Isnt it wonderful we have the second amendmant right to bare arms!! I gaurentee the absolute second any NON-AMERICAN force attempts to 'occupy' this country they will immediately regret the decission!

Good luck with that. "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 3:25 PM:

" Dr. Faustus-

We would react to foreign occupiers.....one round at a time!

Pass the Kool-Aid. "

russ wrote on Aug 28, 2008 7:58 PM:

" Faustus,

You play the Nazi card too frequently, seems to roll off your keyboard very easily. If one cannot win a debate with logic, use the Nazi word, or call your adversary a bad name.

Some fail to understand the fact that a democracy, like the United States, which has freely elected leaders, a country which has a Constitution and government with checks and balances, has no tyrants. "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 9:34 PM:

" russ-

they have only "wanna be's".

Republicans = July 4th

Democrats = April 15th
"RWR" "

cop105 wrote on Aug 28, 2008 10:04 PM:

" You leftist like to think that Obama has never seen a lobbyist in his life. Who do you think gives him all the money. Some of the more powerful lobbyist and unions are behind him. You think it's simply because they like him. There is no change with Obama. He will only bring the old corrupt Chicago politics to Washington. Look how many people loss their homes because of land deals he made in Chicago and made hundreds of thousands of dollars. "

Dr. Faustus wrote on Aug 28, 2008 11:55 PM:

" russ

I really can't continue holding your hand through these arguments.

The "Nazi card" was "pulled" once when I was referring to Nuremberg. Then mentioned again when I had to clarify that reference.

Tyrants are easily elected. In fact, most tyrants reach power through this method.

PPF

Obama is not a socialist. He simply isn't. Members of the Socialist Party in America will tell you this.

It's clear you've never read even one socialist author --save for Jack London perhaps. I'm always puzzled by people who don’t read books about the things they pass judgment on.

Obama is not a socialist. A socialist believes that a person is entitled to a piece of the wealth that he or she helps to create. This is the most simplified, basic, idiot-proof explanation I can think of.

I suspect Obama subscribes to Keynesian economic policies while McCain subscribes to neoliberal ones. Both schools are firmly pro-capitalist.

"I do not need legislators to tell me what to eat or drink or what books to read, or what kind of entertainment programs on television or radio I must watch."

This is paranoid nonsense.

Most black-listed books I've seen were banned by conservatives in the Bible belt - hardly a demographic I'd call socialist.

I wonder if you realize that the Republican mind has decayed to the point that people are refusing to vote for candidates because they appear to be too smart.

Cop105

Jesus, do cops have to kill every buzz?

Blaming Obama for the housing crush was a particularly nice touch. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 29, 2008 8:28 AM:

" I stand by my statement that Obama is a socialist. You don't like it - too bad, but it is true. Most of his policies are socialist oriented.

As for banning books, just try to get a conservative/libertarian speaker on a college campus these days. The lefties don't want anyone to hear any other line of thinking besides their own.

Obama IS a socialist. "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 29, 2008 9:13 AM:

" GO JOHN & SARAH "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 29, 2008 9:16 AM:

" GO JOHN & SARAH! "

freeport56 wrote on Aug 29, 2008 10:11 AM:

" PPF-

you are dead on buddy.

1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

-American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

Go john & Sarah "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 29, 2008 1:05 PM:

" I would not have believed it but I think I can now get excited about voting FOR someone. John McCain could possibly be a one term president and Sarah will be very well positioned to become our first woman president in 2012. How about that, conservative/libertarian, mom, very active lady, 5 children (she saw Obama's two and raised him three). And she eats mooseburgers, can Biden say that? And she's pretty good looking too - better looking than Biden, that's for sure.

Now we have some real promise, not the smoke & mirrors Obama promise.

McCain/Palin 2008! (I can't believe the flamingo is excited about this election now - two days ago I did not care!) "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 29, 2008 3:47 PM:

" PPF, you stated in part,

McCain/Palin 2008! (I can't believe the flamingo is excited about this election now - two days ago I did not care!) "

LOL too little too late, back in June I stated she'd be his best choice, however, looking at everything in totality..too little too late..so keep those feathers together...The legacy the Repubs have left I believe is unsurmountable to allowing them yet a third time to stick it to America. One more thing McCain will be a NO Term President! Even his own party is far from pleased... "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Aug 29, 2008 4:34 PM:

" How can Sarah be too late? Less than a week after we had Biden selected by the "rock star of change"? The timing was perfect, even the lefty media talked as much about Sarah as they did about Obama today.

We just cannot afford a socialist president, all you mcsame worriers ought to be worried about another Clinton/Carter debacle. "

ADark1 wrote on Aug 29, 2008 5:31 PM:

" PPF, you DO realize of course she is also in bed with those big bad OIL Cartels! Etc etc et al..

The eyes of a geriatric falling in lust with a former beauty queen in my opinion do NOT a vp make!

Furthermore, it was done as a pandering move as opposed to some real gunpowder he needs in his political warchest. Eveyone laughed at Obama's experience.. She is a heartbeat away from the Presidency. I doubt she's been properly vetted, and it's a MAJOR gamble.

If anything, her being a born again, pro - lifer and female is used to shore up an already splintered Republican party.He will BADLY need the RR to assist in even coming close.

Of course he mistakenly thinks he'll reap a slew of HRC supporters. Its an insult to women to do so. Plain and simple. Think again about Mc Cain's remarks about rather losing a war and winning an election. "

kevin wrote on Aug 29, 2008 6:13 PM:

" Let's see, recent polls show 27% of Hillary supporters will vote for McCain.

How many will vote for McCain with Sarah on the ticket?? "

Sandra wrote on Aug 29, 2008 6:22 PM:

" PPF, gotta say my interest is certainly sparked....While I do not agree on everything with Palin, I like her spunk, her willingness to fight for what she believes is right, her renegade attitude, etc.....and I kind of thiink a moose hunting beauty contestant sounds fun.... "

russ wrote on Aug 29, 2008 9:52 PM:

" Faustus,

Gotcha. One Nazi card is a Nazi card. Same as the race card. Either is unacceptable. Time for higher rhetoric.

So tyrants are electable and re-electable, 4 year term limits. 'Spain.

One man's tyrant is another's intellectual. Depends on your politics. "

Raven wrote on Aug 30, 2008 8:00 AM:

" russ....you're right...time for higher rhetoric...go ahead, show me some...I'll wait "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Aug 30, 2008 8:51 AM:

" There are lots of Republicans masquerading as 'Hillary supporters' who might vote for McCain/Palin.

But, the Republican myth of PUMAs voting for McCain is... just that... yet another Republican myth.

The Republican-enablers need their binkie.

~Ruff "

Sandra wrote on Aug 30, 2008 8:53 AM:

" " PPF, you DO realize of course she is also in bed with those big bad OIL Cartels! Etc etc et al.." By that statemant do you mean she's in bed with them by taxing the bejesus out of them and then giving a (I think it was) $1200.00 rebate back to every Alaskan citizen? Bet they argue a lot in bed..... "

John Richards wrote on Aug 30, 2008 12:15 PM:

" If I was a soldier stationed in Iraq, I would probably vote for Obama also, since Obama is more likely to bring me home earlier. Being away from home, and daily knowing you are in harms's way -- is not exactly a pleasant experience. Having served in Vietnam, I know whereof I speak. So, much as I empathize, we can't base our national policy on a rather biased group of voters. "

jwk wrote on Aug 31, 2008 9:38 AM:

" I can agree with Ruff on one of your points, Most Democrats are easy to hate, because they Hate Conservatives, The Military, Capitalism and AMerica!!
Let's have coffee together soon!! "

jwk wrote on Sep 1, 2008 3:27 AM:

" The Soldiers worth their own salt don't want to come home until the job is finished. Victory. Have relatives over there right now and that's the scoop. McCain will probably get 80 to 85% of the Military vote. Those Guys and Gals aren't boneheads drinking the Kool Aid and reading the Liberal Rags!! And who was it that Sent Our Guys to Nam?? Are you sure it wasn't George W Bush!!!! "

jwk wrote on Sep 1, 2008 7:42 AM:

" About OsamaObama's promises, you could put that belief in one hand and you know what in the other and we know which we will be filled first! "

kevin wrote on Sep 1, 2008 9:04 PM:

" Well one thing you can bet on, jwk, is that just like Bill Clinton's broken promise, we are NOT going to get a tax cut from B.O.

He WILL remove President Bush's tax cuts though... "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Sep 1, 2008 10:07 PM:

" ADark1 - "The eyes of a geriatric falling in lust with a former beauty queen"? Where do you get this stuff? I'm surprised at you, that's pretty low. Must be getting desperate, thinking about how Sarah Barracuda is livening up the election, and not the way you expected.

Why should it surprise you that her beliefs might be what I am excited about? Under no conditions would I vote for Obama or any other socialist lefty candidate. Sarah comes along, definitely not a lefty, and I shouldn't be excited because she's a good looking woman? Only plain people should run for office?

The change Obama promises is redistribution of wealth schemes, but those schemes never work the way lefties think they will. Obama says "I'll make money available to you" (insert whatever group he is pandering to today). What money is that? It's mine, and yours. What, you believe it all comes from rich people? Big mistake. The rich aren't going to pay for that! Their companies and corporations are just going to pass on the increased cost of doing business. Econ 101, Remedial. That increased cost of goods and services is a heavier burden on the poorest and least able to pay. Just think, WalMart's little price guy marking UP prices instead of down.

So don't go around telling everyone to relax, you're going to "make money available" for free or whatever. The Law of Unintended Consequences will bite you on the backside. And believe me, if my company has to pay higher taxes, I'll make sure the invoices raise high enough to cover it. Otherwise we will be out of business. Maybe then Obama will "make some money available to me", but I doubt it. "

Hear Ye wrote on Sep 1, 2008 11:52 PM:

" JWK-

"OsamaObama"? You're quite a classy and intelligent fella I see. "

Raven wrote on Sep 2, 2008 7:33 AM:

" actually kevin, Bush's tax cuts will remove themselves.....they were all designed with an expiration date "

Raven wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:05 AM:

" another lesson from econ 101, ppf, when your workers don't have enough money to buy your products, your company loses....Ford knew this when he promised his workers a living wage...

as the wealth gap widens, less people can afford anything.....and most of the corporations aren't paying any taxes anyway (2/3 according to the GAO) so there is nothing to pass on... "

jwk wrote on Sep 2, 2008 10:24 AM:

" Hearyeehaw, Ditto's to you My Lefist Liberal Friend!! : ) Actually I like OsamaBama better. It's more fitting!! "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:16 AM:

" OK Raven, so if corporations aren't paying any taxes, and the rich aren't paying any taxes, then where is the money going to come from for OsamaObama's socialism?

Point stands. If corporations and wealthy folks who own companies pay more taxes, the cost will be passed on to the consumer, whatever the price bracket. If employees can't buy products, then we go into a depression. But that's evidently what Obama wants. Then he can "make money available", as he says. More socialist smoke and mirrors.

Econ 101, Remedial. "

Raven wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:09 PM:

" The point is elementary my dear ppf, by making those non-paying corporations pay is one way.....by letting Shrub's tax cuts expire is another....

and Obama is no more a socialist than you are, ppf, trying to throw that label at him is a waste of time....brings back memories of being labeled as a 'commie' for backing Medicare in the 60s "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:24 PM:

" Point stands Raven. If the corporations pay taxes or more taxes, the cost will be passed on to the consumer. There is no getting around that. Reality does not change just because you don't want to recognize it.

Obama is most certainly a socialist, beginning with his redistribution of wealth schemes. It's not a label, it's a fact. "

anticommie wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:00 PM:

" Raven wrote on Sep 2, 2008 1:09 PM:

" The point is elementary my dear ppf, by making those non-paying corporations pay is one way.....by letting Shrub's tax cuts expire is another....

and Obama is no more a socialist than you are, ppf, trying to throw that label at him is a waste of time....brings back memories of being labeled as a 'commie' for backing Medicare in the 60s "

Raven,

Once again you write somthing I must respond to. Corporations (at least in California) pay several types of taxes. Do you even know how a corporation works? The business itself gets taxed on income first, then the shareholders have to pay their income taxes. So the "owner" gets taxed not once, but TWICE, just on income alone! Then there are payroll taxes, healthcare benefits, retirement, Social Security, the list goes on and on.

Remember not all corporations are huge like oil and car companies, many are small businesses that make enough to corporate and not have to pay a 29% personal employment tax like LLC's and other forms of business do. "

Raven wrote on Sep 2, 2008 2:54 PM:

" anti, a report from the General accounting office released a couple of weeks ago states that 2/3 of all corporations, small and large, in the United States pay no taxes.

take a look at the report and get back to me. "

antipc wrote on Sep 2, 2008 8:12 PM:

" Well, well, well; Why am I not surprised to see the tallest hogs (liberals) wanting to feed at the trough of corporate America? Unfortunately they drag their piglets behind them, (universal health care, global warming, childcare, prescription drugs & on & on & on). Claiming the whole time how we're not paying for it, but they have a plan to make the evil producers of wealth in America pay.

If the progressives feel so strongly, why don't they go out & start non-profit organizations to fund their favorite give-aways.... Answer... They either don't believe in their convictions or they are furthering their own cause. "

Raven wrote on Sep 2, 2008 11:10 PM:

" antipc...can I ask you one thing..what the heck are you talking about? "

antipc wrote on Sep 3, 2008 7:12 AM:

" Ravin, progressives like yourself believe it is perfectly acceptable to have corporations & the wealthy pay exorbitant taxes to pay for social programs that ALWAYS fail in their intent. Those paying the bulk of taxes are tired of providing hard earned money to pay for social experiments that never have & never will succeed. "

JWK wrote on Sep 3, 2008 7:47 AM:

" Here's a Noble concept, WHy don't people work hard and take care of their own matters and choose where they spend their hard earned money. Corporations create the jobs and hire many of America's hard working citizen's. AND How about the Government get their hands off my hard earned money, let me invest it in MY OWN ways and quit giving my money to those unwilling to work and who stand in lines waiting for hand outs. We are tired of funding their ridiculous Socialist programs..Lower taxes mean more Income into the economy and more revenue into the Government coffers. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Sep 3, 2008 8:12 AM:

" antipc and JWK - My sentiments exactly! Thank you. "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Sep 3, 2008 10:26 AM:

" jwk - Hmmm, the numbers from those cute federal spending pie charts have very small 'wedges' for money spent by the government on 'people standing in line for hand outs' unless seniors on Social Security are in the group so distained by the McScrooge crowd.

Much bigger 'wedges' are reserved for corporate welfare including many of those very same non-paying corporatons!!!

jwk likes the recipients of corporate welfare much better than poor people who 'stand in the street waiting for hand out'.

I wonder if jwk is likes the recipients of corporate welfare because they can just fly to their Corporate offices in the Bahamas in their corporate jets to get their hand outs.

The 'CEOs are Better than You' crowd sure are a champions of giving poor people 'wedgies' by making them pay taxes and then giving their money to rich people are they not?

What they have in mind for 'the least of these my brothers' is not exactly what they ever so sanctimoniously sing about at church now is it?

~Ruff "

freeport56 wrote on Sep 3, 2008 10:44 AM:

" I think is pretty funny that Ruff critizes corporation so much.

From his "I have worked for almost everybody" comments you would think that having providing him with a living he would be greatful. They would also have to provide healthcare (Med\Den), a 401k, and the brokerage for investments. That is unless the money is under the mattress? "

Ruff Limblog wrote on Sep 3, 2008 11:42 AM:

" jwk - Hmmm, the numbers from those cute federal spending pie charts have very small 'wedges' for money spent by the government on 'people standing in line for hand outs' unless seniors on Social Security are in the group so distained by the McScrooge crowd.

Much bigger 'wedges' are reserved for corporate welfare including many of those very same non-paying corporatons, jwd et all are so proud of !!!

It seems that jwk likes the recipients of corporate welfare much better than poor people who 'stand in the street waiting for hand out'.

I wonder if jwk is likes the recipients of corporate welfare because they can just fly in their corporate jets to their offices in the Bahamas in their corporate jets to get their hand outs.

The 'CEOs are Better than You' crowd sure are champions of giving poor people 'wedgies' by making them pay taxes and then giving their tax money out to rich people on corporate welfare are they not?

What they have in mind for 'the least of these my brothers' is not exactly what they ever so sanctimoniously sing about at church now is it?

~Ruff "

Raven wrote on Sep 3, 2008 5:20 PM:

" maybe if some of those corporations would pay taxes, the rest of us might not have to shoulder so much of the burden....and I would question the always fail part.....head start seems to be a roaring success....Medicare has provided benefits to millions, regardless of their income....the GI bill was an enormous success...the marshall plan....the space program.... "

cab e-girl wrote on Sep 3, 2008 6:36 PM:

" Raven- I am pretty clear on what antipc is saying. Do you really need a translator? If so maybe I can help. He is tired of corrupt politicians taking money from his, my and your family to fund ridiculous social programs that do not work and will never work.

Many of us struggling Americans work very hard to educate, cloth, feed, insure and care for our children. For that we are constantly being told we don't do enough. I for one would like to direct where my contributions go, not some sleezy politician who has had his palm greased by biased lobbyists. "

Raven wrote on Sep 3, 2008 8:43 PM:

" and I am simply asking what programs he is talking about...it is one thing to make a blanket statement that all these programs dont work and never will...another to give example, specific examples of which programs he is talking about.....and i didn't see any mention about corrupt politicians and again who are these folks, show me the corruption, I am opposed to corruption in any party so let's name them and root them out...

and if you are making a contribution, you do get to decide where it goes.....unless you are advocating that people be allowed to select what part of the government their taxes can be used for... "

russ wrote on Sep 3, 2008 9:00 PM:

" Ruff,

Please tell me with fact and precision what you mean by corporate welfare.

To me that term, "corporate welfare", screams of ignorance, from socialists, of how the world and the US economy actually works. "

cab e-girl wrote on Sep 3, 2008 9:08 PM:

" Well for starters, the federal government gave Alaska the money for a bridge to nowhere. Had it not been for Sarah Palin giving it back, it would have been a total waste of money. A big one is free medical care for everyone which is one the left insists on implementing. Sorry, but I don't want my medical treatment distributed by a government agency (check your local DMV or Post Office if you want government involved there), and I don't want to foot the bill for millions of illegal aliens. Tax them when they come to our country to work or tax their employers who are underpaying them, but don't tax me for their health care. I expect to pay for the elderly's health care because they have paid into the medicare system for years, and have earned that right. I expect to pay for veterans health care, because they have earned it as well. Really it's a matter of checking the Federal budget. More money is spent on the Health and Welfare than any other department (almost $700 Billion). Second at $620 Billion is Social Security, that system is broken. I would like the option to stop paying into Social Security and fund my own retirement. It is a failure. Should I go on? "

Raven wrote on Sep 4, 2008 4:14 AM:

" cab e girl.....Sarah was firmly in favor of the bridge until it became a laughing stock and worked hard while mayor to secure earmarks for her town...

as far as 'free' medical care for everyone, no one has advocated that...what they want is universal medical care...no candidate on either said has said people wouldnt be asked to pay for the care...

as for government medical care, Medicare has been around for a couple of years now and seems to be working fine for millions of our elder citizens..paid for by our medicare taxes.....while veterans care which you don't mind paying for is a joke..inadequate and slow..

and go ahead and fund your own retirement....but don't come asking for help when you lose money...how much would you have lost in the latest series of market downturns "

antipc wrote on Sep 4, 2008 7:30 AM:

" Since Ravin' refuses to see the government waste & failures at all levels, let’s focus on the taxpayer plight.

I pay income taxes, corporate taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, fuel taxes, & more. All of this adds up to very close to 50% of my gross income. How much of the money that I earn would enough for you? 60%, 70%... Progressives never want to include themselves when it comes to the taxman. Give me one good reason I should willing give up that much of my income. I will never receive any benefits that come close to what I've contributed.

So please include yourself before you ask me for more. "

jwk wrote on Sep 4, 2008 7:41 AM:

" Corporate Welfare? Is that he best you got?? Econ 1A, Corporations create the jobs, employe the people and grow the economy. Most ALL of us work or have worked for one in our lifetime. The Real Welfare recipients are "The Union Leaders" and alot of Government employees. They get far more than they're worth and can never get fired for their lack of performance. I'd rather give my money to Microsoft, Dell, Wal-Mart, Chevron, etc; than all these Socialist programs for the Illegals, Unemployed Lazy Welfare recipients, alcoholics and Drug addicts. At least we get something (a Product) for our dollars with the Corp's. "

Sandra wrote on Sep 4, 2008 9:51 AM:

" antipc,
Try being a small business owner or being self employed.... My taxes, including social security comes to 55% of the money I make. This is not including Medical insurance, or other insurance needed to stay in business....add all that in and I would guess I get to use about 35%....I am wrung dry...no blood left in this turnip.
I am sick to death of paying for those who use social program because of laziness and because they know how to work the system. I used to work with a woman who was on housing, and probablyy still is (we are private contractors). A divorced mom, who got child support. She made what I made. She had her rent almost completely subsidized, had her boyfriend living with her.... Went to mexico once a year to visit family.... Had plastic surgery done to reduce her thighs and increase her bust, was buying a house in Mexico, was a shoe fanatic, had a new car....and I was helping subsidize her rent....I would expect she is not declaring any of her income, if she was, she would not qualify for housing. So I doubt she is paying any taxes either.... How many people are there like her draining our country dry?
Yet some are advocating we increase this bureacracy so more people can take advantage. Yeah, that's a GREAT idea..... "

cab e-girl wrote on Sep 4, 2008 11:26 AM:

" Raven- I have planned my retirement with the "notion" that there will be no social security when I retire. I would never come crying to the government for my own stupidity. You see, I see my future as my own responsibility. I don't wish to burden my country and I don't wish to burden my children. It's a simple matter of personal responsibility. You ought to try it some times. I find it liberating! "

cab e-girl wrote on Sep 4, 2008 11:37 AM:

" And Raven- About veterans medical care. My husband is formal military, many of our friends are formal military. Veterans care is not as you suggest a "joke." Maybe you have had a bad experience, maybe there needs to be fixes. The problem is that our medical care system is a joke. Lawyers have made insurance rates outrageous for doctors, illegal aliens expect free medical care, illegal aliens (even wealthy illegal aliens) are having children at our expense. My sister-in-law is an obstetric nurse in Fremont. She says many, many Indian aliens drive their wives to the hospital in their Mercedes while you and I pick up the tab. "

Raven wrote on Sep 4, 2008 7:47 PM:

" so many to choose from so little time...The GAO is saying veterans care is inadequate, cab-e, not just me...did you see the pictures of the ward at Walter Reed....and I am former military myself...

as for your sister...she runs out into the parking lot and checks them and if they are legal immigrants, what does it matter what kind of car they drive?

and you will turn down the Social Security and medicare when it comes your way?

antipc...I am not sure if I should be happy or sad that you aren't one of the 2/3 of American corporation who didn't pay taxes....maybe if more of the did your burden wouldn't be so heavy...and I am including myself among those tax payers....I fully expect to pay for not only the services I receive but the services that help make this country better.....I am working to take care of my own retirement but am glad none the less there is a safety for those who may not be able to....

and Sandra...what did you about this woman.....if she was fraudulent in securing the rent subsidy did you report her?.... "

cab e-girl wrote on Sep 4, 2008 8:37 PM:

" Raven- My sister-in-law has access to a medical chart and knows who's paying the bill. She knows if they are legal citizens from the chart, and someone has to wheel these women out to their cars after the babies are born. No big secret as to the make and model of these cars.

As to Walter Reed, if they are not treating our injured soldiers with the very best care shame on them. It should be corrected. "

cab e-girl wrote on Sep 4, 2008 8:42 PM:

" As far as Social Security and Medicare will I turn it down? Can't say for sure until the time comes. The government has received 15% of my income and 15% of my husbands income throughout our lives for these two services, I think we have earned the right to collect both services. We've paid for them. "

antipc wrote on Sep 4, 2008 8:48 PM:

" Nice try Ravin', but you failed to annouce you tax burden.... Again I take no services, unlike you. "

Raven wrote on Sep 4, 2008 9:44 PM:

" gee...all my time among medicos and I have never seen citizenship on any medical chart I have seen...and anti.....exactly what services do you know I take?....I called an ER nurse I know at kaiser in Vallejo and she says that just ask one thing is asked..are they members?...nothing about citizenship on their forms....just whether they can pay or not.....

as for my tax burden...I have managed to get it down to about 42 percent gross.....but such is life...but exactly what services do you 'know' that I am taking.....please tell...I might see one or two I haven't tried yet....

cab-e-girl, take a look at the washington post, time, newsweek and US news and world report for plenty of stories about walter reed.....summer of 2007.....and the hearings held about the conditions in the VA and military health care systems in general... "

sandra wrote on Sep 4, 2008 11:45 PM:

" Gee Raven,,,do you think reporting her would of solved the problem?...I am sure she was the ONLY one doing this. I bet if I reported her everything would be solved. Ya think? She certainly has a problem But she is a symptom of the real problem The real problem is with a system wrought with bureacracy that is self-perpetuating. I bet I could report her, and you know what? I also bet nothing would happen. Her case worker is my client, and he saw that she was making what I was making. He knows I am not on housing...yet she gets that subsidy every month. Raven, THE SYSTEM DOES NOT CARE. It is all about what I can get for me, not about what I can do to help my country. I think Obama will perpetuate this, not fix it. But you think if I turned into BIG BROTHER and reported her everything would be better? "

MarkMathews wrote on Sep 13, 2008 9:08 PM:

" I sure do wish that citizenship WAS on theose forms you non-miltary civilians have to fill out when you go to Kaiser or Queen of the Valley... People who ought not be here should be refused all but life threatening issues; then roundly DEPORTED. Yo quierro La Migra! "

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