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Breaking bread, studying Islam
Napa women's group forms to spread information, good deeds
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imgSarah Lodhi, 19, center, and Shaheeda Yasin, 24, of Vallejo, get ready to host their first event of the Female Islamic Group, or FIG, for the community in honor of Gharib Nawaz, a man known to feed the poor and helped the oppressed. Maryam Lodhi, 12, at left, listens to her sister talk at the entrance of the kitchen of the community room at the Rohlffs Memorial Manor, a senior residency complex. Lianne Milton/Register | Buy photos -
imgBibi Khadija Locks, center, welcomes Joumana Shweiky, right, during an event, hosted by Locks and the Female Islamic Group, or FIG, for the community in honor of Gharib Nawaz, a man known to feed the poor and helped the oppressed. Lianne Milton/Register | Buy photos -
imgMunnaza Malik, center, helps Shahnaz Lodhi, right, at the buffet table during an event hosted by the Female Islamic Group, or FIG, at the Rohlffs Memorial Manor senior community room. The event honors Gharib Nawaz, a man known to feed the poor and helped the oppressed. Lianne Milton/Register | Buy photos
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CommentAs men and women brought out dishes of couscous with lamb, hummus, pita bread, olives and baklava, Omar Salem stood in the community room of Rohlffs Manor in Napa and lectured the faithful on Gharib Nawaz, a friend of the poor and the friendless revered in the Islamic world.
“We’re here to give to people,” Salem, a volunteer chaplain at Napa State Hospital, told the four dozen people gathered at Rohlffs, a senior apartment complex north of Napa. Charity does not only mean to give money, he said, as he discussed the life and teachings of Nawaz, a Persian spiritual leader who was born in the 12th century. People need to be involved.
“We’re here to give to people,” Salem, a volunteer chaplain at Napa State Hospital, told the four dozen people gathered at Rohlffs, a senior apartment complex north of Napa. Charity does not only mean to give money, he said, as he discussed the life and teachings of Nawaz, a Persian spiritual leader who was born in the 12th century. People need to be involved.
“Don’t just talk. Go out there,” Salem, 22, told the men and women from Napa, Pope Valley, Sonoma and elsewhere.
The event last weekend was the first community function organized by Napa’s Female Islamic Group, an informal group of a half-dozen Muslim women of all ages and diverse backgrounds.
The event last weekend was the first community function organized by Napa’s Female Islamic Group, an informal group of a half-dozen Muslim women of all ages and diverse backgrounds.
Bibi Khadija Locks, who moved to Napa from Southern California four years ago, helped form FIG in part to draw out women from Napa’s Islamic community.
Other members include 20-year-old Maya Shweiky, a 2006 Vintage High School graduate. Her parents, who are from Syria, operate a catering business.
Other members include 20-year-old Maya Shweiky, a 2006 Vintage High School graduate. Her parents, who are from Syria, operate a catering business.
Napa Valley College students Shaheeda Yasin, 24, of Vallejo, a psychology major, and Shara Lodhi, 19, a 2007 Vintage High graduate, who wants to become a nurse, are also members of the group.
Joumana Shweiky, Maya’s mother, said she is grateful for FIG for giving her daughter guidance.
For Maya Shweiky, FIG’s group discussions are an opportunity to study Islam as well as other religions. While Salem said his religion has never been an issue, Shweiky said after Sept. 11 she and her siblings had to cope with “terrorist jokes” from classmates.
Shweiky, who moved from St. Helena to Napa eight years ago, used to brush the comments aside with a “OK, sure, dude.”
In the west there are many misconceptions about Islam, Shweiky said. Most importantly, he said, Islam does not teach “killing people in the name of God.”
“Nothing in the Koran says that,” Shweiky said.
The number of Muslims continues to grow in Napa, as in the rest of the United States. Salem, a 2004 New Technology High School graduate who joined the Napa Police Department officer in January, recalled there were fewer than a dozen Islamic families in the area when he was growing up in Napa and American Canyon.
There are more than 60 families now, he said.
Khadija Locks hopes people will learn about more Islam.
“Napa has got to know Muslims are real people,” she said. “When they know, they’ll love us.”
Joumana Shweiky, Maya’s mother, said she is grateful for FIG for giving her daughter guidance.
For Maya Shweiky, FIG’s group discussions are an opportunity to study Islam as well as other religions. While Salem said his religion has never been an issue, Shweiky said after Sept. 11 she and her siblings had to cope with “terrorist jokes” from classmates.
Shweiky, who moved from St. Helena to Napa eight years ago, used to brush the comments aside with a “OK, sure, dude.”
In the west there are many misconceptions about Islam, Shweiky said. Most importantly, he said, Islam does not teach “killing people in the name of God.”
“Nothing in the Koran says that,” Shweiky said.
The number of Muslims continues to grow in Napa, as in the rest of the United States. Salem, a 2004 New Technology High School graduate who joined the Napa Police Department officer in January, recalled there were fewer than a dozen Islamic families in the area when he was growing up in Napa and American Canyon.
There are more than 60 families now, he said.
Khadija Locks hopes people will learn about more Islam.
“Napa has got to know Muslims are real people,” she said. “When they know, they’ll love us.”
kbf wrote on Jul 20, 2008 10:34 AM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 20, 2008 10:44 AM:
“Nothing in the Koran says that,” Shweiky said.)
Interesting...it seems to me that more people are confused about this in the EAST (if indeed you believe tha statement). Aparently we have Exegetical gymnastics happening in the muli-purpose room at Rohlffs.
. "
vocal-de-local wrote on Jul 20, 2008 11:56 AM:
Farmgirl wrote on Jul 20, 2008 1:02 PM:
pharper wrote on Jul 20, 2008 3:58 PM:
It isn't like Christianity is all love and roses either, though. There are two sides to everything. Maybe the Koran does talk about killing all infidels (nonbelievers), but the Bible advocates killing people who disobey their parents (uh, like every teenager in the world, at one point) and has been used to discriminate against millions of people-- blacks, Indians, Native Americans, and homosexuals, to name a few—and these are just the things I can think of off the top of my head. Ever heard of the Crusades? That was a CHRISTIAN holy war. Most people (fortunately) don't take every word in the Bible literally these days, though, and it's much the same with most Muslims--but we can't say all, because of course, some Christians do take the Bible literally, and some Muslims do take the Koran literally. Still, though--people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.
I'm ashamed that people in my town would turn such a nice story into a way to discriminate against other peoples' beliefs. "
glenroy wrote on Jul 20, 2008 4:44 PM:
You might not have noticed but the current land of Israel was for centuries a Judo/Christian land before Muslim hordes convinced a certain percentage of the population to convert…the rest they chopped their heads off…I’m sure a fairly persuasive method for the faint of heart. Perhaps a little perspective….
The Crusaders had every bit of right to fight Muslim hordes who by then had invaded Spain, Greece, Italy, Turkey and the Balkans…..that fact is that if it weren’t for the Crusaders we could very well be living in the modern stone ages too.
As for killing parents…hardly a Christian commandment….maybe you also failed to notice as few years back they added the New Testament….
Go farmgal and valley man…the only peace from this religion is strickly meta.... "
glenroy wrote on Jul 20, 2008 5:05 PM:
The website posted above has a lot of support from converted Muslims….who to this day risk losing the head over all this. The site is one of the very few that simply posts articles related to the thousands of atrocities leading to tens of thousands who perish annually merely because they are not Muslim and for no other reason than that…which is why the Crusaders crusaded…
All this is not to say these young woman should not have a dialogue with whomever wishes to listen to an extraordinarily sanitized version of their religion…but if you know anything about Islam the picture itself speaks 100,000 words….and few of those words are inspiring relative to coexistence. "
savenapa wrote on Jul 20, 2008 5:15 PM:
Raven wrote on Jul 20, 2008 5:32 PM:
Course I am not holding out a lot of hope for this given the success we have in dealing with the Christian extremists in this country. "
funnyme wrote on Jul 20, 2008 6:00 PM:
What is this? Prepare to "embrace" Islam?
Thanks, but no thanks. I am just not "comfortable" right now to "reach out" (that was pc enough, wasn't it?).
It goes both ways.
Get to know Christianity and Judeism FIRST (there's a chance you'll hopefully convert then), and then come and talk to us.
Right now the odds don't look good, given the fact that most terrorists are radical islam followers.
I am sure there are huge differences between muslims, just like there are between christians, jehova witnesses, catholics, adventists, protestants, etc... I know, I know, they are people too! "
BeLove wrote on Jul 20, 2008 7:20 PM:
Since my mother converted to Islam many years ago, I have met dozens of her friends from many nations and cultures, including Muslims from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Iran, and other American converts like Mom. Everyone I have met has been kind, compassionate, and devout. I have witnessed many acts of love and no acts of violence among the Muslims I have met.
Although the religion of Islam is not for me, I support every person's right to find and follow a spiritual path that provides the most meaning and peace for that person. I believe that is one of the many beautiful values upon which America was founded.
I feel deeply saddened that many people used the opportunity presented by the article to vent their hateful attitudes and prejudicial ideas. There are certainly followers of Islam who have interpreted the tenets of their religion in such a way as to justify atrocious acts, just as there are people in other religions who use their religious beliefs to perpetuate hate and violence.
The possibility of peace in the world is enhanced by cross cultural dialogue, one of the aims of the party at Rolffs Manor. The possibility of peace in the world is threatened by prejudice and closed minds. I invite everyone who is truly interested in supporting a movement toward greater peace and harmony among humans to engage in conversations which open doors to increased understanding. "
Farmgirl wrote on Jul 20, 2008 7:33 PM:
The people of Lebanon were very open minded and accepting of all religions including Islam. The Christians and Muslims were friends - until the Muslims took over Lebanon and then no Christian had Muslim friends because the Muslims will not turn against other Muslims. Read Because They Hate by Brigitte Gabriel. I am even more suspicious of these women when they say islam does not teach killing in the name of God. It does teach to kill infidels - and that's all of us non muslims. Have you heard of a wolf in sheep's clothing. It has nothing to do with acceptance and everything to do with self preservation in our country. "
pharper wrote on Jul 20, 2008 7:42 PM:
Right, most terrorists are radical Islam followers-- most Islam followers are not terrorists. It is a small minority, and it is ignorant and close-minded to declare the entire religion a front for terrorism. How embarrassing that I live in a town where people can't think outside their own little box.
And, savenapa? Yeah, defending someone else's beliefs--I'm not religious--doesn't make me an apologist. I would probably say the same thing if this were an article on a Christian church group that has set out to spread awareness of their religion--not that it needs to--and radical Muslims were attempting to slander it. Funny, though, I've never seen that happen--it's so many of the "good Christians" who seem to be unable to accept others.
Being so unable to accept others is, I'm sure, a very common theme in the Bible, as that's what I’m seeing in this forum from its followers. "
napa_mom wrote on Jul 20, 2008 8:52 PM:
I feel the same way. I find it ironic for an area that is known for its hospitality to guests, some of the locals are quick to shut out any mention of diversity. Sure, we will take your TOT and the Billions of dollars you spend enriching our quality of life, but if you are different in any way, shape, form, or belief system, we will shun you and make a mockery of you.
To the Christians, I would like to point out a poignant quote by Thomas Jefferson:
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Notes on Virginia, 1782
I am truly embarrassed to read this on the internet, for the entire world to see. Nice representation of our community. "
Hear Ye wrote on Jul 20, 2008 9:09 PM:
I would of loved to have been there, if for nothing else, the food. Yum! "
John Richards wrote on Jul 20, 2008 9:16 PM:
Those who drag up bad things done by some Christians a thousand years ago should learn to live in the present. "
Rocco wrote on Jul 20, 2008 9:27 PM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 20, 2008 9:42 PM:
I would add that accepting people is necessary and should be practiced, however acceptance of certain practices, teachings, etc. are not on the same level. You do not accept many teachings or practices, nor do I. If MANBLA decided to recruit one of your children I'm sure you would rightly object. And yes, I would still dialog with and show a certain amount of universal respect to supporters of MANBLA. Yet,I would be required to tear down the concept for conscience sake.
I have many friends that I accept for who they are (including Muslems), yet we disagree on particularities.
The "discrimination" cry is too easy and it is unbecoming. "
Raven wrote on Jul 20, 2008 10:58 PM:
ThreeMap wrote on Jul 20, 2008 11:31 PM:
I am a white, Christian woman who feels blessed to have Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc in my circle of friends. Hearing about their respective beliefs, struggles and practices has made me more accepting and respectful of their religions as well as (oddly) more solid in my own.
Most of us in the world practice our religion as "moderates" - it's the extremists of any religion, be it Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc, that make a bad name for the rest of their religion's followers - I certainly would not want anyone to judge me based on some of the horrible things that have been done in Christian history by extremists.
For those who are fearful and suspicious of Muslims, I wish you could meet some. Spend some time with them and you will realize that they are just like you and me - they have families and jobs and mortgage payments and are just trying to get by day to day, just like us. We need to focus on our similarities, not our differences.
PS - Kudos to Kerana Todorov for an article that tries to associate something good with Islam for a change. It's unfortunate that the only picture was of these young women with their headdresses on - this choice of picture just further points out differences between "us" and "them" to those who are struggling with their feelings on Muslims. Most Muslims in our community do wear western clothes, at least most of the time. "
napapeace wrote on Jul 21, 2008 12:31 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 3:39 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 6:32 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 6:41 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 6:55 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 7:11 AM:
thats how people were endoctrinated to think that god was killed by a man with a stick!(the cross and spear) or god commited suicide. either way if you dont believe in trinity, you should look up the word begotton. how can god be tempted by the devil, go to hell for 3 days or pray to himself? and who can account for the dozens of biblical errors and contradictions? history can the hands of men in gods revalations.
muslims believe in all the prophets and dont associate partners with god, or sons or anything. he is one and unique, eternal and there is absolutly nothing like god.
we dont think we were created in the image of god, he cant be humanised, we were giving some of his attributes yes but god is not like a human.
the quran protects and preserves the previous revelations in the bible, it protects the honor of jesus christ the messiah peace be upon him and his noble mother mary who the women in that picture carry her banner and yet how many scoff at them for there head scarf while they hand from there necks and walls images of mary wearing the same thing. just think for your self. predjudice = pre judging
have any of you read a biography of the prophet muhammad? quran? or are you judging us with your own desires? "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 7:21 AM:
hypothetically because you dont believe this
if you did your research and found that the quran is the final revelation from god, the prophet muhamad may peace and blessings of god be upon him was the final messenger and prophet. would you follow the message, would you submit to the will of god if that was true???? thats the question,
linguistics......
islam=peace, submission, purity
muslim= one who submits his will to the will of god.
and ps....to the writer reffering to lebanon, just pull your feet out of your mouth because thats completly rediculus and ignorant. islam came to lebanon and gave the people the freedom to choose between islam, jeudiasm, christiany or what ever they choose including nothing. so you can write and think what you want but you cant change history, and reality. that was some unreality based wishfull thinking. and if you are a christian lebaneese you should do your own research and see for your self
and please remember that you cant kill god. let alone with a stick. please wake up people. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 8:04 AM:
funnyme wrote on Jul 21, 2008 8:58 AM:
It didn't take you long to come out with "your interpretation".
"...allah doesnt command killing them. allah commaded the muslims to defend themselves against opressors..."
Oppresion: to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power.
Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick with MY GOD, MY BELIEFS.
Prejudice - unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
Key word: unreasonable.
We, in America counted more than 3000 dead people on 9-11. That's enough reasons not to be unreasonable. "
Rocco wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:19 AM:
By blaming the present horrors in the Middle East on Judeo Christian armies (I believe there are many Muslims currently serving in our armed forces.) and targeting Christians as responsible for the “worst genocides in human history,” did you actually think you were smoothing over any ruffled feathers? Claiming to honor Christ as a prophet and then trashing every Christian doctrine was a nice touch too. Can’t we agree that many “faith groups” have perpetuated heinous crimes against humanity in the past and then focus on what’s now presently happening globally?
Am I guilty of judging today’s Muslims by my “own desires?” Yes! I desire safe passage to any corner of the planet that I choose to visit… Can’t do it. I desire to not have to worry about my children suffering at the hand of an Islamic extremist as they merely live out their lives…Ain’t happening. I desire to read today’s newspaper and not see some armed conflict by Muslims that can’t get along with their neighbors…I’m dreaming! To say that anybody on this planet today fears “Christian Fundamentalists” in the same way is laughable. James Dobson may be a bit scary at times, but PLEASE! If today’s Christian church were behaving this badly there would be an immediate expectation by the world to shape up or ship out. For some reason Muslims get a pass and I can’t figure it out. Maybe we’re all just afraid. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:47 AM:
how about ''the targeting of civilian non combatants for political, religious, financial or ANY means" does anyone disagree?
does anyone know that there was a mosqe in the twin towers, does anyone know that 1 out of every 10 people that died in those buildings were muslim?
so what about using radio active depleted uranium on whole nations. the effect of which makes the land and water there completley unuseable and unliveable for probably billions of years.we are using weapons of mass destruction on entire civillian populations and destroying the earth all for financial and political gains that only the elites bennifit from. is that not terrorism. hiroshima and nagasaki?slavery? the native americans? kkk? ect.ect. we ''america'' has bombed well over 50 countries since ww2 in the name of democracy.
muslim bogeymen didnt pass the patiot act desacrating our constituion and reducing our liberty. they arent crashing our economy into a depression. they arent taking funding away from schools.they didnt turn the republic of america into an empire. they didnt put bush into the white house in 2000 when he wasnt even elected. and we have the nerve to talk about demacracy. dont think for one minute that bush is not smart. he is the best actor in america by far. he is the son of a man who led the cia for decades and he is well trained. we cant blame it on bush and his lack of intellignce , only our selves. cause we stood by and let it happen. listen to bush's speeches when he was the governer. he was extreamly elloquent. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 10:07 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 10:25 AM:
is not our country america a ''judao chrisian society''? correct me if im wrong but if it is then the army of that country has killed over 1,000,000 civilians in iraq and afghanistan. and i support our troops, get them out of there, bring them home safe, and stop the lose of life on both sides for absolutly no reason. do you know 70% of our troops from the first gulf war are permenantly disabled from d.u.?radiation poisioning. did you know that before the current war bagdad was radio active 1,000's of times above a level sutable for humans to live, from the first war.?that was the fastest military victory in the history of wars. so what is the radiation level now? astronomical!
please please explain to me this....i merly stated know chrisian doctrine.
exapmle.....
-trinity , three in one....father son holy spirit, so if you believe that then jesus is god. and he prayed to him self, went to hell for three days, didnt know when the fig tree was ripe, and was killed by a roman man with a stick. that is simply stating the doctrine in a differnt way mabey but isnt it what christians believe. i would know cause i was christian. if stating the doctrine itself is trashing it then there must be something fundimentally wrong with the doctrine?
personally i follow the way of the prophet abraham peace be upon him,to reconize and worshop god alone with no partners, he was neither a jew or chritian but one who submitted his self to the will of god. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 10:52 AM:
and the oil companies, and military industrial complex , and other corperate ellites would not have made the trillions more they made since 911 if it wasnt for those x cia bogeymen that no one can find? little do we learn from vietnam. was there ever a reason to go to vietnam?besides making money, the gulf of tonkin ring a bell, the warning of kennedy right before he was killed mean anything to anyone? dropping bombs on peoples heads is just as much of a crime as 911 and i condem them both, neither in my name. and i refuse to be tricked or scared of bogeymen anywere. what happend to the only thing we have to fear is fear itself? "
funnyme wrote on Jul 21, 2008 11:01 AM:
I didn't translate anything from anywhere, all I did is "copy and paste" YOUR OWN WORDS...
9-11 was very much real. It still is. A terrorist attack by terrorist who worship "the religion of peace"...go figure.
Talking about bias and misinformed.
I get my news and my facts not from the corporate, bias, liberal media but from news crews from all over the globe.
Sorry samieh, but wikipedia and youtube are not source of facts.
If NVR allows me to give you my sources of information I'll be more than happy to do so. "
Reality Check wrote on Jul 21, 2008 11:22 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 12:18 PM:
and for all those out there who think that bush is not intelligent and mc cain or obama will do better let me explain something that 10 phd's in political science wont teach you.
"politics is the art of making the people believe they are in power when in fact they have none"
the thing we should be afraid of is the merging of federal and corperate power combined with the lose of liberties. or the upcoming depression. not a n ex cia agent living in a cave thats been ln dialossis for over a decade. if he is even alive. the real terrorists have highjacked parts of our goverment right here. and are highjacking the worlds resources.
what about the school of the americas? trained almost every south and central amercian dictator for the past decades on how to torcher and terrorize there civilion populations.
how aobut bohemian grove ? look it up on youtube?
the bilderburger group?
cfr?
go read about them online do some homework before we lose our freedom?
go and see who masters of terror are.
google alex jones and listen to him.
im tired of fellow americans being scared into mindless reaction. terrorizing people in the middle east is not the solution.
as americans we now have no moral high ground to speak about terrorism.
and bringing democrocy to iraq! no one tried to help the people in the congo, rawanda or the other places recently that millions of people were slaughtered. "
jt wrote on Jul 21, 2008 1:40 PM:
fig wrote on Jul 21, 2008 3:51 PM:
How did all of this evolve from a simple article about a peaceful gathering?
This is getting to be too much.
I am a member of FIG and all we wanted to accomplish by having the get together was to bring the community together. It seems as though we have done the opposite in some ways.
We do not want to sit here and argue with your beliefs. That isn't what we intended. We just wanted to show Napa that we are here, and we are peaceful. Our gathering was very peaceful in itself. We got together, had a very short speech, enjoyed the company and food, and donated a bunch of extra food to the South Napa Homeless Shelter. How did all these negative comments derive from our gathering taking place? How were we not peaceful? How were we not giving?
It's very frustrating to be a Muslim and have so many misconceptions about you. We really are kind and peaceful people. That's all we wanted our community to know. That's the message we were trying to send.
Sure there are some terrorists that call themselves Muslims...the radicals. There are radicals in every religion as I'm sure most of you are completely aware of. They represent their so called religion in a very negative way. Let's not give into that. I don't discriminate against any religion and I just hope we can see a day where everyone does the same.
I ask you, pease don't discriminate against us. We don't deserve that. It's the radicals you are all referring to. And we are scared of them too!
Please, let's try and find some peace. "
Hear Ye wrote on Jul 21, 2008 5:54 PM:
Don't mind most of these comments. It's the same people who spew negativity to virtually all articles the paper publishes that don't fit into their small box. It's just a very vocal minority. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 6:45 PM:
and for all those out there who think that bush is not intelligent and mc cain or obama will do better let me explain something that 10 phd's degrees in political science wont teach you.
"politics is the art of making the people believe they are in power when in fact they have none"
the thing we should be afraid of is the merging of federal and corperate power combined with the lose of liberties. or the upcoming depression. not a n ex cia agent living in a cave thats been on dialossis for over a decade. if he is even alive. the real terrorists have highjacked parts of our goverment right here. and are highjacking the worlds resources.
what about the school of the americas? trained almost every south and central amercian dictator for the past decades on how to torcher and terrorize there civilion populations.
how aobut bohemian grove ? look it up on youtube?
the bilderburger group?
cfr?
go read about them online do some homework before we lose our freedom?
go and see who masters of terror are.
google alex jones and listen to him.
im tired of fellow americans being scared into mindless reaction. terrorizing people in the middle east is not the solution.
as americans we now have no moral high ground to speak about terrorism.
and bringing democrocy to iraq! no one tried to help the people in the congo, rawanda or the other places recently that millions of people were slaughtered. "
funnyme wrote on Jul 21, 2008 6:50 PM:
Taken from the NVR story:
"...“Don’t just talk. Go out there,” Salem, 22, told the men and women from Napa, Pope Valley, Sonoma and elsewhere..."
I wonder if you or anyone from the muslim community would like to come to Bloggermania II. That would be a good way to get to know you.
Hear Ye,
Are you coming to BMII as well? "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 21, 2008 7:03 PM:
fig wrote on Jul 21, 2008 7:12 PM:
i would love to attend bloggermania 2. and i'm sure there are many other muslims that would like to do so as well. i haven't been to one before..don't know if there are regular meetings or whatnot..but i would be very interested.
i agree that it would be a great way for everyone to get to know each other.
thanks for that suggestion. "
Hear Ye wrote on Jul 21, 2008 7:40 PM:
I may try to make it to the next Bloggermania. I certainly like the idea of meeting everyone in person or should I say seeing how far off I am in how I imagine different people looking. "
funnyme wrote on Jul 21, 2008 8:14 PM:
Paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 22, 2008 7:00 AM:
Those who have interpreted it differently are incorrect. Their opinions no more reflect the teaching of Islam than yours do. They’re research is no more in depth. And their argument no more convincing.
Because I'll tell you what I see... I see a Middle East that has been occupied by British and America forces since 1924. I see lines in the sand dividing nation states which were drawn by the English not by the people of that region. I see democratically elected governments overthrown by military dictators who are puppets of the West. I see children in madrasas learning hatred and violence from text books that were written at the University of Nabraska and distributed by the US Military. I see radical ideologies like Al Qaeda and the Taliban who were both created by the US to fight communism. I see the most violent third-world throwbacks running Saudi Arabia because they were put in power by the British even though a principality is a uniquely European notion and foreign to Islamic government. I see a military occupation of Iraq that has gone on for years, and was based on nothing. And I hear the drums for war against Iran, and Pakistan. "
Paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 22, 2008 7:01 AM:
You can't just summarize 1400 years of history and say nothing has changed. It's ignorant. Periodic violence in history, whether perpetrated by Muslims or Christians or anyone, has ALWAYS been a function of Empire, not a function of religion. In some periods of history this has been an Islamic Empire. But the common trait is Empire not Islam. The myth of the swarthy arab holding a dagger to the throat of the infidel and saying convert or die is a lie perpetuated by medieval popes to raise support for the Crusades.
You are copy and pasting from web sites which are lying to you. They do not misinterpret, they misrepresent. They wage charges made by right wing ideologs rather that looking seriously at history. And if you're going to make claims about 1 billion people you've never met, you aught to have the facts.
So I’m asking you… examine your claims before you spread them. To have hate in your heart for 1 billion people you’ve never met is not good for you and it’s not good for me. And the more people spread these lies about the religion the more people will hate me for no good reason, the more people will say nothing when they come for me, and the more Muslims will be tricked into these polluted ideas. "
a friend wrote on Jul 22, 2008 12:50 PM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 22, 2008 12:53 PM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 22, 2008 1:16 PM:
the severe damage that is being done to Islam is perpetrated by those that claim allegiance to Islam and yet wield the rod of terror, not by honest skeptics, or honest historical or theological scholars. If someone has taken a stand (based on well documented and verifiable sources) against the teachings of Islam, how will that make Muslims more apt to become radical deviants? Its seems to me that is what you were proposing. If I misunderstood let us know. However if it is possible for a "true" muslem to resort to terror, it would seem to me that the very thing that you claim Islam supports has crumbled. "
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 22, 2008 1:20 PM:
I am Paradisegraphics@Hotmail.com "
Reality Check wrote on Jul 22, 2008 1:43 PM:
NValleyGirl wrote on Jul 22, 2008 1:54 PM:
Thanks NVR I was getting bored with the homophobia and the anti immigrant sentiments! "
Rocco wrote on Jul 22, 2008 2:29 PM:
NValleyGirl wrote on Jul 22, 2008 2:42 PM:
Because God forbid that imperialistic America take a good hard look at itself, better to point out "wrong doings" of others. Gives us all that warm and fuzzy feeling of perfection.
Same garbage different topic. "
Rocco wrote on Jul 22, 2008 3:34 PM:
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 22, 2008 3:34 PM:
Who are these "honest" thinkers you're talking about? I'm talking about the jack boots in Military that have been distributing extremist textbooks in the Middle East for 20 years. (Google: Bush Cover-Up Jihad Schoolbooks)
Islamic theology was deliberately corrupted by the US Military during the Cold War... and that is the prevailing ideology the West is fighting with.
NYPD agrees in their Report on Homegrown Radicalization
(Google: NYPD Radicalization)
All terrorist attacks in Western countries have been from adherents of Salafi Islam, who had little to no education in traditionalIslam. Salafi Islam grew out of the Wahabi movement in Saudi Arabia, which grew out of British funded scholars, under a British funded government.
Classic Frankenstein Monster.
If you think there are "well documented and verifiable sources" that justify these atrocities... show me a verse.
I have no trouble handling scrutiny. I embrace it, and I will refute every false claim. I have a problem when my application of that same freedom is labeled “Muslim outrage.” "
NValleygirl wrote on Jul 22, 2008 4:00 PM:
P.S. Let me know when you actually start your open dialogue on the wrong doings of America, Americans, and Christianity, you might actually have a leg to stand on then. "
Reality Check wrote on Jul 22, 2008 4:28 PM:
Paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 22, 2008 6:40 PM:
Actually it appeared on page A01 of the Washington Post on March 23, 2002. (Google: ABC's of Jihad)
It also appeared in the Canadian Broadcasting COrporation (CBC) News Online on January 27th, 2004. (Google: Back to School in Afghanistan)
It was also discussed at length by Robert Dreyfuss in his book, "Devil's Game: How the US Unleash Fundamentalist Islam" published in 2006. (Google: Devil's Game Text) The entire text is available for free online. I highly recommend it.
This is not the stuff of a supermarket tabloid. It's well documented history. The ideologies of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are the direct result of US policy in Afghanistan during the Cold War. They are not indigenous to Islam. CIA funded, armed and trained militants such as Osama Bin Ladin to fight the Soviets. They spoon fed them that ideology for 20 years from 1984 to 1994.
The Wahbi/Saudi thing is a slightly different animal. For that you've got look further back to the Brittish's hand in dividing the Ottoman Empire in 1924. "
gatekeeper wrote on Jul 22, 2008 8:17 PM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 22, 2008 8:40 PM:
You never did answer my question regarding whether a "true" Muslim can resort to terror.
However, on one hand you speak out against what you consider to be fatal aberrancies in Islam. On the other hand you seem to blame everyone except those that embrace the “false teachings”. There are false teachers in every faith, but it is a bit scary if people within orthodoxy are justifying and making excuses for those that pervert their faith. I deal with aberrant theology everyday within my own faith system. Ultimately the buck stops with those that exchange the truth for a lie. What side are you on, the side that stands with your brand of Islam, or the radicals? Do you hold so much in common with the radicals that you feel you have to defend them? In spite of history, we are all culpable for what we embrace. You have made a statement that Muslims are not offensive but defensive. Are you talking about radicals? How far are you willing to take that? Why Defend the Radicals? You are not far off from them if you hold sympathy for them and their “cause”.
You also have said that basically all information that is available in the English language is a lie. That anyone outside of “traditional” Islam has lied and distorted your beliefs. That there is no place that anyone can go to research your theology…Hogwash. You basic tenants are readily available to anyone that cares to discover. Ultimately this is a built-in defense that attempts to deflect any critical analysis of the system. And I’m not talking about an interpretation of particular text in the Koran; I am talking about the systematic theology and the sub-divisions thereof. "
Paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 22, 2008 10:52 PM:
What are you talking about? I made no such claim about language. I’m not defending Muslims. I’m defending Islam. I didn’t say Muslims are not offensive but defensive… I said Islam mandates defense violence, not aggressive violence.
It’s funny, everyone asks the same question. The wording changes slightly, but always “true” in quotes like that. Are you reading from a crib sheet? It’s a clever question. Because Islamic teachings prohibit me from saying who is and isn’t a “true” Muslim. It corners me so any answer I can give can be construed as defending terrorists. Brilliant play!
Here’s the answer.
A “true” Muslim is anyone who believes in Allah and his messenger Muhammad. Period. End of statement. It is their actions that are not in accordance with Islamic teachings. Often they are utterly ignorant of the teachings of Islam, as the NYPD report confirms. Their actions are condemnable, but they do not reflect upon the religion.
I am not attributing blame, I am illustrating cause. Terrorism is the blowback of imperialism, not the product of Islam.
Al-Qaeda has one simple demand… the removal of US military from the Arabian Peninsula… No one is saying convert or die. It’s a band of militants resisting imperialism. I’m a patriot, and a strict constitutionalist. Jefferson warned against standing armies. Washington warned against an interventionist foreign policy. John Adams warned against going abroad searching for dragons to slay. If you don’t sympathize with the cause of a people resisting an imperial power on their own land you’re a tyrant.
What separates me from the radicals is that I condemn their tactics. I condemn any attack on innocent civilians. What about you? Can you condemn the tactics of the US Military? Or maybe it’s you who has something in common with the radicals. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:10 AM:
dont forget america has bombed over 50 nations since ww2 and thats a very old statistic. but that was good cause those people over there are evil they hate freedom.
actually i feel sorry for the hatefull people in here cause they dont even realise the reality of what they are saying and believing. and they have been conditioned to think that way. i just wish people would wake up.
speaking against injustice, terror, and the crimes of this gov. and nation are patriotic, i dont want to see my country fall apart. america was founded as a country against empire and fascist ideology. and know we have the merger of corperate and state power coupled with lose of liberty. thats a quick recipe for fascism. mabey passive agressive at home but still the same monster growing. the fascist countries of europe never saw it comming either. terror gave hitler his patriot act. and terror gave this empire the patriot act. its time for americans to wake up and realise the real enemy, the news is propaganda.they control what you think.
google and watch ''loose change'' ,''the power of nightmares'' and ''alex jones's ''end game'' "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:24 AM:
according to most christian doctrine god=trinity
1=3
father, son, holy spirit are all parts of one god.
jesus was killed by a man spearing him while he was hanging on a cross, yes?
if thats true god was killed by a man with a stick, yes?
jesus prayed to the father, yes?
god prayed to god then, yes?
jesus was born from a woman, yes?
god was born from a woman, yes?
if you dont like this and you call it bashing then can we call him a prophet?
i dont mean any direspect really? if saying those things or typing them is bad, or disrespectfull then mabey we should just say god is one and unique
he is absolute and eternal, he was not begotton nor does he begatt, and there is absolutly nothing like him. mabey we should worship god like jesus did, read the bible he prayed like muslims, and if you want to know about the jesus you have to study islam, because jesus was a muslim, he submitted him self to god, he is a prophet and we follow him, and he is from us. we dont associate partners with our creator. just simply educate yourself on the council of nacia(probably the wrong spelling) on mithra, horus, and there are more if those catch your intrest, the romans never became chrisitan they took judaism added paganism and turned the worship of god to the worshop of the one sent by god. the one who taught them about god and brought the gospel.
jesus is a muslim. worshop the creator not the creation please. "
winemd wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:37 AM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:16 AM:
You flatter me by suggesting that I am using a cheat sheet. LOL! No…it’s just a logical question and if it keeps coming up then its simplicity is apparent.
Ok so you just said that it is mandatory (not permissible) for Muslims to use violence against a perceived aggressor in defense (I’m assuming you mean preservation of life) according to the teachings of Islam. Thanks for the clarification. That helps me to understand how easily this teaching can become perverted.
Thanks for clarifying that YOU condemn the tactics of the terrorists. You still didn’t answer my question. Remember that I did not ask WHO a true Muslim is (If you don’t like “true” Muslim then how about a faithful follower of Islam) . I asked if a faithful follower of Islam could resort to terrorism. However, I believe you are trying to honestly deal with questions as best as you can so… you can dodge this if you feel it is too difficult for you to disclose.
I never made claims that Islam teaches that people must convert or be subject to the knife, so that is off the table. In fact I never laid claim to much about Islam except to encourage people to educate themselves on the basic doctrine, what it has in common with Christianity, and where the HUGE divide is. They would do well to research the differences before they jump into the Islamic indoctrination process.
I do not advocate intentionally targeting innocent victims. If you believe that the US military on a macro level (excluding isolated cases of idiots) intentionally targets innocent victims then there is a lot more wrong here than doctrinal differences and the dialogue is useless. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:46 AM:
muslim means one who submits his will to the will of god.every prophet has been a muslim since adam and eve. god said he sent prophets to every nation and tribe. moses was sent to the children of isreal and the egyptians, jesus was sent to the lost sheep of isreal, and our prophet muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon them all) is the last prophet, the unlettered prophet, the last brick in the wall of guidence, the comforter that jesus spoke of that chiristians claim to be ''the holy spirit'' i will respond later today with a list of scriptures that prophesis his coming in the bible, all the prophets were told of the prophet who would be sent to all of humanity, in hebrew it even says his name ahmed spelled and pronounced as it is in arabic, king james conveinantly changed it to shilo. he is the most sucsessfull person in human history, the most influential, the most beloved, more has been documented about his iife than any other person anywhere in history. jesus was told about his coming like every other prophet was. right now there are over7 billion on the planet and he is the propet for all those, and the last 1400+ years , and who ever is to come, jesus will return following the law he brought. jesus the son of mary the messiah will complete his mission and kill the anti christ and he will not accept people associating partners with god, he will end this whole debate. it is narrirated that the prophet muhammad said, that all the prophets are brothers, and jesus the son of mary is the closest to me .
i will provide biblical proof aswell.... "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:54 AM:
a muslim is one who believes in the oneness of god in his essence and attributes, and who believes in all the prophets, you cant believe in prophet muhammad if you dont beleive in jesus, moses, abraham, noah and all the others and what they brought originally. and the future prophets were prophesiesd about esspecially the one who was sent to all humanity, a mercy to all of creation. and if anyone christian is thinking of all the things they heard about jihad they should go read the old testament becasue the jihad the children of isreal did in there should make you realise how mercifull the prophet muhammad was. "
savenapa wrote on Jul 23, 2008 11:01 AM:
You distort doctrine by boiling it down to sophomoric conclusions that twist the final determination: i.e.- your conclusion that trinitarianism teaches that man killed god. Your posts are ridded with rhetoric and ad-hominem assertions. Your blog spamming is hurting your whole cause so I will try not to encourage your rampage.
Suffice to say that I am not here to debate soteriology, eschatology, trinitarianism or any other Christian or Islamic Doctrine; just to encourage people to learn for themselves apart from influences such as yourself. The funny thing is that you actually believe you are accomplishing the opposite of what is really happening here.
If you persist I will simply ignore you. "
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 23, 2008 11:01 AM:
It's a whole different topic. But its the same reason that Moses believed in Jesus... he was fortold in the previous scriptures. I don't have the proofs handy, but one I know for sure is that Muhammad is in the Song of Solomon by name, if you read the Hebrew.
"can a faithful follower of Islam resort to terrorism"
That's the same question. I'm not willing to testify to the state of a person's heart. I can only testify to the permissability of a person's actions. Attacking any non combatant is inpermissable according to Islamic Law. A person who does this is not acting in accordance with Islamic teachings. That's as clear as I can make it.
I didn't ask you to not advocate targeting innocent victims, I asked you to condemn it. if the current conflict isn't obvious enough to you... how about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? "
savenapa wrote on Jul 23, 2008 11:06 AM:
You distort doctrine by boiling it down to sophomoric conclusions that twist the final determination: i.e.- your conclusion that trinitarianism teaches that man killed god.
Your posts are riddled with rhetoric and ad-hominem assertions. Your blog spamming is hurting your whole cause so I will try not to encourage your rampage.
Suffice to say that I am not here to debate soteriology, eschatology, trinitarianism or any other Christian or Islamic Doctrine; just to encourage people to learn for themselves apart from influences such as yourself. The funny thing is that you actually believe you are accomplishing the opposite of what is really happening here.
If you persist I will simply ignore you. "
savenapa wrote on Jul 23, 2008 11:31 AM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 12:17 PM:
-sophomoric = adjective
of, relating to, or characteristic of a sophomore : my sophomoric years.
• pretentious or juvenile : sophomoric double entendres.
-soteriology = noun Theology
the doctrine of salvation.
DERIVATIVES
- eschatology = noun
the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.
DERIVATIVES
''I am not here to debate soteriology, eschatology, trinitarianism or any other Christian or Islamic Doctrine; just to encourage people to learn for themselves apart from influences such as yourself. The funny thing is that you actually believe you are accomplishing the opposite of what is really happening here.'' ---savenapa---
thankyou savenapa thats exactly what i am hoping for, dont take my word for it or anyones elses, go look it up for ourselves, thats what im advocating, common sense and a serious look at history, reality, our beliefs and this whole mess we are all in globably.
your free to believe in what ever your heart desires by all means. and if you wish to sophomorically put your hands over your eyes and plug your ears its your free will. but you havent shown me where my elementary common sense, logical conclusiions are wrong. you havent proven me wrong you have used words that 99 percent of the readers dont have a clue what they mean and have resorted to insults and childish acusations. so what does ad-hominem mean anyway cause it wasnt in my dictionary? your free to prove me wrong and if you do i will stand with you, untill then you have not responded to any of my claims, you have simply changed the subject. show where my conclusions are wrong or please go plug your ears and cover your eyes "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 12:27 PM:
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 12:36 PM:
the lesser jihad of war insist on it, for muslims. so dont accuse islam of the crimes of muslims who disobey the islamic law, and way of the prophet peace be upon him. jihad is much more humane than shock and awe with nuclear waste. all for financial gains, and consolidation of natural resources and golbal power, for the benifit of global elites, corperations, and central banks.
this war is a war against us all.
if you stoped being scared of your own shadow and just broke the conditioning of the neo cons, and corperate media, hollywood, and the empire for profit complex you could see this is a war against us all.
they are playing a chess game, we just need to realise that we are the pieces. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 23, 2008 2:01 PM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 23, 2008 2:19 PM:
ad-hominem=
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
here is an article that should be easy to understand relating to your view of trinitarian theology
http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/article/a06.htm "
savenapa wrote on Jul 23, 2008 2:31 PM:
for the record
i'm not paranoid and I do not hate you "
fig wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:35 PM:
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:54 PM:
For comparison… Imagine you asked me to condemn that attacks of 911 and I responded, “911 in my opinion was a huge mistake. It should not have happened” Doesn’t quite satisfy does it?
Just to offer a third party perspective, remove the passion and Samieh’s argument is basically thus:
If you believe Jesus is God, and you believe Jesus was killed by the Romans, than you must believe that God was killed by the Romans.
I think this is logically sound… I understand that it is an over simplification of Christian theology. It doesn’t take into account the resurrection for example. But it is a true statement. In Christian theology the Romans killed God… even if only for three days… and even if only with the permission of the Father. To a Christian this is just part of the mystery of the Trinity. To a Muslim this is a contradiction of God’s attributes. God cannot die. Not even for three days.
So, you can believe what you like. Christian theology is intricate and fascinating… especially it’s history and evolution. As a Muslim I believe in the indivisible unity of God. In your terms, Muslims believe that neither the Son nor the Spirit has any power except by the permission of the Father. They are not His co-equals, but His servants.
John 5:30 “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father” This is Islam, submission to the Divine Will, taught in your book not mine.
Having studied the Bible I find much more support for Unity than Trinity. But I’m open to new evidence. "
glenroy wrote on Jul 25, 2008 9:31 AM:
savenapa wrote on Jul 25, 2008 9:39 AM:
As far as semieh goes- his passion is the very thing that should be alarming to society in general. In the same way I try to steer clear of Christians that can’t seem to control their emotions.
Christian theology teaches that Jesus willfully laid down the life of his assumed corporeal state for a specific time and for a specific reason. It however, does not teach that God was killed…ever.
I am aware of the positions and the arguments for and against trinitarianism (which by the way IS monotheistic). I am not trying to convince you of anything. I see more biblical evidence for the other position; however, hurling verses back and forth is not productive in this context. If you are truly open to careful examination of our (your and my) positions in a loving context, I am open to it; but not in this forum for obvious reasons. However, I trust that you have examined the evidence both for and against your position (as I have) so this is most likely a vain pursuit. If you want to pursue an information exchange through email or some other means let me know.
In the mean time it is only responsible that I should remind people to carefully examine the facts for themselves regarding divergent theological systems and to “look before they leap” into Islamic territory.
Peace to you Paradise "
savenapa wrote on Jul 25, 2008 10:29 AM:
The board of directors to the best of my knowledge is still comprised of mostly a population with direct ties to Missouri Synod. (Church members)
Now, this is very interesting because there are many claims in these posts that Christians are non loving, hateful, excluding of people, etc.
Ask yourself this…(excluding strongarm legality rants and discrimination claims)do you think that you would find an Islamic founded and supported organization that would invite a Christian group to meet and proselytize? "
get a life wrote on Jul 25, 2008 11:25 AM:
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 25, 2008 2:38 PM:
You shouldn't use words like "tiny fraction" if you don't have actual numbers. It's irresponsible. I am not in the minorty.
savenapa -
Respectfully... that doesn't make any sense to me. How can Christianity teach that Jesus is God, then say that Jesus died and God didn't?
Arguing scripture is likely a vain pursuit. I don't consider the Bible free from error anyway.
I disagree with the characterization of Islam a "divergent theological system" To "diverge" means to split from a main path. Islam didn't grow out of a community of Christians. The Arabs were pagan. Islam appeared in isolation from a prophet who never studied Christianity.
In regards to the Lutheran board of directors... I know there have been Jewish speakers at one of the mosques I attend. And I know I've attended half a dozen events hosted by Islamic orgs that included Christian and atheist groups. I invite in whatever Christian comes to my door with whatever literature they're pushing. Generally speaking the magority of Islamic organizations are relief organizations, so it's not really the place to proselytize. But even then, I know we work closely with a Buddhist organiztion at the place I volunteer....
I'm not sure what you're getting at. "
newmom wrote on Jul 25, 2008 7:40 PM:
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 26, 2008 12:25 AM:
glenroy wrote on Jul 26, 2008 1:30 PM:
What I write, I’ve learned from life experiences. On my mothers side we have Muslims in our family living in Lebanon, Egypt and I was born in Libya. It was not a pleasant birth from what I’ve been told, just days before fanatics slaughtered, cut their heads off, all non Muslims, doctors, nurses, patients, babies…everyone in the hospital that was not registered Muslim. My mother was spared because she spoke fluent Arabic telling the fanatics her daughters father was a Muslim, perhaps they thought I was too. I have spent enough time around Muslims to know the consequences of outspoken moderation in Muslim dominated societies, particularly for woman, it simply is not tolerated on any commonly accepted level. I once thought otherwise….now I don’t think Muslims societies will reach a level of openness and moderation in a western sense…but that’s fine if someday they actually reach a level of tolerance peace will be possible…but tolerance in deed is nowhere in sight.
I’m not trying to derail your efforts in fact I commend your efforts, perhaps it is all just semantics. I realize Muslims claim it is a religious obligation to be tolerant…but I’ve seen first hand what they actually do in practice is called submission here in the Western World…they just call it tolerance. If you don’t believe me ask a Coptic Egyptian… an Armenian…. a Hindu…a Phalange….an Indonesian Catholic…a Greek Orthodox…a Spanish Catholic….they’re plenty of them living here. "
newmom wrote on Jul 26, 2008 6:11 PM:
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 27, 2008 12:08 AM:
With all respect for your hardships your experience is not sufficient to determine what fraction of a population of 1 billion is reasonable. Fanatics are by definition in the minority. And it is hardly an Islamic teaching to go around beheading doctors and mothers who are not "registered" Muslims. I'm not a "registered" Muslim, nor do I know any.
The difficulties of accurate polling data makes statistical claims even more irresponsible, not less. While your life experience may justify your bias, it does not render you objective.
I don't know the history or politics of Libya very well. If you'd like to give me a date to look into I will. My thesis is that terrorism is the blowback of imperialism, and I know Libya was subject to the Imperialism of Fascist Italy for quite some time. I'd imagine that has shaped the politics of the country. That doesn't justify the actions of radicals... but it may be in line with my thesis. I'd like to look into it.
newmom
It's amazing to me that this attitude prevails since Muhammad specifically forbid treating women like property.
I'm not sure ethnocentric is the word you're looking for. My ethnicity is Scottish and German, but that has little bearing on how I live my life. I think it is sincerity to believe that the way you live is the best way. Otherwise you should change. Ignorance and bigotry result from not accepting new evidence, and not being willing to reevaluate previous assumptions about what you believe to be the best way to live.
Believing in only one way is absurd. There are as many paths to God as there are hearts. "
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 27, 2008 12:16 AM:
Nothing to do with Muslims. Nothing to do with British or American occupation.
The Tamil are Hindu, and the Sinhalese are Buddhist. They have coexisted in Sri Lanka for centuries. Tamils generally controlled the northern part and Sinhalese the southern part. In 1505 the Portuguese occupied Sri Lanka and seized control, and it remained a colony of one foreign power of another until 1948 when the Tamil and the Sinhalese fought together to gain their independence. Since then the two groups have been fighting against each other for control of Sri Lanka. This Civil War includes assassinations... car bombings... and all your typical bloodthirsty savagery.
When societies are allowed self determination they find a way to negotiate and trade with their neighbors. They form natural borders, and establish equilibriums of influence. When a foreign occupying force comes in and relocates people, and divides people who were previously unified, or unifies people who were previously divided, it creates civil unrest. Where once there was an equilibrium of influence, now there an artificial nation state, and within that nation state there are seats of power, the ruler of which has authority over the other group... which creates the need in both groups to occupy those seats of power in order to once again possess self determination. Where once there were natural borders, now there are artificial lines drawn by foreign powers who make enemies of brothers, or countrymen of strangers because now self determination is only achieved at the expense of someone else's self determination.
The blowback of occupation is sectarian violence. "
newmom wrote on Jul 27, 2008 1:03 PM:
cab e-girl wrote on Jul 27, 2008 1:12 PM:
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 27, 2008 9:08 PM:
Do you feel the same way about Buddhists and Hindus? I've never heard them condemn terrorism in Sri Lanka.
The first suicide bomber in Jerusalem was a 12 year old Jewish girl. (Google: Jerusalem Bomber Girl in Red)
The Genocide in India is committed by Hindus against Muslims.
(Google: Hindu Extremists kill Muslims)
Christians are clever enough to cloak their Imperialism in the name of "Democracy."
Is it impossible that maybe there is a variable that unites all these atrocities that isn't religion?
Islam doesn’t cause this kind of violence. Otherwise Islam would have been on the road to suicide the moment they discovered explosives. It is the result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the subsequent dividing of territory arbitrarily by Western powers... to export resources.
Sometimes occupied territories fall into Civil War. Sunnis kill Shia in Iraq, not because Islam says to kill Shia, but because they want self determination in an artificial nation state. Palestinians kills Israelis. Buddhists kill Hindus... and on and on.
Sometimes occupied territories rightfully see the foreign power as the enemy. So they call for the removal of US forces from Muslim lands. Those who don't know their religion resort to tactics which are forbidden in Islam, and commit atrocities which are not in accordance with the teachings of Islam. Those who know their religion follow the Imams who stand on the right side of history, who preach against Western hegemony, against it's occupation... but still condemn terrorism. And these scholars are locked up or killed by their own "Islamic" governments, because those governments are puppets of the occupier. "
cab e-girl wrote on Jul 27, 2008 9:59 PM:
Iraqi security officials say unidentified gunmen have killed seven Shi'ite pilgrims who were walking to a shrine in the capital for a major religious commemoration.
Sana'a, Yemen - An al-Qaeda wing in Yemen on Sunday claimed responsibility for Friday's suicide car bomb attack on a police compound that killed a policeman and wounded 18 others.
A group calling itself the Turkistan Islamic Party released a video threatening the Beijing Olympic Games and claiming responsibility for recent deadly explosions on two Chinese buses.
India’s leaders placed the country on high alert and appealed for calm yesterday after multiple bombings in two main cities killed at least 45 people and injured almost 180 others. A little known group called the "Indian Mujahideen" claimed responsibility.
At least 15 people were killed and 154 injured in a double bomb attack late last night in a busy shopping street in Istanbul, hours before a court was due to decide the fate of Turkey’s ruling political party. Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) is being investigated for links with several high-profile murder cases and bomb attacks, and is suspected of engineering PKK and Islamic terrorist attacks. "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 28, 2008 5:50 AM:
the issues of treatment of women and violence are signs of the people not following the teachings of the religon(s).not the religon. i heard statistics that came out last year about americans that claim, 80% of marriages end up in divorce. 70% of husbands and wives cheat on there spouse. domestic abuse is rampid in our country. drugs are a huge huge problem here. and i think we live in the most if not one of the most violent societies in the world, historically and present day. there are more people in prisons than schools. in fact we have more people in prisions than the rest of the world combined!!!!
are statistics like these the result of chrisian infuence? is it because we are a majority christian nation that these things happen? or is it the human condition? i would say it is that the christians collectively arent following the religon if they are using drugs, beating there wife, or cheating on there spouse wouldnt you? or what about the massive catholic priest scandal? is it because of catholicism, the bible? no its individuals and there choices, the church doesnt teach those things. so why not measure with the same ruler? "
samieh karami wrote on Jul 28, 2008 6:14 AM:
1981 regan funds and trains the contras. 30,000 nicaraguans die
1982 u.s. provides billions in aid to sadam hussain for weapons to kill iranians, part of those were most of the chemical and bio weapons he had and used.
1983 white house secretly gives weapons to iran weapons to kill iraqis.
1990 iraq invades kuwait with permission and weapons from the u.s.
1991 u.s. enters iraq (to free kuwait, not for the largest oil reserves in the world) bush reinstates dictator of kuwait
the u.n. estimates 500,000 iraqi children died from the bombing and sanctions
does anyone else condemn these acts of violence against civillian populations?
islam condemns all acts of violence against any civilian population, wether its muslims attacking or being attacked.
if you dont condemn the listed acts and others like it, no matter who does it. then i suggest not pointing the finger at islam, if you are guilty of what you are accusing
lets look at the math. muslims make up close to 1/4 the worlds population. almost 2 billion people, and rapidly growing.
so why is it when someone who is or claims to be muslim does something bad its because of islam? but if christian does something bad, it doesnt reflect on christianity? im not suggesting christianity teaches bad treatment of people just asking to analize with justice and equality? "
cab e-girl wrote on Jul 28, 2008 8:09 AM:
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:27 AM:
It's too bad Christians (according to you) aren't against injustice for any reason, and only stand against injustince in the name of Christianity. "
paradisegraphics wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:38 AM:
You are operating under the delusion that there is no Muslims outcry against terrorism... seriously go to Google right now and type "Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks"
The first result is a list of thousands of organizations, scholars and individuals who have made spoken out and taken action against terrorism.
Media marginalizes these voices… because… we have been at war directly or indirectly with a Muslim country for YEARS! It’s not that Muslims don’t condemn civilians terrorism, it’s that we’ve been screaming in the dark and our voices are horse. "