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AGW rant
Wednesday, April 16, 2008
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What is being done in the name of Anthropogenic (human-caused) Global Warming right now is a tragedy. People have gone insane with this. Why in the world do we think that raising gasoline prices to $5 a gallon is a good idea? People are going to starve, in fact they are starving already and AGW hysteria is a major culprit.

Biofuels are a sad joke. They are not going to solve any problems. Biofuels were what we ran on before we had fossil fuels. You know, a horse plowing a field that ran on grains for food? That's biofuel powered production.
Ethanol gets 1.34 BTU's (british thermal units, a measure of energy) for every 1 BTU burned up making it. Oil easily averages 100 BTU's per 1 BTU needed to produce it. That means that ethanol has 100 times less energy than oil, which means it is incredibly expensive and inefficient.

So what does our government do? Subsidize the production of ethanol from corn to the tune of billions of tax dollars and make corn so expensive that food prices are shooting up. And it solves exactly zero problems with energy.
Not only that, but now that this biofuel craze has hit, rainforests are being felled to grow biofuel sources like sugar beets and corn, and so much third world acreage is being switched over that there are food riots. There were riots over cooking oil a few months back and now riots over rice prices are starting to happen, one in Haiti this week.

Food prices have doubled and even tripled, and a lot of that has happened in the last few months. Anyone who is out there telling you that fixing global warming "doesn't have to cost a lot" is selling you a bill of goods. It has already had enormous costs and they are going up fast.
$4 a gallon gas and food prices that are being driven up by increased energy and transportation costs are really hurting Americans, and you can multiply that times a hundred in the third world. It is the people at the bottom who always get hurt the most by this stuff.

Even Paul Krugman, well known left wing economist and New York Times opinion columnist, had this to say in reference to corn ethanol: "You might put it this way: people are starving in Africa so that American politicians can court votes in farm states".

Why are we doing this to ourselves? Have we been really really bad people that God has to punish, so we will jump in first and do it ourselves?

I don't trust the environmentalists who are promoting this. These are the same people who went into the third world and banned DDT resulting in literally millions of deaths from malaria. They take zero responsibility for it now. DDT turned out to be a far less toxic substance than the alarmists at the time claimed.

What it does do is make some birds shells thinner, and therefore if enough DDT is in the environment then we would lose some birds. Are millions of human deaths is worth that? If Republicans had promoted this with equal results it would be listed as one of the great humanitarian crimes of history, instead most people don't even know about it.

The biggest problem with the AGW debate is that the climate and statistical models that are used to prove it are so complicated that even most Ph.D's in meteorology don't understand it. That means that I don't understand it, you don't understand it, Al Gore does not understand it, nor do about 99.9% of the people preaching about it understand it. Yet we all have to make decisions, momentous and incredibly important decisions, about what to do about it. So we do what we always do in these instances, we evaluate the credibility of the people who do say they know.

Two of the major figures who started all this are James Hanson of NASA, and Michael Mann, lead author of early United Nations IPCC reports. Hanson of NASA is the chief alarmist on AGW, who would not even allow other scientists to peer review the statistical methods used to adjust all the temperature data until very recently. This is the raw data that proves the temperatures have gone up. And his hording of his methodology is completely contrary to science. Strike one.

Then Hanson's fellow alarmist Michael Mann came up with the famous "hockey stick" graph used by Al Gore in his movie to demonstrate that rising carbon dioxide levels have led to enormous temperature increases since the industrial revolution. Then it was discovered that no matter what numbers you put into the formula used to create it, you got a hockey stick graph. Oops. Strike two.

And what was Mann‚s excuse? Oh, we are not statisticians. It doesn't matter because temperatures are going up anyway. What? What??? Excuse me, your whole theory is based on statistics, which you wouldn't show other scientists for peer review, and now you say you are not statisticians?? Strike three and you are out of the game. Leave the damn stadium losers, your propaganda is literally killing people. How can anyone trust them?

People, whatever your beliefs, and that is all they are at this point because it is an entirely unproven theory, whatever your beliefs are about AGW the fact remains that we have no other replacement fuel. The whole industrial revolution was started and grew due to fossil fuels and if we don't have a replacement then we are going to return to the economy we had before fossil fuels.

Except, except, except ... we do have one good source. But the environmentalists wont let us use it, nuclear fuel. To me that is another indication of why I can‚' take them seriously. If they were really that worried about AGW, they would be out promoting this. Isn‚'t that better than world wide poverty and starvation?

There is an arrogant elitism here that is ironically a mirror image of what they are constantly accusing Republicans of, insensitivity to the poor. Well, I will tell you, Exxon Corporation has done far more to bring people out of poverty than all the AGW alarmists rolled into one.
62 comment(s)

Kevin wrote on Apr 10, 2008 9:37 PM:

" "Arrogant elitism". Nice euphemism for Socialist/Environmentalist Whacko. Why the surprise? Algore and his ilk aren't stupid. They saw AGW as a means to an end: power and control. Look at the wealth it has earned him. Regardless of who is elected President, all the candidates have elected to "drink the kool aid" of AGW. All is not completely dire, the Bakken oil field in North Dakota has proven reserves of 4 Billion barrels and may have 100 Billion or more. This will give us another 20 years of energy consumption... "

napablogger wrote on Apr 10, 2008 10:36 PM:

" Kevin, I am angry because all this playing around with people has reached the point where many in the third world are risking starvation. It's not funny anymore. Not that it ever was, but now these AGW games are getting really dangerous. Al Gore had an interesting interview with Barbara Walters the other night, it was obvious that he is totally angry about the 2000 election, and this AGW thing is his way of getting back at people and at Republicans. I believe he is doing this out of revenge. A friend of mine went to high school with him and said that even then his father was putting so much pressure on him to become President that he was a weirdo. He had no friends at the school and was a totally stiff phony. My friend likes him and supports him because he is a liberal, but I think the guy is just totally on a revenge trip for not being elected. Of course, that is a psychological evaluation which I usually try to stay away from, because who knows? The fact that in the middle of all this he builds this huge energy wasting house and drives around in a fleet of SUV's to global warming events is a clue that he isn't really serious to me. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Apr 11, 2008 1:31 AM:

" People starve in other countries because they have not learned to live within the boundaries of their own resources. Feeding them more only transfers greater levels of suffering to another day.

Global warming or not, biofuels are a step toward self sufficiency. It's expensive. But so are the costs of war to maintain foreign fuel dependency. Those costs should be added on top of imported fuel costs and only then should it be compared to biofuels.

Energy 'expense' forces us to live within those boundaries defined by available resources. Any true environmentalist knows that 'expense' is present in all levels of nature in order to maintain balance.

Environmentalism and humanitarianism are not the same thing and in many respects they are opposite. Humanitarianism is about saving people at any cost, even if it contributes to population explosions, dependency and depletion of resources. Environmentalism is about saving the world in a sustainable way so that a reasonable number of humans can share the planet with other living things for as long as possible. Environmentalism concerns itself with the future. Humanitarianism concerns itself with the here and now. A true environmentalist cannot be a true humanitarianist.

I'm just telling you the truth. If someone tells you they are both, they are living in a hybrid fantasy world where the cost of living remains stable while resource demands concurrently increase. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 11, 2008 7:59 PM:

" YOU GO MICHAEL HALEY!!!!....wow something we agree upon.... "

Bill wrote on Apr 11, 2008 11:20 PM:

" Why don't you rant aginst the real arogant elitism of the farm bill? AGW is a smoke screen talking point for both parties to avoid the real threat of government subsidies to those welfare queen gentelman farmers. "

Bill wrote on Apr 11, 2008 11:23 PM:

" I have ranted about it several tgimes but corn cotton and rice are too boring. It .might take some real thought instead of party barbs. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 12, 2008 1:32 AM:

" Sandra, you and I agree on a lot, but for some reason I am particularly hard on you. You are a very good writer and I have been reading your letters to the editor and enjoying them for a long time now. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 12, 2008 1:44 AM:

" vocal, we are starting to learn some of your theories of human beings. I am afraid though that I think there are other reasons that people are poor and starving besides not learning to live within their resources. There is war, government corruption, ignorance, all kinds of things. Mexico has abundant resources and yet there are desperate poor, it is the eight poorest country in the world.

As to your points about environmentalism and humanitarianism, those are the most extreme definitions that I have ever heard. There are many points less radical that would qualify as being humanitarian or concerned about the environment. I suppose some people are that extreme, it is nearly insane if so. It is insane to try to lower world temperatures over the next century by ten degrees, assuming we even need to, by starving people and destroying the economy today. What is really behind that and all extremist philosophies is a lot of anger at the people who they feel have wronged the world and a desire to punish those people. Al Gore is one of them that does that. That is what I see with a lot of liberals actions, they want the world punished for being bad, for using fosssil fuels, for being racist, for all kinds of things, not paying enough taxes. It distorts their objectivity, if there is any left in that frame of mind. People on the far right do it too, especially those like Falwell and Pat Robertson--God is punishing for them, the evil people. What you have said is a mirror image of that mentality. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 12, 2008 1:51 AM:

" Bill and all: boy, it seems like people aren't responding as much as usual. I would usually have at least 25 comments by now. I wonder if they are having trouble finding it back here. So Bill, thanks for filling in with two comments, albeit short ones. :) And I agree with you about farm subsidies, total waste of money. Napa gets very little, I found a web site that lists all subsidies by county across the country and Napa got about $5000. worth. Made me wonder who in Napa is getting them. Not grape growers I can tell you that. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Apr 12, 2008 12:05 PM:

" NB, war and corruption are often a result of few available resources. Everyone's making a grab for what's available.

Regarding Mexico and other countries with a great deal of dry terrain; sure, they have available mineral/petroleum resources. But it doesn't feed them. If I had a choice of being stuck in a country with either surplus petroleum or surplus agricultural, it's a no brainer choosing which place I would rather be. I might have to walk long distances, but at least I will have food to provide the energy to walk.

Regarding global warming, global cooling, or any type of changes; man made or nature made: With few exceptions, humans have so far been lucky. Our climate has been fairly consistent which has allowed us to thrive. But it won't last forever. Historically, weather patterns show evidence of change, without human intervention, which affected food production. Even a volcanic eruption could change weather patterns.

We have grown up and outward with the assumption that our weather will remain consistent forever. Agriculture is somewhat dependent on consistent weather patterns.

Think of it this way. If you received an inheritance and you spent all the money at once because of an assumption that your job will always be available and that you will remain healthy enough to work into your old age, but then you develop an illness which forces you to quit, I'll bet that you would regret spending all that money at once.

We should not be spending all of our resources all at once. Nor should we contribute to an artificial expansion of other countries with dry arid lands who cannot support themselves without outside help. Like I said, suffering is put off until another day. That's inhumane.


"

vocal-de-local wrote on Apr 12, 2008 12:29 PM:

" Regarding my first post comment on environmentalists and humanitarianists: There are environmentalists who have humanitarianist qualities. But in their professional lives, if they talk about their concern for a starving world and then take the humanitarianist approach of feeding them all without some education on living withing their means, they are not being true environmentalists. A true environmentalist can have private concerns about humanity in the sense of wanting to save them all, but once they step into their professional position, they should be clear that the environmental movement is not about saving and enabling enormous numbers of people.

I do not believe that most environmentalists are punitive. If you witness a vehicle heading toward someone standing in the way, you will yell at them to get out of the way. Your warning was not the result of being punitive (I warned you that would happen if you crossed a busy street) but because humans naturally want to protect and help eachother.

Oh...another matter: NB, there are too many steps involved with finding the columnist blogs. We now have to go to opinions, onto more opinions and then onto columnists - 3 steps. I really believe that the columnist blogs should be mixed with all of the opinion blogs for greater input. "

Bill wrote on Apr 13, 2008 12:23 PM:

" N.B. Response? Well you are pretty good at stirring up response could it be that AGW has just been over worn by both sides?

When you make it into a Republican anti crusade on the merits of ethanol subsidies, or rather false merits, you had better see where the congressional votes are counted. Both major parties pander extraordinarily to the mega farm and commodities lobby. The sudden concern for the worlds starving population and linking it solely to ethanol is merely another tactical hook for you writing. It should spark a better response tghan you are receiving. It is not good when it is only those who agree with you.

I would like to point out what I believe is another error that you foster concerning farm subsidies and Napa valley grape growers. I will attribute this to what I have referred to before as Pollyannaish thinking on your part rather than accuse your of deliberate misleading statements or allowing yourself to be deliberately misinformed.

In the years 2003 to 2005 which I was able to verify documented statistics from the USDA no fewer than 266 Napa county residents received benefits, from a few dollars to hundreds of thousands. Some interesting and prominent names are included in that figure. Wineries, growers, corporate entities and individuals collected sizeable amount of public money intended to aid struggling farmers but diverted to those who were successful at gaming the system. This is all public record and the wine business ties to corporate farming do not exclude it from culpability in defrauding the American taxpayer.
"

Bill wrote on Apr 13, 2008 12:36 PM:

" N.B. cont. from previous to help add to your site hits.

For the same time span over $12 million dollars in corn subsidies were awarded to the 1st congressional district, a district not known for corn production. In these years California received over 1.11 billion in USDA benefits. All this did more to damage the intrests of economies dependent upon the price of grain than any amount of ethanol subsidy. Those who needed it the least benefited the most from a program originally designed to protect family farms from the vagaries of nature and commodity price fluctuations and Napa valley vintners and growers were among those receiving the benefits.

There a re several local well known names on the list of 266 recipients some famous long time Napa players as well as virtual unknowns. It is hard to understand how this out right fraud can be ignored in favor of the more glamorous opinion bites on immigration or global warming. The farm subsidies do more to promote hunger and need in Latin America, Africa and other continents that contribute to migration than any ethanol subsidy or imagined forign thirst for US social benefits.

Farm bill gives the great lie to the promises of NAFTA and the free market advocates of globalization. It shows them to be economic hypocrites. It also shows thart this vally is as complicit in this hierocracy as any corner of the US.

Talking corn is just not glamorous.
"

Bill wrote on Apr 13, 2008 7:46 PM:

" My typing and spell checker does not serve me well. thats hypocricy not hierocracy, but I do like the word. My favorite conservative has now passed and was a good source for driving me up the wall with his opinions and maling me look up a new word.

you need more hits here attack ethanol as a total boondoggle and forget the global warming stuff. Ethanol subsidies are a global threat and so is the farm bill which dwarfs the ethanol subsidies. Make some body really angry. threaten to cut off all such subsidies across party lines instead of allowing both parties to play gotcha. "

napablogger wrote on Apr 13, 2008 10:18 PM:

" Bill, perhaps I was mistaken about the amount of money Napa County farmers receive in farm subsidies, maybe what I saw was only grape growers. It has been a while since I saw it, but in any case you are preaching to the choir on that one. I don't think they should be getting federal govt subsidies if they are. Biofuels are one part of the whole AGW mess threatening to tank the world wide economy, so yes I want to speak out on that whole subject. "

Bill wrote on Apr 14, 2008 4:42 PM:

" N.B. My beef is confusing the over heated subject of global warming with a bad policy to pursue corn and ethanol development. I think we should be looking at alternatives to current carbon fuels but not at the expense of the food supply. It’s a straw man to point the finger at ethanol alone and not realize that big corporate structures are built around turning corn alone into fuel. Two major groups argue about the amount of energy it takes to make ethanol one, Cornell, has been aired in a previous blog.

The jury is still out but the rush to corn has stampeded US politicians from both parties into the fold of the farm lobby, a lobby that no longer represents the interests of farmers but corporate interests of industrial farms.

The refusal to recognize the linkage to immigration, food prices, many societies changing food habits to the demand for meat and the pressure the US agricultural economic policy exerts around the globe is a grave mistake. We subsidize millionaires while demanding that a peasant living hand to mouth with nothing more than a mule to work his small subsistence acreage compete with us, that’s NAFTA and the double edged sword of farm subsidies including ethanol.

I know you love your grapes but many of the biggest names in Napa valley grape and wine productions are receiving subsidies through the farm bill. Two of the biggest names in sales are on the list, except that one comes from another county, and several more names are the top dogs of Napa fame. It is corporate industrial agriculture and Napa is right in the middle of it.
"

steph wrote on Apr 15, 2008 7:31 PM:

" I agree with Bill. And I never agree with Bill. Although I don't get too exercised over AGW, I think you're mixing two arguments. Corn subsidies are wrong. I'd love to talk nuclear, and how about algae farming for ethanol production--there we might have something. As for vocal-de-local's argument, isn't it rather well-known that standard of living and birth rates are inversely proportional? We're just looking to provide that standard of living in a way that impacts the environment less AND keeps money out of the terrorists' grubby hands. "

vocal-de-local wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:38 AM:

" Steph, you have a good point, bringing up "standard of living and birth rates - inversely proportional". The reason for this is because people who can afford to have better access to healthcare can afford to have fewer children. Poorer countries compensate for a lack of resource availability by having more children to compensate for a higher mortality rate. But the inverse statistics you refer to are not applicable across the board. Some countries do not believe in birth control for religious reasons, poor or not.

Someone shared with me statistics from a news article the other day and I do not know where they found them. I could find out if you're interested. It seems now, people with greater level of resources are having more children in the U.S.

Lower birth rates used to be associated with health care availability. Don't know if it's still true. I suppose if a mother was assured her offspring had a greater chance of survival, she would have fewer of them.

But food availability is another matter. If you take a country with historically fluctuating agricultural production, women probably reproduce at higher rates during high availability to compensate for increased mortalilty during low availability.

Consider any arid, drought prone region combined with an existing high population. How does the population become high in the first place? It' doesn't happen by accident. Their population increased beyond capacity when droughts were minimal and when they were provided food by outsiders.

The inevitable happens and they become food deprived once again. Their population remains too high to ever reach economic stability and the rest of the world enables them to remain that way. High levels of population make economic stability difficult to manage.

"

Native74 wrote on Apr 16, 2008 8:42 AM:

" Bravo Michael Haley! You nailed it and had the courage to publish your stance. I'm impressed!

I was actually slack jawed reading your article and had to revisit who actually wrote it. Party lines have really blurred in recent times especially when it comes to this whole trumped up AGW...follow the money I always say.

As for the farm subsidies, I'm sure you've heard about the fiasco in Texas where 10 acre ranchettes were abusing the system and I'm sure it's just the beginning. It's a shame that's for sure. "

JimClark wrote on Apr 16, 2008 9:44 AM:

" Here's the deal.

When we are taxed to death, we have to rely on the "government" to take care of us.

Is this really what the founders believed they were giving The People? No!! karl marx did.

We need to start recalling legislators and leaning hard on the bozos that created these conditions.

What you need to do is copy your letters and blogs to your word processor and email them to the bozos that supposedly represent you.

There is more to humankind than politics. Politics is the illegitimate child of Philosophy. Ethics, Morals, Principles; in a word, HONOR is the machine. The machine, when tuned properly, will give us back our Freedom.

Peace, love and subjugation? "

vocal-de-local wrote on Apr 16, 2008 11:34 AM:

" Steph, google Dr. Russell Hopfenberg "growth is madness". Check out the very first website. I think this will answer your question. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 17, 2008 9:43 AM:

" Haven't been on this page for a while.....Michael, you said , "Sandra, you and I agree on a lot, but for some reason I am particularly hard on you." LOL I would guess you join the ranks of Dan Ross with that statement...especially the "hard on you" part....but I can take... People misconstrue my words quite often...It is very hard to express the emotion behind the words....but it is revealing to see how the readers react....and also quite annoying at times. As for the environmental issue....I am constantly amazed what people think we are responsible for, and what they think we have the ability to control. It is important that we leave as small a footprint on the planet as possible. But come on, do they really believe that driving a prious, (or pious, as we like to call them in our household), will save the world? OK, that is an exaggeration.... but I hope you get my drift. There is way more on the planet than the people of the U.S. People all over the world are just trying to survive. Do you think someone in the third world cares about the life of the planet more than keeping their family safe and fed? We are an over crowded teeming mass, and the top prority of most of the world is not the carbon footprint. And many of the policies the environmentalists have pushed through have done more harm than good to these people. Many cannot see the forest through their favorite tree. Most of the problems in the world are all related in some way, and the solutions need to be looked at from many angles. Nothing is as simple as people would like it to be. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 17, 2008 10:37 AM:

" Sandra:
Great post, right on target. I especially liked the bit about the "pious" drivers. I have noticed that those same drivers appear to have a smug, self-righteous look on their faces and are often rude drivers as well. They must feel they have the "pious" right-of-way. But when all is counted, the pious may not have a lesser carbon footprint. Think of the environmental cost of the batteries, both manufacturing and recycling. It may wipe out whatever saving there was in oil.

Yes we need to be much more efficient but so many of these green things are just not well thought out. This is mainly because AGW is really a social engineering tool for the elites.

I heard algore a few days ago saying that anyone who didn't believe in global warming was so backward thinking that they must also think the earth is flat. Like Reagan told Gorbachev "tear down that wall" we need to tell algore to "tear down your big houses" before we listen to him any more.

By the way, the earth really is flat - isn't it? Otherwise flamingos would just roll off . . .
P. P. Flamingo "

a teacher wrote on Apr 18, 2008 3:04 PM:

" The elephant in the room is overpopulation. In my lifetime I've seen the Earth's population double. Whether you believe that people cause global warming or not, I think most will agree that 6 billion people have an environmental impact. Right now 2 billion people, a third of the planet, is beginning to feel prosperity for the first time in generations. They want the lifestyle they see in the west. You don't have to be an environmentalist or an economist to see that is problematic. I also think that politizing the issue of the environment is a terrible mistake, made by both the left and the right. The left is to quick to make fantastic claims and the right is too quick to dismiss them. The basic message of the environmental movement is this: We need to take care of our home, it's the only place we've got. That doesn't seem to me to be so contraversial. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 18, 2008 4:53 PM:

" I don't think anyone would disagree with the basic statement that "We need to take care of our home, it's the only place we've got." But those 2 billion people beginning to feel prosperity are going to swamp all the green things we do in the USA and the only thing we can do about it is stop buying so much of their cheap throwaway trash, at least until they implement some green controls. Those 2 billion feel entitled to their prosperity and as Sandra pointed out, what do they really care about the earth? They won't care until they have theirs, until then they think it only fair that they do whatever they want to get there. But "fair" is not a human right (we may all be equal but life is not "fair"). The planet cannot afford to have 2 billion more out of control polluters, no matter how fair it might be. The objection many of us have is to the half-baked "big ideas" like burning food for fuel, and a "carbon tax" which is not going to produce one molecule of fresh air - it's just another socialist wealth transfer scheme. Unfortunately, with such looney bin programs, politicization is inevitable. When we see these wacko social engineering programs being pushed on us we have to point them out. Then someone says "it's not fair!" and the whole cycle begins again, but doing stupid "green" things is NOT better than doing nothing. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 18, 2008 7:46 PM:

" See, this is why I get depressed when I think about this issue. You're right, "fair" isn't a human right. However, that cuts both ways. They want what we have, and why not. We can either give up some of what we have or fight to keep it. Most Americans would say that's not fair. Yeah, Ok, but go back to your point about human rights... I don't see how this ends well. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 19, 2008 8:37 AM:

" In response to what "a teacher wrote on Apr 18, 2008 7:46 PM", This brings us right back to many of the policies environmentalists have pushed through which are extremely detrimental to the third world. You must see the irony. There was a really great documentary on this subject...I am sorry, for the life of me I cannot remember the name of it. Maybe someone else knows what I am referring to and can provide the name? "

a teacher wrote on Apr 19, 2008 2:16 PM:

" Now, this is where I get irritated. First of all, I don't see how this is a response to anything I said, in any post I made. Secondly, the claim you are attempting to make (that environmentalists are responsible more much of the misery in the third world through ill concieved policy). While it has some merit, it is only one part of the many problems facing the third world (poverty, tribalism, lack of education, corruption, cold war politics, colonialism, the list goes on and on). How about this for a change: left and right sit down, dispense with the finger pointing and figure out some solutions. You amy not like Al Gore, but I just saw a commericial with Al Sharpton and Pat Robinson about global warming that Gore is putting out. If those two can sit down, then anything is possible. Otherwise, I refer to the post you responded to, where I close with "I don't see this ending well..." "

vocal-de-local wrote on Apr 19, 2008 2:59 PM:

" I'm confused. At one time, the concern about the plight of third world countries was not a priority for conservatives. It's as though some role reversal has taken place here, where extreme conservatives are so anti-environmentalist that they are riding a wagon, not out of any real conviction, but just for the sake of being oppositional defiant about the environmental movement.

Now their goal is to oppose environmentalism in favor of saving the world. Many are unwilling to see the inevitable destiny of starvation due to over population - a topic many of them do not want to address. Environmentalism IS conservation. Notice the word "conserve' in there? I thought that "conserve' was what "conservatism" was all about. Or was the "conserve" part only about money?

It's just mind boggling that so many conservatives have jumped on this "save the world population" bandwagon. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 19, 2008 3:57 PM:

" And they say Americans don't do irony... "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 19, 2008 5:32 PM:

" I have re-read my post of April 18 over and over and can't find the part where I am "anti-environmentalist". I have had a near lifelong belief that environmentalism is important - and I can personally state that because back in 1971 a friend and I started a small environmentally-oriented supply company (unfortunately we failed - not too many businesses were interested back then). I recycled before it became popular. And all through those years I was very conservative. But I finally saw the light and became a libertarian when I saw conservatives giving up their values and becoming big government types like the lefties. So I don't think you can paint conservatives as being anti-environmentalist, and there was nothing in my post that was anti-environmentalist. What I did say was that many silly programs have been promoted as green when in fact they turned out to be costly and detrimental to the environment, or blatant social engineering schemes such as the carbon tax. That's what I am anti.
ppflamingo
(made with recycled plastic) "

a teacher wrote on Apr 19, 2008 6:05 PM:

" PinkFlamingo-I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think that the "GREEN" lable is just another marketing ploy, like "ORGANIC". What I don't get is this. "GREEN" actually makes a lot of economic sense. Remember when WALMART announced that it was going "green". They said that going "green" saves energy costs which translates into more profits. This is why I am baffled by the politizing of the issue. Take "energy efficient" bulbs. They use, what-a quater of the energy and last 100 times longer. Seems like a deal to me. Why didn't Detroit invent the Prius? With gas approaching $4 a gallon it seems practical. They sure seem to be selling, why aren't American companies reaping in the profits? Why does the government resist setting milage standards so high? Seems logical to me - use less gas, save money, less cash to the petro-terrorists, help keep the environment from being polluted. This could be a win/win situation, but everyone fights it. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 20, 2008 10:55 AM:

" I haven't heard of anyone complaining about WalMart green. As I have already said, the politicizing comes from the promotion of bad green ideas and socialist wealth transfer schemes. We would also have to send less $$ to the petro-terrorists if we could develop our own oil fields - there's another politicized issue.

Detroit has been working on greener vehicles and we are starting to see the results. I agree that they could do more. I also said that Prius is a marketing ploy and probably does not have an overall (automotive cradle to grave) lower carbon footprint because of the environmental costs of producing, disposing and recycling the batteries. It has been successful because Toyota is a marketing powerhouse. Prius does have its value as an interim step and experience gained in marketing alternative technologies.

Here's an example of problems achieving automotive green. The 1992 Honda Civic VX Hatchback weighed 2074 lbs. and had an EPA rating of 39 city/49 highway (2008 EPA standard - the 1992 rating was 48/55!) The new 2008 Honda Fit weighs 2432 lbs. and is 2008 EPA rated 28/34. The extra weight is the problem. More safety features (side crash beams, dual air bags) and comfort demands (everyone wants standard A/C and power locks, windows, etc.) Source: AutoWeek magazine, April 21 issue - which you should read, it's their first of two automotive green issues.

That Sharpton/Robertson commercial is an Al Gore production. "Tear down your big houses and sell your big SUVs, Al Gore, and then you might establish some credibility." "

a teacher wrote on Apr 20, 2008 1:20 PM:

" Aww, PinkFlamingo, this is the part that depresses me. I basically agree with you, but you want to argue about the details. I think that if Mr. Gore gave away all of his possesions and walked around in monks robes, people would still find something to pick at. I say argue with the message, not the messanger. I had one of those Honda's. BEST CAR EVER! Too small for 4 kids though. Fine with me if they drill in ANWAR or off the coast. 250,000 years from now, no one will ever know they were there. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 21, 2008 8:29 AM:

" That's easy. I do argue with Al Gore's message, especially the part where he said anyone who doesn't believe him must also think the earth is flat. Seeing Al penniless in monks robes would be a good start towards his regaining some credibility. What has Al done to really do some good, I mean besides making a movie with fake charts and formulas? Oh, I almost forgot, he invented the internet . . . "

JimClark wrote on Apr 21, 2008 9:11 AM:

" If 70% of the Earth is water, and 70% of the human body is water, what do you think about population growth? "

Sandra wrote on Apr 21, 2008 11:07 AM:

" Vocal de local states, "I'm confused. At one time, the concern about the plight of third world countries was not a priority for conservatives. It's as though some role reversal has taken place here, where extreme conservatives are so anti-environmentalist that they are riding a wagon, not out of any real conviction, but just for the sake of being oppositional defiant about the environmental movement. " That is just laughable....what has conservatism, liberalism, or any political affiliation have to do with how one feels about environmentalism? Why must every one be put in a box based on some stances thay take. Talk about group think run amouk....
"

Madison Jay Hamilton wrote on Apr 21, 2008 11:03 PM:

" One needn't have a Ph.D. to realize that global temperatures have risen quickly and dramatically. It's just a matter of time before everybody accepts that temperatures have risen. After that, it'll take even more time to convince those that now parrot corporate talking points to realize that human activities have contributed to global warming. Finally, probably far too late to prevent disasters around the globe, the most ignorant among us will come to realize that global warming is harmful to most plants and animals. It's all just a matter of time. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 22, 2008 6:39 AM:

" The evidence of rapid temperatue buildup is inconclusive unless you're looking at one of Al Gore's hockey stick charts. It is just a matter of time until we can see if there is global warming or not, and if it is human global warming or not. Until then, we should do our best for the environment, without resorting to crazy programs and social engineering schemes.

I am not connected by employment or investment with any large or even a medium sized corporation in any way. Flamingos are not parrots. I do my own thinking for myself. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 22, 2008 8:08 AM:

" Madison, please tell me how the martians have contributed to the temperature rise on their planet. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 22, 2008 12:40 PM:

" "Madison, please tell me how the martians have contributed to the temperature rise on their planet. "

You are surely not trying to link temperature changes on Mars to Earth, Sandra. It's a different planet, with a different orbit, a different geology and atmosphere. As far as we know, there is no life there. We only have 50 years of detailed data on it. Any attempt to generalize Mars climate changes to Earths is just plain BAD science. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 22, 2008 1:15 PM:

" And how many years evidence of global warming on earth do we have? I mean real evidence that has been peer reviewed, not junk science fed by formulas that end up with hockey stick charts no matter what data is entered. The answer: less than the evidence we have on Mars. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 22, 2008 5:25 PM:

" Well, PinkFlamingo, my understanding is that with things like tree ring samples and ice core samples from Greenland and Antartica it is possible to get an acurate picture of the Earth's climate that goes back thousands if not millions of years. This is peer reviewed, well established data. The question, as I understand it is not is the Earth warming, but why is the Earth warming. The science seems to indicate a warming trend that has accerated since the 19th century. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 22, 2008 7:30 PM:

" Not bad science at all. Activity from the sun is raising temperatures on mars. But my goodness that couldn't be part of what we are experiencing here, now could it.? Nope, only us humans are awsome enough to instigate planet wide climate change. We are just that powerful. All of the past warming trends of our planet must of been from us also...I am still trying to figure out what early man did. Maybe it was his diet, and an excess of methane production? Or maybe those stone tools created excess warmth from the friction of knapping them? I also refer you to this web sight. It has a pretty good article on some latest findings...
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?re "

Sandra wrote on Apr 22, 2008 7:34 PM:

" Oh, and to make it easier, when you reach this gov. sight, type in Global Warming on the search engine for the sight. Not the one at the top of the page, but the next one down. I wouldn't want to tax anyones ability at doing a search ;) "

a teacher wrote on Apr 22, 2008 8:33 PM:

" Not really, Sandra. One(1) scientist believes that Mars' apparent warming is caused by increased solar output. Other scientists have alternate explanations. For instance,many believe that it is the variations in Mars' orbit and tilt that account for temperature variations. It's the same with Earth - look up Milankovitch Cycles. Another explanation is that dust storms on Mars Lower the albedo (light reflection) and cause Mars to absorb more heat. Charles Long, from the Department of Energy, published a study that shows that the Earth is recieving 4% to 6% less sun light. Other studies show that more light is being reflected off the Earth (thus less is converted into heat) - Robert Charlson, Univ. of Washington. I go back to my original comment: Mars is another planet and generalizing what happens with Mars' current climate to the Earth's current climate is bad science. BTW, I got all this imformation by gogooling "Global Warming" as you suggested. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 23, 2008 6:42 PM:

" "BTW, I got all this imformation by gogooling 'Global Warming' ..." See I knew you could do it. And you acted as if this wasn't possible when it was a subject you didn't wish to be informed on....but anyway, I happen to agree with you. I especially agree with "It's the same with Earth ". My science wasn't any worse than a lot of the "science" I see. There is a vast amount of unverifiabled data, that many scientists all disagree about. This is my point. I think the environmentalist movement has an overwhelming amount of human arrogance. I think that the main front men we see and hear from in the media are making an awful lot of money at our expense. I thnk the whole carbon tax is a useless undertaking, as the main polluters will probably be exempt from it. The idea that we here in the U.S. have any control over what will happen concerning global warming is ludicrous. I live my daily life trying to leave a small footprint. If we all did that, we may make a very, very, small bit of difference..... Not enough difference to matter much. It is not an environmental issue. It is a global economy isuue. If third world countries lived better lives, they could have time to care about carbon emissions. Until they do, we better get ready for whatever comes. And from my persective, it will probably not destroy civilization as we know it. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 23, 2008 8:49 PM:

" Well there certainly is enough arrogance to go around. Years ago I took students on a rafting trip on the Snake River. The boatman was lecturing us about the plans for the dams on the river and how we were destroying the river and life on earth, etc, blah, blah blah. The inner contarian in me took over and I asked him:"Do you think the dams will be there in 250,000 years?" He said:"No". I continued:"Will the river?" I was then branded an anti-environmentalist, evil conservative (me?). Yes, some in the environmental movement are arogant, as are some in the other camp. As to why we should do something, there was an interesting article in the NY Times over the weekend, "With our lifestyle, why bother." It makes a pretty good case for doing something. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 23, 2008 11:23 PM:

" As for the money making angle, I doubt it. I'm sure money is being made, but most of the environmentalist I've met are true believers and not in it for some ulterior motive. I also reject the "scientist are in it to keep their job" line I often hear. Please! I know people who do the science, they are responding to what the data tells them. The guys on the other side have a few points, but I don't find them convincing and it certainly doesn't help for them to imply that you are either a fool or lazy for not believing them. I just figure that it can't hurt to take care my little corner of planet Earth. "

Sandra wrote on Apr 24, 2008 6:06 PM:

" teacher, I have no doubt that the rank and file environmentalists are "True" believers and not into it for money. It is definitely a faith driven vehicle, and I believe they believe they are saving the earth. It's the "Al Gores" of the movement I am speaking of when I say they are financially motivated. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 24, 2008 8:28 PM:

" Al Gore in it for the money? He doesn't seem the type. I would lump him in the true believer catagory, the environment seems to have been a passion of his for many years. If he happened to make money off his movie, what of it, this is America, land of the free market. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 24, 2008 9:58 PM:

" Al Gore is in it for Al Gore, pure and simple. After 2000 he had no other reasonable way to keep his name out in front of people. While he may believe some of what he is pushing, he obviously doesn't believe in it 100% since he is known to own large SUVs and large homes. But it is his right to do so, just as much as it is his right to make money from his movie. Even Michael Moore is entitled to make money from his shameful garbage. It is also my right to inconveniently point out their untruths and hypocrisy. I guess I'm just jealous. I wish I had the nerve to put out such drivel and make millions from it, all the time laughing at the hoopleheads who paid to see it.
"

Bill wrote on Apr 27, 2008 1:01 PM:

" Concerned about air quality, water quality, open space, wilderness or any conservation issue? Aw, just another environmental left wing, fascist, commie wacko. Mention anything that relates to regulating human use or destructive behavior and automatically become a socialist or suspected fellow traveler. Al Gore? Well if you don’t like the message shoot the messenger.

Polarization about AGW (a terrible acronym designed to curtail not expand thought) with the idea it is either conservative or liberal and therefore the domain of American political party dogma is foolish. It represents the hardened and inflexible attitude of all the argumentative processes that influence current political culture. It is the us against them blindness that lumps everyone with a different opinion or thought into a narrow category that must be defended as an absolute with no wavering but strict lock step discipline.

The sudden concern for the starving of the world is touching and linking it to the largess of Exxon Corporation more so. I’m surprised that PG&E was not mentioned for its advocacy of nuclear power plants built and operated at taxpayer expense. Let’s not confuse the issue though; people are starving because of AGW the latest blogohysterical emoticon.

It’s really all those leftwing doubters of the unrestricted free market and unregulated economic globalization advocates that are the sinister evil doers in the AGW scenario. If you don’t think exactly like I do you must be a polarized wacko and therefore an ignorant and elitist, all very conducive to informative thought.

There is not much here that could sway legitimate thought on any part of the issue but plenty that forces polarization around a pro and anti dogma.
"

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 27, 2008 8:24 PM:

" When they can't respond with a defense of AlGore they accuse me of 'shooting the messenger'. Well I have explained before but here it is again: AlGore has attacked those of us who do not drink his KoolAid, those of use who dare to question his evidence by calling us flat-earthers and accusing us of being dumb. If Al can't rely on critical scrutiny of his message without 'shooting' the disbelievers, then he makes himself a messenger with a target.

This is the same tactic that Michael Moore uses when the untruths and flaws in his mockumentaries are uncovered. He doesn't back up his so-called evidence, he just starts attacking those who are pointing out the discrepancies.

Therefore I lump Michael Moore (pun intended) with AlGore (one lump or two?) together as disreputable messengers of untruths, and if my saying so gets me accused of shooting messengers, then just wait a second while I reload.

By the way, I don't see this as a left-right argument, I see it as a truth-untruth argument. There are many people (and flamingos) on both sides of the aisle on this. "

a teacher wrote on Apr 27, 2008 9:01 PM:

" PinkFlamingo: I could defend Mr. Gore, but why bother? As I said before, I doubt anything I could say or he could do would change your mind (or any one else who thinks he's a fraud). "

Bill wrote on Apr 27, 2008 9:39 PM:

" Plasticpinky, Who Are, they? "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 28, 2008 1:05 AM:

" Bill asked: Who are "they"?

At 1:01PM of the 27th, you said "Al Gore? Well if you don’t like the message shoot the messenger.

At 1:20PM on the 20th, in a response to one of my posts, a teacher said "I think that if Mr. Gore gave away all of his possesions and walked around in monks robes, people would still find something to pick at. I say argue with the message, not the messanger."

OK, while you did not directly accuse me personally of shooting the messenger, both comments came directly after my posts about Al Gore, no other posts were in between. So it appeared to me that your 'messenger' comments were in response to my statements about Al. I stand corrected in part if you were not directly responding to me, but my post still stands as a response to those who think I am only attacking the messenger.

BTW, I still think the bit about Al walking around in monks robes evokes a hilarious mental picture . . .
ppflamingo "

a teacher wrote on Apr 28, 2008 9:23 AM:

" PinkFlamingo: I was envisioning pink robes and a shaved head... Seriously, I think people on both sides of this issue can find common ground. even if you think Mr. Gore is a self-promoting fraud, the basic message of "take care of the Earth" is hard to disagree with. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 28, 2008 10:59 AM:

" teacher:
On that we are in perfect agreement!
So sayeth the flock of recycled (I hope) plastic pink flamingos in my yard. "

Bill wrote on Apr 28, 2008 1:20 PM:

" plasticpinky you are enjoyable but don't flatter your self. The reference was general to almost all the posts and specific to N.B. and his opinion. "

plasticpinkflamingo wrote on Apr 28, 2008 2:02 PM:

" Bill:
You directed the question at me and so I answered it. Rather than feeling flattered, I feel exasperated. It seems that anyone who questions Al is charged with shooting the messenger. That is not a defense or a rebuttal, just a mere attempt at misdirection.
"

Sandra wrote on Apr 28, 2008 5:11 PM:

" In our household we do not think of Mr. Gore as a monk....we have nicknamed him the "Green God Gore", or "triple G" for short. I picture him as more of a Hulk like figure bullying everyone that does not hold his same viewpoint......I think it more aptly fits his behavior, also much more amusing than the shaved head and robe image... "

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