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Stalled sales unify Napa’s auto row dealers
Lianne Milton/Register
The days of hometown loyalty are gone when it comes to car buying. Napa residents make only about a quarter of new vehicle purchases in town, and it’s costing Napa’s auto row dealers — and the city’s budget — millions. | Buy photos
Friday, March 23, 2007
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When a Napa car dealer scans the license plate frames in local parking lots, the sight is a depressing one. The vast majority of the frames promote dealers in other towns.

According to city statistics, Napa County residents are making only 27 percent of their new vehicle purchases from the Soscol Avenue’s auto row.
Customers were once a loyal bunch, forming a bond with local dealers that lasted a lifetime, said Ed Barwick, a Napa Chrysler dealer for 41 years.

Those days are no more, Barwick said. “The word ‘loyal’ doesn’t exist,” he said.
The city of Napa puts a price on that disloyalty. Locals have been buying 4,500 vehicles out of county each year, representing $127 million in lost sales.

If everyone bought locally, Napa would reap an extra $1.27 million in sales tax annually.
Even if out-of-county sales could be cut in half, the payoff for the financially pressed city would be huge. Napa could expand services to residents, instead of cutting them.

At the city’s suggestion, Napa’s six new-car dealers have begun to talk about how to cooperatively boost sales and improve conditions along Soscol.

Dealers concede they have their work cut out for them. Napa’s auto row was built in the 1950s and ’60s. Once a cutting edge concept, the auto row must now compete against the auto mall, a tighter congregation of dealerships springing up in nearby cities.

Too often, locals head to the auto mall first, not giving Napa dealers a chance to show their wares and negotiate on price, said Scott Jenson, president of Jenson Motor Center on Soscol.

The public’s perception that things are rosier at the auto mall is the biggest problem, said Bob Kleis, associate general manager at Jimmy Vasser Chevrolet-Toyota.

“The perception is they will get a better price out of town and it’s not true,” Kleis said.

Local dealers may not have the inventory of the biggest out-of-county dealerships, but they have more vehicles in stock than motorists can see from Soscol, said Kevin Massie, president of Napa Ford.

In most cases, a dealer can deliver a vehicle equipped to the customer’s specifications within a day or two, Massie said.

Dealers are discussing ways of branding Napa’s auto row the way dealers in other communities tout new auto malls. There is talk of street banners and a shared Web site for listing used vehicles.

City may ease up

While they look at new ways of marketing themselves, dealers said they also need the city’s help. The city’s sign ordinance is too restrictive, while street tree plantings often obscure motorists’ views of their car lots, they said.

“We’re not saying take down the trees. We just want them tuned up,” Jenson said.

“It’s a real touchy subject,” Kleis said. “Nobody wants to mess with the trees.”

Dealers said the city prohibits pole signs more than six feet tall. All the taller signs date from earlier times when regulations were not as restrictive.

Cassandra Walker, the city’s economic development manager, agreed that rules for auto signs may need modifying. The needs of a auto dealer are “fundamentally different from a Target,” she said.

The city has big plans to make Soscol a more prominent entrance to downtown, with new businesses and residences. To improve circulation and fix drainage problems, the city is creating a redevelopment project to pay for the work.

Walker said she asked for regular meetings with the car dealers after “everybody kept accusing us of wanting to move auto row,” which is “not correct.”

The city stands to benefit greatly if Napa dealers can move more cars, trucks and SUVs. For every vehicle sale made out of county, Napa loses $280 on average in sales tax.

“I’m not sure the city understood the number of vehicles not being purchased here until recently,” Kleis said. “It was an eye-opener to everyone.”

Mike Parness, Napa’s new city manager, said he was surprised that dealers are providing only 8 percent of the city’s sales tax revenue. Auto sales rank sixth as a source of sales tax, after general retail, transportation, restaurants, department stores and building materials. In many cities, auto sales rank second, he said.

“I need to learn about this market. What gives? What potential is there and what changes can be made,” Parness said.

Napa dealers cannot satisfy customers of certain makes and models. Napa County has no Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or Lexus franchises.

Except for Volvo, Cadillac and Lincoln, manufacturers of luxury brands prefer to sell from a limited number of Bay Area dealerships, Kleis said.

Both dealers and the city have talked about someday creating a new auto mall in Napa, but no firm proposals have emerged. An auto mall would require at least 20 acres, Walker said.

The ideal location, dealers say, would be at the junction of Highways 29/121 at the highway entrance to town, but this area is not in the city and is not zoned for commercial use.

A second-best alternative might be near the Napa County Airport, where Jamieson Canyon Road hits Highway 29, but this site is too close to Vallejo dealerships and would violate manufacturer siting standards, they said.

The airport zone is also in the county, which would reap the sales tax benefits of an auto mall located there.

A third-best location might be Highway 221, south of Napa State Hospital, dealers said.

Creating an auto mall would be a long-term proposition, dealers said. Many dealers own their buildings on Soscol, while others are in leases of various length.

It’s expensive to open a new dealership, Kleis said. Jimmy Vasser will be spending $6 million to build a new Toyota dealership on Soscol. It will be the first new dealership on Soscol in 30 years.
48 comment(s)

I looked elsewhere wrote on Mar 23, 2007 6:35 AM:

" I found the car I wanted on the internet. Bought it, had it shipped here right to my door.. And cheaper than the dealers here.. "

register selling out wrote on Mar 23, 2007 6:45 AM:

" this should say "paid advertisement" at the top of this page. i hope i can make the news and boost sales by bribing the register when my company isnt doing so well. i wonder if they offered register employees an "incentive" for printing this article? "

Debbie wrote on Mar 23, 2007 8:01 AM:

" Loyalty is a two-way street. My family over the years has bought at least 6 vehicles from the Napa dealerships, only to be repaid by poor service, slippery salesmanship, and an unwillingness to honor car warantees. If the Napa dealerships are having trouble with customer loyalty, they should check out the mirror. Loyalty is earned, not automatically given. "

vince wrote on Mar 23, 2007 8:10 AM:

" The only car dealer I would trust in Napa is Ed Barwick. Perhaps the rest of the dealers should take note. "

Common Sense wrote on Mar 23, 2007 8:24 AM:

" That's funny...in the article, Kleis says, "The perception is they will get a better price out of town and it’s not true”. My wife and I have always tried to buy our vehicles in Napa first, but they are always a FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS more expensive! I'll be loyal, but not THAT loyal! "

Parking Woes wrote on Mar 23, 2007 8:55 AM:

" Maybe if I could find parking to look at the cars (in one pass without having to u-turn) I would stop and perhaps get hooked... "

Napkin wrote on Mar 23, 2007 8:59 AM:

" Customer Service in this town SUCKS! I have purchased two cars now out of town because two local and well known dealers here gave me a line of crap and told me I could not get the financing I wanted. On top of that, they were not even motivated to sell a vehicle before we talked financing. Needless to say, I purchased a Honda and Toyota respectively out of town, got financing from each car manufacturer and am a very happy customer. The Toyota dealership even had a very nice catered dinner for new owners and wanted to insure that CUSTOMER SERVICE was their main focus. In Napa, Customer Service is non existent and seems to be a dirty word. So, I don't want to hear, "Yes, but it's Napa" rhetoric either. If this town wants to be "world class" the in better find a way to treat potential customers, homeowners, and business owners right. This problem extends beyond the automobile sellers here..it is part of Napa's dysfuntional culture. So, if you want to buy a car, please don't go to Napa..that is what the body language and treatment of people here get from people who just want to sell goods but not services. Go figure! "

Cathy E wrote on Mar 23, 2007 9:10 AM:

" Several years ago while car shopping in Napa I was met with what could best be described as a “take it or leave it” attitude. At one dealership the owner of the business was just outright rude. I now buy out of town. "

Roger wrote on Mar 23, 2007 9:40 AM:

" Napa is to elite to buy here anymore. The town is for the rich and not the middle class or poor. Our thanks can be made to city officials ans leaders like Ed Henderson who wanted through his term as mayor to make Napa a "World Class City" a tradidition thid do nothing "Madame Mayor" upholds and continues. Thanks Napa officials like Ed Barwick said, "Loyalty is no more." A long ago Napa is gone forever and that goes for every locality. "

Car Dealers Dreaming wrote on Mar 23, 2007 9:56 AM:

" Paid advertisement is right. These guys continue to put across their feeble belief that its the Napa consumers that have turned disloyal and that everyone and everything is to blame except the obvious - they've been gouging us for years. Sure, I bought out of town after contacting a local dealership first. In Fairfield, they were willing to negotiate on my all-cash purchase and the level of service I've received since has been stellar. What did the Napa dealer (who I know personally) tell me? "There's no way they sold it to you for that price". Pull your heads out of the sand and ask yourselves why dealers like Zumwalt still have customer loyalty. "

autoguy wrote on Mar 23, 2007 9:58 AM:

" Fixing up auto row needs to be the #1 priority of the Soscol gateway Improvement project. Auto rows can be a sign of prosperity if it's done right. As it is now the crummy strip brings down the business of the whole town, not just the dealers. These dealers bring this on themselves. The whole strip of Soscol looks like a used car lot with all the pennants and sale signs. And my experience with shopping these dealers has not been good. When buying two new cars I visited a local dealer both times, only to be given the "hard sell" to move something off their lot that I didn't even want. The city can help by leaving those curb trees alone and fill the center "suicide" lane with a median strip with plantings. The dealers can help by fixing up their antiquated buildings and taking down all the cheesy sale signs. How about being part of the solution instead of contributing to the problem? "

never again wrote on Mar 23, 2007 10:40 AM:

" I bought one car in Napa and had nothing but problems--the service was horrible, the dealership attempted to get out of the warranty until I protested directly to the manufacturer. Even after that experience, I have browsed for new cars on Napa. I have found that if you are a woman, and car shopping alone in Napa, you are not taken seriously. Since that experience, I have bought five cars--all from out of town dealers--I have never been treated as poorly anywhere as I have in Napa. By the way, I bought my last car by myself, out of town, and paid in full on the spot--within the last year--sorry Napa, but if I felt I could support the local car economy, I would. "

no selection wrote on Mar 23, 2007 10:46 AM:

" I went to Napa dealerships first. They didn't have the car I wanted, didn't know if or when it would come in, and didn't act like they even cared. I drove to Santa Rosa and had 16 to pick from at one dealership. I drove it home the same day. "

Call Zumwalt wrote on Mar 23, 2007 11:21 AM:

" I have tried to buy a car from the local Ford dealer the last 3 cars / trucks I have bought and all three times could not strike a deal, I then went to Zumwalt in Saint Helena and they quote me a price thousands lower than Napa. Last year I even took the price back to Napa and asked them if they could match it and was told "there is no way they are selling you that truck for that price, heck, we pay more than that from the factory". Not sure how a small town dealer like Zumalt car save me tons of maney and do it with a smile but they do. "

Napan wrote on Mar 23, 2007 11:37 AM:

" Kastner has always been pretty good to us. A friend of ours bought a honda somewhere else in the east bay and received worse service than what we get at Kastner. "

Ms. Highlander wrote on Mar 23, 2007 12:13 PM:

" I unfortunately purchased my car in Napa and the service was the worst by far. My only satisfaction was having 3 of my friends purchase the same vehicle I had purchased in Napa, purchase their vehicles from an out of town dealership after learning about my horrible, non customer service experience at the Napa dealership. Loyalty is earned and when you say something to a customer you need to be honest and back it up. This certainly did not happen when I purchased my Toyota vehicle! "

Marla wrote on Mar 23, 2007 12:57 PM:

" Napa County Sales tax is 7.75%. I always buy my cars in Lake County...half percent less sales tax. Last year when they tried to raise the sales tax for Jameson Canyon none of the Napa car dealers fought it so I guess they just don't care. "

new truck wrote on Mar 23, 2007 1:32 PM:

" My wife went looking for a new truck. She was so disgusted with the attitude and the lack of cooperation at the Dodge and Ford dealerships she went to Santa Rosa and came back with the truck she wanted for 5000 less. And with out being treated less for being a woman. "

Like the rest wrote on Mar 23, 2007 2:38 PM:

" I agree with the previous comments. My family and I have had nothing but grief with the dealerships in town-both in trying to purchase vehicles and to have them serviced. For service we all travel out of town now. It is worth the travel time to not be treated the way we have. Maybe if the dealerships worked on their people skills and treating women as competent, they might have more business. "

James R. wrote on Mar 23, 2007 3:09 PM:

" I was in the market for a Honda Civic a few years back. With the internet I was able to have various regional dealers bid on the price they could sell me the car for. The Honda dealership in town was by far the highest of all 7 tested. I really wanted to give the Kastner dealership my business but they refused to sell the car at a lower price. This also happened at the Jimmy Vasser's Toyota dealership in town. The bottom line is people will not purchase an automobile in this town or any other town for that matter if it's overpriced by hundreds to thousands of dollars. "

Dealers take note! wrote on Mar 23, 2007 3:10 PM:

" I really hope the dealers see this. "

PROUD NAPA HONDA CUSTOMER wrote on Mar 23, 2007 3:27 PM:

" I BOUGHT A HONDA ACCORD 2 YEARS AGO AT KASTNER AND HAVE BEEN VERY HAPPY WITH THE SERVICE I GET FROM THEM ALL THE WAY AROUND. I WALKED INTO THE SERVICE DEPARTMENT YESTERDAY ON MY WAY TO WORK WITH A COUPLE ISSUES EXPECTING TO MAKE A APPOINTMENT NEXT WEEK FOR THE COUPLE PROBLEMS THAT WERE GOING TO BE COVERED UNDER MY WARRANTY. ELY IN THE SERVICE DEPARTMENT SAID THEY WERE ABLE TO LOOK AT MY CAR THAT DAY. MY PROBLEMS WERE FIXED WITH THE EXCEPTION OF 1 PART NEEDING TO BE ORDERED. I GOT GREAT SERVICE AND AM VERY HAPPY WITH MY LOCAL NAPA DEALER. "

Same story wrote on Mar 23, 2007 5:13 PM:

" Pretty much have the same story as the rest. Tried to by in Napa but treated poorly by salesmen who knew nothing about their product. Bought one new car here a few years ago, had many problems with the car and the dealer was not helpfull at all. You dealers cut your own throats and now your whining. Lower your prices, treat people with some respect and train your salesmen about your products. Then service what you sell...... "

Dissaisfied Customer wrote on Mar 23, 2007 5:17 PM:

" After explaining to two local auto dealers how anxious I was to support local business, and would be a customer every two years, one announced that they did not have the car that I wanted to test drive, and never returned phone calls. The second dealer's sales manager and salesman tried to financially "stick it to me." I drove 1/2 hour, got exactly the car I wanted for over $1000 less than in Napa, with an interest rate 66% lower than quoted by the Napa dealer. Napa dealers need to treat their customers better, give better deals, stop crying "poor us" and thinking that larger , flashier signs will cure their problems of poor customer service and lousy prices. "

Typical wrote on Mar 23, 2007 5:30 PM:

" The same as the above, High prices, Bad attitude, Once got my car serviced down there and that was even not correctly done and awefull customer service "the women behind the counter just said 450" no please and not even a 450 dollars please.. Go to Fairfeild and its friendly and fun! "

Dan wrote on Mar 23, 2007 6:35 PM:

" 3 bids for my truck. Out of town, $3000 less............What more can I say. "

Happy2buyNapa wrote on Mar 23, 2007 7:26 PM:

" I just bought my 4th car from Jimmy Vasser Toyota and had a wonderful experience. Got a great car at a great price- did my homework on the internet and knew what to ask for price-wise. I got a wonderful deal on the car I wanted and was treated with respect and professionalism from my salesman, Cavan Pahlavan, and the sales manager,Geoffrey Petersen. The night I picked it up I was thanked for my business personally by the owner, Jimmy Vasser himself!I have also used the service department and they are courteous and thorough. I hope to patronize this dealership for many years to come. "

Stacy Marvelous wrote on Mar 23, 2007 9:54 PM:

" Lets see if this makes sense, you want people to be loyal to their city when buying a car. How can you actually expect that when most everyone is not even loyal to their own country when they buy a automobile. Look around, people are buying automobiles from countries that were our enemies in WW2, who sneak attacked us, put our troops through death marches and operated death camps that killed millions and you expect these same people who drive those foreign cars to be loyal to Napa and buy it there, you're dreaming. "

not sure YET wrote on Mar 23, 2007 9:59 PM:

" I just purchased a Toyota from Jimmy. I feel ok about the purchase, but not GREAT, which I was hoping for (my first new car purchase ever). I feel that they rushed me through the process and I was not taken seriously on many occasions. I did get a fantastic deal and I will visit them again for my next purchase, but next time needs to FEEL like a GREAT purchasing experience or I'm looking elsewhere. GETTING A GREAT DEAL AND KNOWING IT is the real reason why customers will come back no matter the trees or parking or whatever issues. "

John Richards wrote on Mar 23, 2007 10:25 PM:

" First of all, there is no connection between sales and service, so I don't know why so many people mention the two in the same breath. A given dealership can have a great price but a lousy service shop, and vice versa. Secondly, I disagree with several points made in the article. Buyers will get a better price out of town. When I was ready to buy my latest new car, a 2006 Honda Accord, I used the Internet to get price quotes from the nearest 12 Honda dealers. The quote from the Napa dealer was one of the highest, and he wasn't willing to come down. The Vallejo dealer was willing to match the lowest quote I got, so Vallejo got my business. Also, I don't care about a fancy auto mall. It won't influence my decision as to where to buy. "

advertise this wrote on Mar 23, 2007 10:51 PM:

" Katsner is the best forget the rest. A satisfied customer. "

out of town buyer wrote on Mar 23, 2007 11:00 PM:

" Bought a great car at Walnut creek dealer for $2000 less than was offered in Napa. In and out the door in 60 minutes in Walnut Creek. Haggling in Napa with HUGE guilt trip applied when asking to lower price..."we won't be able to stay in business if we sell you that car at that price!" I saw the same car sit on the lot for weeks afterwards and the salesperson kept calling me and begging me to come back down as I was driving around in my new car from out of town. "

My two cents worth wrote on Mar 24, 2007 8:38 AM:

" The last car I bought was in Napa and it will be the last car I buy in Napa. The sales manager attempted to alter, rearrange the numbers, of the price of my trade in. Like he thought I wouldn't notice. You do have to be more careful if you're a woman, at some places. The level of service in their service department was horrid. So I've been going for years to another dealer out of county. Their service and customer service are outstanding. No question where I'll be buying my next car. "

Check them out first wrote on Mar 24, 2007 9:32 AM:

" I wish I had checked out the Better Business Bureau site before I bought my car. The information on that site would have scared me off the dealership I bought from. "

Sandra wrote on Mar 24, 2007 11:40 AM:

" HONDA KASTNER....I agree, great service, fair prices, friendly sales people who answer all question honestly (Believe me, I checked). "

LeftyLimblog wrote on Mar 25, 2007 10:16 AM:

" My wife and I bought our last car, a Toyota Prius in Napa after checking the prices out-of-town and on the internet. The price was the same at every dealer because of a Toyota marketing campaign. However Prius cars were on allocation, and I was told there was a 3 month waiting period, the car showed up in 3 weeks much to our suprise! The car has been solid and the service at the Napa dealer has been very good. Most progressives will at least give local people a crack at our business, and we expect and deserve 'hometown' treatment. So my advice, as a hometown shopper, to Napa dealers is to improve customer service to the point that customers know they won't get better treatment elsewhere and look to the future... pressure your manufacturers to come up with cars that go farther on ever more expensive fuel. Even Toyota Prius cars can be made more fuel efficient as 'plug-in hybrids' and add a 'flex-fuel' option. -- Lefty!!! "

Leszek Szmidt wrote on Mar 25, 2007 10:18 AM:

" Our family has purchased numerous cars during the past 60 years. We've shopped out of town, but when it came down to it 90% of our cars were purchased at Kastner, Vintage (now Jim Vasser), or Jensen. 3 of our cars were from out of town. "

Max wrote on Mar 25, 2007 4:53 PM:

" Toyota Prius? It's a simple economic fact, compared to a vehicle with a typical gas engine the increased fuel economy will never recoup the cost. It's nothing but a pretense and a show off. "

Sorry wrote on Mar 25, 2007 9:09 PM:

" Tried to buy my honda in town but dealership in Vacaville was over $2000 less and the deal was completed in less than 1 hour. I can't afford to be that loyal to Napa dealerships. "

A car guy wrote on Mar 26, 2007 11:20 AM:

" The Napa Auto Dealers have their work cut out for them. The facts need to be brought to the citizens that overall, the dealers in Napa make less per car than other Bay Area dealers. The large Auto Mall in Fairfield was just purchased for over 30 million dollars (land not included) and the reality is that the customers are paying for that blue sky value. The dealers need to show the Napa citizens that they will earn their business with good service and fair pricing. "

old napan wrote on Mar 26, 2007 1:59 PM:

" How funny, Lefty, that you characterize "progressives" as being the only ones to support local businesses. From my observations the opposite is more likely to be true. Napa was at one time a very conservative, close-knit community, a good family place. I'm sure all that just makes your progressive skin crawl. Back then was when local businesses flourished, along with a real sense of community. Now there has been an influx of "progressives" and guess what? Local businesses have mostly died out. "

Loyal? wrote on Mar 27, 2007 5:58 PM:

" To read the that the dealerships are complaining that Napans are no longer loyal is stunning to me. My experiences with Napa car dealers have all been nightmares. From stupidly refusing to negotiate a fair price to ignoring the fact that they have clods occupying the service shops, the dealers in Napa show no concern or loyalty for the consumer. It is clear they are interested only in making a buck and so we consumers return that attitude by saving a buck and buying elsewhere. Good luck to them. "

Unbelievable wrote on Mar 28, 2007 8:58 AM:

" This is a joke. I can't believe what you people are saying here. I have bought two cars from Jimmy Vasser and so have my friends and they have only been treated fair and received great service and straight up pricing. Just because they are small doesn't mean you can't get a good deal.. WOW.. I have visited many car dealerships around the country and have never seen a dealer who treats their customers like Vasser does. I can't speak for the other Napa dealers, but I am truly amazed at some of these comments. "

WWII? wrote on Mar 29, 2007 5:20 AM:

" Wow...I guess that would make the silverado nieghborhood "Berlin" with all those BMW's and Mercedes bouncing around...It seems like people are really "proud" of being able to save a few hundred or even a "1000" by going out of town. wouldn't it make things difficult if you need work on your car and have to go out of town? A few hundred dollars over the span of payments is a few dollars a month for the convience of not having to go out of town. If i ever do buy a car...I'll give Napa a chance... "

Hybrids wrote on Mar 29, 2007 5:31 AM:

" Why do people like Max immediately disparage hybrids by putting it in economic terms. Maybe they don't recoup costs in saved gas...but overall they use less fossil fuels. Wouldn't it be a great idea if we all used less fossil fuels but maybe had to pay just a little more? "

Had to look elsewhere for great service wrote on Mar 29, 2007 10:49 AM:

" I have been a long time Napa resident, and unfortunately all of my cars have been purchased elsewhere due to the disrespectful attitude that I have encountered when trying to purchase locally. At one dealership, a salesman, made snide remarks when I was attempting to get information on three different cars in his lot by stating "why don't you buy all three?" as he walked off. Another looked me up and down and did not even greet me or assisted me when I asked for help. I bought my last two cars (Toyota 4Runner and Prius) in Roseville due to the wonderful service that I have received, yes it's a long drive but it was worth it. Now, if I would get that same service from local dealerships, I would definitely buy locally as I know it would benefit all of Napa. Maybe this information will help the local dealerships find ideas on how to treat us locals. "

LovemyMurano wrote on Mar 29, 2007 12:46 PM:

" I try to support local dealers whenever I can. We tried to purchase our last vehicle in Napa but was not impressed with the salesmans knowledge of the vehicle. While very nice, he couldn't answer our questions so we continued to look elsewhere and were able to find the vehicle we wanted on the lot in Petaluma. The salesman at the Petaluma Dealership was very knowledgable and was a longtime employee at the dealership. We made the purchase and I felt guilty driving by the Napa Dealership on my way home. I now have all my service work done here in Napa and couldn't be happier with the Service Department at Napa Nissan. It's too bad that their Salesman let them down. "

LeftyLimblog wrote on Mar 30, 2007 1:26 PM:

" A few responses to some posters on this thread. At $3.00 a gallon I am getting my moneys worth on my Prius. And the resale value of my Prius with HOV stickers is now higher than the purchase price. I'd say buying a Prius is a good move, especially if you believe that the price of gas will be going higher. A 'fill-up' costs me about half of our other car, and the Prius goes about 100 miles further on that same 'fill-up'. And as for "old napan", I did not say ONLY progressives shop locally -- YOU said ONLY. Just another example of dishonesty giving so-called "conservatives" a bad name. And I find many true conservatives are decent people and good neighbors. However, I am definitely glad that the true conservatives I know aren't as twisted with hatred as so many so-called "conservatives" are. Shame on you. --Lefty!!! "

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